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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2010.03.13 09:13:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 13/03/2010 09:13:36
Originally by: Allen Ramses
It'd be like them staining all of your windows yellow and then claiming that they made everything bluer.
ah, so you do understood how CCP works

Hamaa Kazula
Posted - 2010.03.13 09:24:00 - [32]
 

Maybe they are rolling the insurance changes out with the new mining systems they hinted at in fanfest. However, if this was the case id imagine we would have heard something since then as it would not be a small update.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:00:00 - [33]
 

They should remove insurance payouts for good.

Or just allow insurances only for newbies, like less than 3 month old characters...

Or if insurance mechanics is here to stay insurance payouts should really be more realistic like payments should be related to amount of ships destroyed, and also how many ships character has lost recently etc. No insurance company is going to keep paying insurances to someone if they just lose money.

ISellThingz
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:26:00 - [34]
 

If they want to lower the basic mineral costs, they have to supply us with something that will make it possible for miners to make money on, new manufacturing division agents or something, that will pay more then the insurance will. Otherwise miners are looking at 1/3 lower income.

And this won't stop suicide ganking.

Daiko Rei
Posted - 2010.03.13 10:30:00 - [35]
 

Can I remind certain posters in this thread that this thread is located in the Test Server FEEDBACK forum with a reason?
If anyone has a comment, or a complaint regarding a change that is currently live on the Test Server they have every right to leave their thoughts here.

Saying 'Your complaint is invalid because the patch is not even Live yet' is ******ed.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:38:00 - [36]
 

CCP buffing insurance for t2 ships. Wtf !?

I hope it wont last as it didnt before dominion.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.03.13 14:04:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
CCP buffing insurance for t2 ships. Wtf !?

I hope it wont last as it didnt before dominion.


Dominion increased the price of all T2 ships by a lot.

I'd see decent levels of T2 insurance being added as sort of a "rebate".

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.13 17:20:00 - [38]
 

Demol: Yes prices increased because rig prices decreased so people make more profit now....eitehr live with it or dont ^^

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.03.13 17:23:00 - [39]
 

im just going to point out that yall are assuming that miners will keep mining once they make less money? its just supply and demand if prices go down, great less people will mine and prices will go up. now i dont know how modual mins will work into this but its not just going to collapse. im sorry but thats just stupid, its a supply and demand market.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2010.03.13 17:30:00 - [40]
 

Not sure why suicide ganking keeps getting brought up. Its not a problem in need of a solution, and will happen as long as the option to shoot people in the face exists. And it will be profitable too, as long as people carry obscenely expensive goods in paper ships.

Though I don't get the point of these changes, at best it means less isk being generated out of thin air, but its too little too late.

If I could make changes:

- no insurance on capitals of any sort, period
- no basic 40% payouts in 0.0
- 3 policy options only, not based on coverage level but coverage duration (3 weeks, 6 weeks, 12 weeks)

Perhaps if you wanted to refine it a bit more you can add extra rules for FW and wars, but this would be the bare minimum.

sue denim
Posted - 2010.03.13 18:42:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
im just going to point out that yall are assuming that miners will keep mining once they make less money? its just supply and demand if prices go down, great less people will mine and prices will go up. now i dont know how modual mins will work into this but its not just going to collapse. im sorry but thats just stupid, its a supply and demand market.


that's not how it works.

First you'd be wrong in assuming that most minerals come from miners, cause they don't.

And second they will continue mining unless it hits true rock bottom. Sure some will go but the majority will continue, with no dent. If they want to switch to something else they have to get the skills and setup for it.

And again, miners don't supply most of the minerals in eve, and that's a damn shame really.

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2010.03.13 23:55:00 - [42]
 

Indeed, if everyone stopped mining tomorow there would probably still be enough minerals entering the game (with a couple of exceptions) via missions and the drone regions to supply the population's non-suicide-business needs.

DDemon
Volatile Instability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.03.14 00:40:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: DDemon on 14/03/2010 00:41:15
Mails with concord on the loss mail? no payout.
Self destruct? no payout.

Is it just me or would this be the perfect (simple) solution?
Loophole would be to get an alt to kill you but... It will take more time that way so less profitable.

Planetary Genocide
Gallente
White Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2010.03.14 04:54:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Planetary Genocide on 14/03/2010 04:53:54
Originally by: DDemon
Edited by: DDemon on 14/03/2010 00:41:15
Mails with concord on the loss mail? no payout.
Self destruct? no payout.

Is it just me or would this be the perfect (simple) solution?
Loophole would be to get an alt to kill you but... It will take more time that way so less profitable.


Well, you can get a corp member to do it too. no need for a second account then, though if you already have one then by all means go ahead.

