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Retail Therapy
Posted - 2010.03.12 21:48:00 - [1]
 

Are differences in insurance payouts on test part of testing or an unintended test server anomaly? Any dev feedback appreciated.

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2010.03.12 22:17:00 - [2]
 

looks like they want to reduce the net value of everything in eve, with this... DEV Reply would be nice.

Companion Trollin
You are going too fast
Posted - 2010.03.12 22:28:00 - [3]
 

cue panic selling.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2010.03.12 23:52:00 - [4]
 

somebody plz save CCP from themselves...! (before we all head out for starcraft2)

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.03.12 23:54:00 - [5]
 

[joke]EVE isn't cake now[/joke] Very Happy

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:00:00 - [6]
 

Can anyone tell whats the actual change ?

justin666
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:06:00 - [7]
 

i think the current changes on sisi are just plain stupid.............

Matalino
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:34:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Can anyone tell whats the actual change ?
Not yet. All that I can tell you is that each ship seems to be different. I haven't tested too many ships, but I have found atleast one Tech 2 ship that has had its insurance payout more than doubled.

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:37:00 - [9]
 

In reference to another thread:
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Here is the difference for a Rifter. And Hurricane.
I ran the numbers on this, and I must say I am appalled. Instead of refining the insurance formula, they simply reduced the base price of the ships by 31.7%. The net insurance rates are identical.

Congratulations, CCP. Once again, you "fixed" an observed by-product of a problem and did absolutely nothing to remedy the real issue. I'd be surprised, but after 2 years of this short-sighted garbage, I would have been surprised if you had actually done something right (for once).

I give the "solution" 3 months before we're at the exact same place we are now.

Aera Aiana
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.13 01:35:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
I give the "solution" 3 months before we're at the exact same place we are now.


Maybe they plan on updating the baseprice on a regular basis. (Hope's a *****...)

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.03.13 02:40:00 - [11]
 

so please enlighten me ... why is reducing the insurance payout bad?

finally suicide ganking will be less profitable and insurance fraud is dead. sounds good to me.

AdmiralJohn
Gallente
Origin of Sanshaa
Posted - 2010.03.13 02:57:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
so please enlighten me ... why is reducing the insurance payout bad?

finally suicide ganking will be less profitable and insurance fraud is dead. sounds good to me.
Except prices will fall to match these levels, and miners will make even less money.

People will still suicide gank.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.13 03:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: AdmiralJohn
Originally by: darius mclever
so please enlighten me ... why is reducing the insurance payout bad?

finally suicide ganking will be less profitable and insurance fraud is dead. sounds good to me.
Except prices will fall to match these levels, and miners will make even less money.

People will still suicide gank.


This. The solution to suicide ganking is to remove insurance payout on ships with concord on their killmail.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.03.13 03:09:00 - [14]
 

well that doesnt solve the insurance fraud?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 03:22:00 - [15]
 

I'm calling idiot economist shenenigans on this one.
When will CCP ever learn ?

They keep attacking symptoms, they never attack the actual problem.
And the more they try to be "hands-off" (and claim to be as such), the more invasive they end up actually being.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 03:39:00 - [16]
 

Seriously, what the bloodly hell is THIS supposed to solve anyway ?

Do you think it will solve suicide-ganking ? IT WON'T !
Do you think it will solve the highsec/lowsec/0.0 mining income issue ? IT WON'T ! In fact, it will make it even worse, MUCH worse.
Do you think it will reduce the ISK inflow from the insurance faucet ? Ok, that it would do, to some degree.

If it's a flat adjustment, all you solved is getting the price of ships even lower than before, until the previous situation gets repeated, just with lower prices. Miners end up screwed, since ALL mining income will get reduced, but the worst effects will be felt by 0.0 miners, since the highends will be the first to drop heavily, while lowends should remain about the same, and they might actually start to go UP in price !
If it's a dynamic adjustment, you're delaying the return of the suicide-gank cost issues, but you're making the mining imbalances and mining revenue drops even more pronounced earlier on, and going to a lower overall level.

THIS CHANGE IS ONE OF THE MOST HORRIBLE POSSIBLE CHANGES YOU COULD POSSIBLY MAKE.
Whoever had the idea to do this, and only this (if it's accompanied by a lot of other changes it might actually work, but I see none others) should be handled the same way the "boot.ini" guy was handled in your "funny vid".

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.03.13 04:21:00 - [17]
 

/me points out that its the test server and a long ways away from release... then he covers his eyes asto not bleed from the ranting of a certain player that thinks they are more importaint then they are...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 04:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
/me points out that its the test server and a long ways away from release

Right, because CCP ever improves something based on faulty premises, now do they ?
Quote:
... then he covers his eyes asto not bleed from the ranting of a certain player that thinks they are more importaint then they are...

Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?

Aera Aiana
Amarr
Posted - 2010.03.13 04:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?


Exactly, like the boy who cryed "Wolf!".

