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KWyz
Posted - 2010.03.12 13:42:00 - [1]
 

Last night at about 10 pm eve time i was going back to my base, passing through the losec shortcut I always take.

It's usually a quiet place, lots of people haul stuff through there(nothing too valuable,they're generally low sp players) and lots of people pass.

The only pvp-ers are the faction warfare guys, and those keep to themselves(I've never seen them camping a gate).

Unlike other times I jumped into lowsec from Orvolle, i noticed the gate being watched by more then the usual Velator or other newbie ship. Loading the system, I caught some guy in local saying "here comes a tengu" - my ship, covops fitted and with 4 inertia stabilisers in the low slots.

On the second jump there were between five and seven ships, cruiser and BS sized all waiting right next to the gate. I tried calming myself down while analizing the situation. The first thing that hit me was that the only celestials i could warp to were just behind my ship.

Warped to the next gate, cloaked the second i started moving and got away.

Lots of other people were not so fortunate.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Aubenall/kills

Now, none of the cruiser attempted to lock me in the couple of seconds it takes for the covops cloak to come fully in effect. However, looking at the kills in the system, I can clearly see that they managed to snag ships with smaller sig and higher agility than mine( AFs especially).

I'm going to put this succesful bypass of such a camp on luck. Maybe they just weren't paying attention.

Seeing as how they had a scripted HIC amongst them, aside from my current fit, is there anything I could to do maximize my chances of surviving such a camp? In a covops tengu. I'm asking this because all of a sudden i don't feel as safe going through low-sec anymore as I felt before.

Please bear with my noobness. One of the reasons I was going through at that hour is because...usually there are no people online at that time. Thank you in advance.

Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2010.03.12 13:59:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Eelis Kiy on 12/03/2010 14:04:50



Firstly (and you may already know this but I thought worth mentioning) it should take like a second at most to cloak not a couple seconds. Have your cloak set to your f1 hot key - click align, give it 1/4 of a second to kick in and press f1 (so pretty much simultanously) and you pretty much insta cloak as you start move.

Secondly - well theres lots could be said here. People getting caught could be new/lagging/inexperienced etc etc or just as you say, caught by a fast locker. Sh!t happens.

Thirdly. Couple things you can do if you find yourself jumping into a camp - 1. burn back to the gate, let them engage you first (before jumpingback through) if you can take it so they cannot jump after you (agression timer). 2. you can often escape not so fast lockers by looking for warpable objects that your ship is facing or roughly in the direction of (so you dont waste time aligning and warp fast, like an insta warp off a station). And 3, if you are just flying a travel fit then have some warp core stabs in the lows (though dont think that would work against scripted HIC?)

Alternatively you can have someone scout ahead or simply plan round busy systems.

Xavier Maroquin
Dvice Shipyards
Posted - 2010.03.12 14:29:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Eelis Kiy
Edited by: Eelis Kiy on 12/03/2010 14:04:50



Firstly (and you may already know this but I thought worth mentioning) it should take like a second at most to cloak not a couple seconds. Have your cloak set to your f1 hot key - click align, give it 1/4 of a second to kick in and press f1 (so pretty much simultanously) and you pretty much insta cloak as you start move.

Secondly - well theres lots could be said here. People getting caught could be new/lagging/inexperienced etc etc or just as you say, caught by a fast locker. Sh!t happens.

Thirdly. Couple things you can do if you find yourself jumping into a camp - 1. burn back to the gate, let them engage you first (before jumpingback through) if you can take it so they cannot jump after you (agression timer). 2. you can often escape not so fast lockers by looking for warpable objects that your ship is facing or roughly in the direction of (so you dont waste time aligning and warp fast, like an insta warp off a station). And 3, if you are just flying a travel fit then have some warp core stabs in the lows (though dont think that would work against scripted HIC?)

Alternatively you can have someone scout ahead or simply plan round busy systems.


The direction for aligning does not matter, it is the speed that matters. It takes the same amount of time to align to something in front of you and something behind you. Removing the inertial stabs for anything else increases your acceleration time so you will take longer to warp.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:23:00 - [4]
 

If a low-sec camp is prepared then you cannot escape it, period.
Remote sensor-boosted HIC + Webbing Loki makes for a near-foolproof tackle. It is vulnerable and requires good team work for RR so not that common ..