Personally, I always thought that insurance payouts should be determined by mineral cost of the ship and the average price across the entire EVE universe of the minerals... and then that's what they pay out: enough money to buy the minerals to make the damn ship again. And since you still have to pay for the policy, insurance fraud becomes stupid unless you're mining the minerals yourself, in which case you have a lot better things to do, such as sell the minerals yourself. Suicide ganking will still profit, but it'll be a lot riskier since you don't know if that shuttle being flown by that idiot who's carrying a Titan BPO around will drop the goods or not.

/me waits for Sciencegeek deathdealer to flame me with egotism

EDIT: also, why are you buying insurance on SiSi anyways? It's SiSi...

Lani Sun
Posted - 2010.03.14 07:11:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Not sure why suicide ganking keeps getting brought up. Its not a problem in need of a solution, and will happen as long as the option to shoot people in the face exists. And it will be profitable too, as long as people carry obscenely expensive goods in paper ships.

Though I don't get the point of these changes, at best it means less isk being generated out of thin air, but its too little too late.

If I could make changes:

- no insurance on capitals of any sort, period
- no basic 40% payouts in 0.0
- 3 policy options only, not based on coverage level but coverage duration (3 weeks, 6 weeks, 12 weeks)

Perhaps if you wanted to refine it a bit more you can add extra rules for FW and wars, but this would be the bare minimum.
Youre a carebear right?

How about instead not allowing insurance in hisec at all or whilst the ship is in hisec.


JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.03.14 11:29:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 14/03/2010 19:58:28

Bree'orta
Posted - 2010.03.14 12:53:00 - [47]
 

forgive me, as i am not as self important as you lot but isnt SISI a test server? and as such its intents and purposes are for testing? i understand the need for constructive critisism but you lot are whining like an angry First wives club or something. Sure post your thoughts and opinions but unless its helpful dont bother a lot of us dont want to sift through multiple piles of pure s*** just to get a bit of info

something somethingdark
Posted - 2010.03.14 21:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Bree'orta
forgive me, as i am not as self important as you lot but isnt SISI a test server? and as such its intents and purposes are for testing? i understand the need for constructive critisism but you lot are whining like an angry First wives club or something. Sure post your thoughts and opinions but unless its helpful dont bother a lot of us dont want to sift through multiple piles of pure s*** just to get a bit of info



You see this is what years of folowing releases on the testserver being translated down to tq show us.
The earlyer there is mass whining about a subject that has been talked to death for years the earlyer they might actualy listen.

In this case there have been excellent proposals on what to do and how to handle insurance dating back years. Wichone did CCP go for ? The one that if standing alone is one of the worst possible ones ever. If it comes in conjuction with others it wont be "that" bad but its still only trying to cure symptoms rather than causes making the whole worse in the process.

After years of trying and trying and trying to be constructive about it most people simply give up, the others simply start whining early because they know what they are whining about.
(some people just whine for the fun of it though ;) )

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2010.03.14 21:11:00 - [49]
 

Can't wait for insurable t2 ships (CCP have talked enough about it that it is inevitable).

PeHD0M
Posted - 2010.03.14 23:01:00 - [50]
 

I suggest detaching the insurance from minerals, but not remove it. How?

Pay insurance with minerals instead of isk, and place them to medical clone station (or to Jita 4-4).

ollopa amnihs
Shut Up and P1ay
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.03.14 23:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: PeHD0M
I suggest detaching the insurance from minerals, but not remove it. How?

Pay insurance with minerals instead of isk, and place them to medical clone station (or to Jita 4-4).


Either this is a quality troll, or dr egghead alt posting.

Let's remove as much from the demand side of minerals as we can OK!

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2010.03.15 01:21:00 - [52]
 

Gentlemen please, there are threads in GD and MD discussing the merits of this change, and other potential changes that could be made... THIS thread it to find out if it's working as intended, especially along with the blueprint weirdness.

cyclobs
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.03.15 09:31:00 - [53]
 

how will lower insurence pay outs effect the cost of a ship.

ships cost isk to build. people build ships to make isk. why would they sell a ship thats worth less then the cost of the minerals they used to build it.

they'd be loosing isk, not making it

Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.03.15 10:06:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: cyclobs
how will lower insurence pay outs effect the cost of a ship.

ships cost isk to build. people build ships to make isk. why would they sell a ship thats worth less then the cost of the minerals they used to build it.

they'd be loosing isk, not making it


People constantly build and sell ships at a price point that is below the cost of minerals. Because "hey, if I mined the minerals myself, they are free, right?". Yes, people can be ******ed.

But that's not really the point. The point is that each ship has a soft price floor - about 70% of the platinum payout (so ship price + insurance fee ends up being cheaper than platinum insurance payout, making self-destructing of ships profitable). This "floor" is the only thing that is keeping mineral prices at the current levels - if insurance payout goes down, all the purchases made by self-destructing "insurance fraudsters" disappear. As there is massive oversupply of minerals, prices will go down until they hit the soft floor again - at the price point set by the new insurance levels - the point when "insurance fraudsters" start buying up ships/minerals that they can then turn into ISK and make a (small) profit out of the platinum insurance.