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.03.13 05:03:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Sciencegeek deathdealer on 13/03/2010 05:04:03
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
/me points out that its the test server and a long ways away from release

Right, because CCP ever improves something based on faulty premises, now do they ?
Quote:
... then he covers his eyes asto not bleed from the ranting of a certain player that thinks they are more importaint then they are...

Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?



lol Im not sure im even going to recognize your responces. first of, ever heard of testing???? or BUGS! who knows whats happening until we get a dev reply. secondly, im just guessing here, but i think the people who made the game, and know what they plan to do in the future, might know more then you. so dont get your panties in a bunch and show a bit of respect for the people that made the game. how would you like it if they just stopped?

edit-

Originally by: Aera Aiana
Originally by: Akita T
Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?


Exactly, like the boy who cryed "Wolf!".

couldnt have said it better. Very Happy

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2010.03.13 05:35:00 - [21]
 

Hey remember how during dominion testing they had full pay outs on t2 insurance? My astarte died and i got 175 million back for it. Then when the release date came t2 insurance was no where to be seen?

anyway point is, just cause its on the test serer now doesnt mean its going to make the cut.

so all of you quit your whining and flaming and offer good feed back, instead of saying this sucks, ccp you are stupid when are you going to learn. say something more like


Ok so insurence is going to go down, now are prices going to go up or down? The best option would be for mineral prices to go up along with ship prices.

There is a way to do this. Nerf strip miners!.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.03.13 05:36:00 - [22]
 

Insurance needs to go, end of. Tech 1 ships should NOT be free.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 06:06:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 13/03/2010 06:09:22
Originally by: Aera Aiana
Originally by: Akita T
Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?

Exactly, like the boy who cryed "Wolf!".

The key difference here being every time I "cried wolf", there actually WAS a wolf there.

Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
lol Im not sure im even going to recognize your responces. first of, ever heard of testing???? or BUGS! who knows whats happening until we get a dev reply.

I can recognize a disaster waiting to happen when I see one, especially the CCP variety of it.
You apparently are unable to.

Quote:
secondly, im just guessing here, but i think the people who made the game, and know what they plan to do in the future, might know more then you.

History has proven the exact opposite : I am usually right, they are usually wrong.

Quote:
so dont get your panties in a bunch and show a bit of respect for the people that made the game.

Respect for making the game ? Sure as hell, they're awesome.
Respect for doing something I can't or won't do ? Why not, yeah, of course.
Respect for something wrong they do every now and then in spite of repeated warnings ? Why the hell would I show respect for any of that ?


Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
anyway point is, just cause its on the test serer now doesnt mean its going to make the cut.

HOPEFULLY not. That's what all the screaming is about.

Quote:
so all of you quit your whining and flaming and offer good feed back

This is as good as the feedback could possibly get for this inanity.

Quote:
instead of saying this sucks, ccp you are stupid when are you going to learn. say something more like
Ok so insurence is going to go down, now are prices going to go up or down? The best option would be for mineral prices to go up along with ship prices.

Granted, I haven't gone into such detail in here, but there are several other threads discussing the same thing all over the subforums. And I have "standing proposals" that go back 2++ years which were directed towards this general area of the gameplay. If they were willing to listen to alternatives, they had YEARS to listen. They didn't. They'll just keep going ahead with whatever brain-dead idea most likely their economist shoved into their heads.

Originally by: Demolishar
Insurance needs to go, end of. Tech 1 ships should NOT be free.

If insurance goes, prices for T1 ships will drop so much, they will end up being almost free WITHOUT having to bother with insurance.
Not quite as cheap to lose as they are now, but pretty damn close. Closer to "free" than they used to be, like, say, 3 years ago anyway.

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2010.03.13 06:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 13/03/2010 06:09:22
Originally by: Aera Aiana
Originally by: Akita T
Right, because the guy on top of the mast screaming "iceberg" is just shouting that to feel important instead of, oh, I don't know, trying to avoid a freaking collision with an iceberg ?

Exactly, like the boy who cryed "Wolf!".

The key difference here being every time I "cried wolf", there actually WAS a wolf there.

Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer
lol Im not sure im even going to recognize your responces. first of, ever heard of testing???? or BUGS! who knows whats happening until we get a dev reply.

I can recognize a disaster waiting to happen when I see one, especially the CCP variety of it.
You apparently are unable to.

Quote:
secondly, im just guessing here, but i think the people who made the game, and know what they plan to do in the future, might know more then you.

History has proven the exact opposite : I am usually right, they are usually wrong.

Quote:
so dont get your panties in a bunch and show a bit of respect for the people that made the game.

Respect for making the game ? Sure as hell, they're awesome.
Respect for doing something I can't or won't do ? Why not, yeah, of course.
Respect for something wrong they do every now and then in spite of repeated warnings ? Why the hell would I show respect for any of that ?


Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
anyway point is, just cause its on the test serer now doesnt mean its going to make the cut.

HOPEFULLY not. That's what all the screaming is about.

Quote:
so all of you quit your whining and flaming and offer good feed back

This is as good as the feedback could possibly get for this inanity.