What you should do is get contacts in the militias operating in the area so you can notify them of pirate camps. One side or another is always happy to break them up Very Happy

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If a low-sec camp is prepared then you cannot escape it, period.
Remote sensor-boosted HIC + Webbing Loki makes for a near-foolproof tackle. It is vulnerable and requires good team work for RR so not that common ..

What you should do is get contacts in the militias operating in the area so you can notify them of pirate camps. One side or another is always happy to break them up Very Happy


Uh, what?

A properly piloted covop cloak capable ship can ALWAYS escape a lowsec gate camp.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:34:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If a low-sec camp is prepared then you cannot escape it, period.
Remote sensor-boosted HIC + Webbing Loki makes for a near-foolproof tackle. It is vulnerable and requires good team work for RR so not that common ..

What you should do is get contacts in the militias operating in the area so you can notify them of pirate camps. One side or another is always happy to break them up Very Happy
Or contact both of them, three ways always rock (for someone :D ).

Greg6
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:55:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: chatgris
.....

Uh, what?

A properly piloted covop cloak capable ship can ALWAYS escape a lowsec gate camp.


"ALWAYS," is a bit word. In fact, lag and software issues can get a properly piloted covop cloak caught by a low sec gate camp.

There is a delay between the time you hit "warp to," and the software registers what's going on, at both client and server end. As Eelis says, about a quarter of a second or so. If you hit your cloak too quickly after hitting aline to, your client or server will still think you are under gate cloak and not let your ship's cloak activate. While you're realizing what happened, you get locked and caught.

Then there's issues of lag, getting your jump cloak broken by either orbiting ships or cans placed there for that end, and so on. You can be doing everything, "properly," and still get caught with a covert ops cloak at a gate camp. I've both done the catching and been so caught. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:07:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Greg6
Originally by: chatgris
.....
"ALWAYS," is a bit word. In fact, lag and software issues can get a properly piloted covop cloak caught by a low sec gate camp.



Not sure what you mean by software issues, but if you disconnect you'll probably just disappear in a minute anyways. But yes, if your computer crashes at the wrong time, fair enough. Assuming a working game.

Originally by: Greg6

There is a delay between the time you hit "warp to," and the software registers what's going on, at both client and server end. As Eelis says, about a quarter of a second or so. If you hit your cloak too quickly after hitting aline to, your client or server will still think you are under gate cloak and not let your ship's cloak activate. While you're realizing what happened, you get locked and caught.



That's why you leave your combat log open! Warp -> cloak [If you see a message pop up in the log, hit cloak again really fast!]

That by far beats waiting "long enough" giving yourself time to be tackled. You shouldn't ever be lockable watching your combat log.

Originally by: Greg6

Then there's issues of lag, getting your jump cloak broken by either orbiting ships or cans placed there for that end, and so on. You can be doing everything, "properly," and still get caught with a covert ops cloak at a gate camp. I've both done the catching and been so caught. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen.


Alright, on this point I will admit that "ALWAYS" is not technically: There is the slight chance you will spawn 2.5km from a can or player and be decloaked.

But avoiding your client crashing in that split second or someone coming with 2.5km of you before you decloak, you *should* always make it through with a covops cloak.

KWyz
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:00:00 - [9]
 

I think i'll take your advice about contacting the militias. Somehow i think breaking gatecamps is the ONE thing they'd actually get along about.

Heh.

That being said, I realised that having a covops cloak fit ship riddled with inertia stabilisers is the most i can do to try and go through a GC. That and fitting a wcs...but i don't know if it's worth losing that slot...damn, the choices are so hard.

Eventually,everyone gets to that gatecamp that blows them up. I just hope i won't be kicking myself for not doing something when that happens.

Amanda Mor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: KWyz
Last night at about 10 pm eve time i was going back to my base, passing through the losec shortcut I always take.

It's usually a quiet place, lots of people haul stuff through there(nothing too valuable,they're generally low sp players) and lots of people pass.

The only pvp-ers are the faction warfare guys, and those keep to themselves(I've never seen them camping a gate).