Marius Victor
Posted - 2010.03.15 19:50:00 - [55]
 

I have a few thoughts on Insurance...

1) Maybe only offer Insurance to chars within a certain SP range. This way it helps the learning players, but can't be exploited by older players.
2) Absolutely take away insurance payouts to any criminal activities, period.
3) Remove insurance all together and let it only be player run. Because honestly, Eve's insurance does not emulate real economics in any way shape or form when it is just an endless supply of payouts.
4) Decrease insurance payouts per loss. If a char keeps losing ship after ship after ship, make each insurance payout less and less. Call it a "high risk" penalty.

Thoughts?

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.03.15 19:54:00 - [56]
 

15-30 minute global cooldown on insurance payouts. I just solved the insurance fraud problem for you all.

I'm here all week. Try the veal.

Marius Victor
Posted - 2010.03.15 20:10:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
15-30 minute global cooldown on insurance payouts. I just solved the insurance fraud problem for you all.

I'm here all week. Try the veal.


Nice. Seems like a pretty damn effective idea. Maybe make it 45 minutes to an hour?

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.03.15 20:32:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Marius Victor
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
15-30 minute global cooldown on insurance payouts. I just solved the insurance fraud problem for you all.

I'm here all week. Try the veal.


Nice. Seems like a pretty damn effective idea. Maybe make it 45 minutes to an hour?


I believe to point is to stop the insurance fraud from being a profitable way to earn an income and not to take a dump on people who PvP a lot. Generally you want to encourage fighting and not force people to sit in a station to wait for an insurance timer to run out before they can get back to the fight. Any timer system should be as short as possible, so it just makes the fraud uncompetative against almost all other alternatives and doesn't interfere in normal gaming. Or you could actually fix the issue instead of focusing on the symptom and forget about timers.

Marius Victor
Posted - 2010.03.15 20:42:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Marius Victor
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
15-30 minute global cooldown on insurance payouts. I just solved the insurance fraud problem for you all.

I'm here all week. Try the veal.


Nice. Seems like a pretty damn effective idea. Maybe make it 45 minutes to an hour?


I believe to point is to stop the insurance fraud from being a profitable way to earn an income and not to take a dump on people who PvP a lot. Generally you want to encourage fighting and not force people to sit in a station to wait for an insurance timer to run out before they can get back to the fight. Any timer system should be as short as possible, so it just makes the fraud uncompetative against almost all other alternatives and doesn't interfere in normal gaming. Or you could actually fix the issue instead of focusing on the symptom and forget about timers.


Most pvpers I know don't insure their t2 ships as it is, and if they fly t1 they dont really care about the loss. Eve pvp is like poker in that respect. It's a gamble with your isk...

IMO they should just remove insurance completely and let it be player created. There's no point to it other than people whining when they lose ships.

RJ Nobel
Nobel Research and Development
Posted - 2010.03.15 21:05:00 - [60]
 

Ok, another thread, another attempt to explain how insurance affects Eve's economy. For those folks who see "insurance fraud" as a bad thing: there's nothing wrong with people using the insurance system for profit. The current profitability of insurance exchange (a more accurate term) is the result of CCP's three major adjustments to the mineral supply in the last year (veldspar buff following Unholy Rage, wormhole mineral supply, and Dominion sov changes). Here's a very simplistic explanation of insurance:

The theoretical system

Miners produce minerals Arrow industrialists produce ships Arrow PVP'ers consume ships

When the system is perfectly balanced, the output of carebears = the consumption of PVP'ers. Prices are stable and everyone is happy.

The actual system

Lots of miners produce minerals Arrow lots of industrialists produce ships Arrow a few PVP'ers consume ships

The output of the carebears is currently MUCH greater than the consumption of PVP'ers. Left unchecked, minerals and ships would accumulate on the market and prices would spiral downwards.

Where insurance exchange comes in

Lots of miners produce minerals Arrow lots of industrialists produce ships Arrow a few PVP'ers consume a few ships Arrow insurance exchangers consume the rest of the ships

Insurance exchange is the safety valve for the mineral economy - when supply hits a critical level, where prices fall below insurance levels, then insurance exchange kicks in to remove the excess minerals. Insurance exchange is a necessary balancing mechanism intentionally supported by CCP, not an exploit or a reward for gankers.

I hope and expect that the insurance changes on SISI are just a small part of CCP's overall plan to rebalance the mineral economy. Planetary interaction seems to be the perfect opportunity to introduce new mineral sinks and rebalance the overall system.




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