Quote:
instead of saying this sucks, ccp you are stupid when are you going to learn. say something more like
Ok so insurence is going to go down, now are prices going to go up or down? The best option would be for mineral prices to go up along with ship prices.

Granted, I haven't gone into such detail in here, but there are several other threads discussing the same thing all over the subforums. And I have "standing proposals" that go back 2++ years which were directed towards this general area of the gameplay. If they were willing to listen to alternatives, they had YEARS to listen. They didn't. They'll just keep going ahead with whatever brain-dead idea most likely their economist shoved into their heads.

Originally by: Demolishar
Insurance needs to go, end of. Tech 1 ships should NOT be free.

If insurance goes, prices for T1 ships will drop so much, they will end up being almost free WITHOUT having to bother with insurance.
Not quite as cheap to lose as they are now, but pretty damn close. Closer to "free" than they used to be, like, say, 3 years ago anyway.


wow not egotistical at all.... you might want to have that looked into.. anyway! this is looking great so far in overall concept (planet intraction) but yea it will be intresting to see what happens. and quite honestly i stoped listening to you a LONG time ago. but its fun to make you mad. :)

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.03.13 07:10:00 - [25]
 

What makes you think prices will fall?

Prices are set by supply and demand not by what the insurance pays out, if it was by insurance pay outs as some seem to claim then t2 ships today would be cheaper than they are.

I do agree though that it will not stop suicide gankers. They might be more selective of targets but it won't stop em.

It might slow down the insurance fraud folks.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2010.03.13 07:22:00 - [26]
 

CCP is sittin back laughin at all you monkeys right now.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 07:45:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 13/03/2010 07:50:33
Originally by: El'Niaga
What makes you think prices will fall?
Prices are set by supply and demand not by what the insurance pays out, if it was by insurance pay outs as some seem to claim then t2 ships today would be cheaper than they are.

Except that T1 manufacture and T2 manufacture doesn't work the same way supply-side.
T2 supply is heavily limited to the number of available moons, there's a "hard cap" on maximum production capabilities of required resources.
T1 supply right now is only limited by the number of people willing to mine, and that number keeps on growing.

Right now, the minerals needed for T1 ship building cost in between 65% and 68% of platinum payout for the corresponding ship - and you get 70% back after a platinum-insured death. There are areas of space where tier 3 battleships sell for 5 mil, even 10 mil below that 70% level, and that's at least how much somebody buying them could make via insurance exchange.
The only thing keeping mineral prices up right now is NOT "natural supply and demand" (if that wouldn't be there minerals would quickly drop below 60%, and keep on dropping until they reach ridiculously low prices compared to now).
What keeps mineral prices up is insurance prices and the willingness of people to keep on self-destructing ships "for profit" (it takes time//effort to do it, it's not like you can take 1000 ships, press a button and get the insurance money).

ONLY reducing the insurance payout of T1 ships (and nothing else) to roughly 70% of previous insurance value will simply lead to a(n eventual) drop in the mineral prices to roughly 65-70% of the NEW insurance payouts (or, in other words, roughly 30% below what we have now), and not much else.
If you keep adjusting insurance payouts down as "insurance exchange" becomes profitable again, all you would solve is get ever decreasing mineral prices, up to the point where mining is so ridiculously underpaid that you actually manage to get the supply side grinding down enough to achieve a new equilibrium... and my gut tells me it will be below half of what we have now, probably even just a third of what we have now, OVERALL.
But the "best" part about it is that it will hit 0.0 mining the most and highsec mining the least - you might even get to the point where mining in 0.0 is barely a bit more profitable than highsec mining then, and slightly less profitable than highsec mining is now (which is, not much).

Retail Therapy
Posted - 2010.03.13 08:00:00 - [28]
 

Politely waiting for further details, or a link to where the details will be found. If it's just buggy test, np. If it's major change to several different economies, much less playstyles, could we get details? It's not possible that this would just roll right onto live server with a footnote and "btw, we're changing how nearly everything works..."??? Rolling Eyes

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.03.13 08:28:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Retail Therapy
It's not possible that this would just roll right onto live server with a footnote and "btw, we're changing how nearly everything works..."??? Rolling Eyes

Wanna' bet the only mention about it in patchnotes will be "changed the way insurance payout is calculated to reflect actual market price" or something insipid like that ?
Maybe, just maybe, they'll link to a devblog saying exactly what they are doing in excruciating detail (which we already knew anyway, it's just a rehash for people that only read patchnotes but usually no forums/blogs and don't go on SiSi much, if at all).

This is "T2 build cost change" all over again.
How do you think that one got in ? Twisted Evil

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.03.13 08:52:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Wanna' bet the only mention about it in patchnotes will be "changed the way insurance payout is calculated to reflect actual market price" or something insipid like that ?

They wouldn't, because for that to happen they would actually have to "change the way insurance payout is calculated". This has not been done, so the likely patch note would have to be "We have decreased the API reference value of minerals by 31.7% to give the illusion of modifying insurance calculations."

So it's even worse than that. It'd be like them staining all of your windows yellow and then claiming that they made everything bluer.


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