Unlike other times I jumped into lowsec from Orvolle, i noticed the gate being watched by more then the usual Velator or other newbie ship. Loading the system, I caught some guy in local saying "here comes a tengu" - my ship, covops fitted and with 4 inertia stabilisers in the low slots.

On the second jump there were between five and seven ships, cruiser and BS sized all waiting right next to the gate. I tried calming myself down while analizing the situation. The first thing that hit me was that the only celestials i could warp to were just behind my ship.

Warped to the next gate, cloaked the second i started moving and got away.

Lots of other people were not so fortunate.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Aubenall/kills

Now, none of the cruiser attempted to lock me in the couple of seconds it takes for the covops cloak to come fully in effect. However, looking at the kills in the system, I can clearly see that they managed to snag ships with smaller sig and higher agility than mine( AFs especially).

I'm going to put this succesful bypass of such a camp on luck. Maybe they just weren't paying attention.

Seeing as how they had a scripted HIC amongst them, aside from my current fit, is there anything I could to do maximize my chances of surviving such a camp? In a covops tengu. I'm asking this because all of a sudden i don't feel as safe going through low-sec anymore as I felt before.

Please bear with my noobness. One of the reasons I was going through at that hour is because...usually there are no people online at that time. Thank you in advance.


I was thinking the exact opposite in fact - the AF's were either incredibly unlucky, or stupid to have got caught, and you had at least two almost failsafe methods to escape the camp (one of which you used successfully, congrats).

Your other option, as mentioned, is to simply burn back to the gate - you'll gate a full cycle on your MWD, and will be back in jumping range before the cruisers do much damage to you, and likely before the BS's can even lock you (or shortly thereafter, again, not much damage). A strat. cruiser should have plenty of time to get back to the gate before 7 BS/cruisers can do significant damage to it's EHP buffer.

The few times I camp a gate, we generally ignore the frigates and speedier cruisers b/c they're going to get away anyway, especially if we're in Cruisers and BS's. It may be a different story if you have Inty's with you, but the camp you were in didn't. This didn't seem like a particularly "well-prepared" gate camp - it was searching for battleships and battlecruisers, not frigates and T3's.

Missm Uppet
Caldari
Posted - 2010.03.12 18:47:00 - [11]
 

Just to add a comment to one of the pieces of advice above. If you do find yourself having recently jumped through and needing to burn back to the gate (usually this is for situations where you're uncloaked), be sure that you hold your initial cloak from jumping as long as possible. Otherwise you will likely get back to the gate too fast before the session timer will allow you to jump back. I've seen plenty of ships die to this.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2010.03.12 19:12:00 - [12]
 

With the advent of cheaper rigs, it can be next to impossible to get 99.99% of all ships past a well organized gate camp. Ships now have the possibility to insta lock even interceptors with the right rigs.

Meaning if you run into a well set up camp there is little if no chance that you will escape, unless you have the HP to get back to the gate.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.03.12 19:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: chatgris
A properly piloted covop cloak capable ship can ALWAYS escape a lowsec gate camp.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.12 19:54:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
With the advent of cheaper rigs, it can be next to impossible to get 99.99% of all ships past a well organized gate camp. Ships now have the possibility to insta lock even interceptors with the right rigs.

Meaning if you run into a well set up camp there is little if no chance that you will escape, unless you have the HP to get back to the gate.

Aye. Once you get ~3k scan resolution you can lock pods before they are able to warp from station undocks.
If the server gods favour you then the point activation is even registered in time Twisted Evil

How much EHP is required to survive under sentries provided one has RR available? 7-8k?

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.03.12 20:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Once you get ~3k scan resolution you can lock pods before they are able to warp from station undocks.

Ctrl + space, stop, then warp.

KWyz
Posted - 2010.03.12 20:19:00 - [16]
 

This is another interesting point to take on. Given how both shield rigs and shield extenders increase the ships sig radius, is it wise to fit those for extra EHP? Or instead put up active resist modules?

On the other hand,to answer my own question, with properly fitted ships, the sig radius is irrelevant, they'll still lock you no matter what. And the active resists have the disadvantage that they need to be manually activated, something wich, with lag and grid loading involved while being decloaked on jumping can lead to quicker deaths.

So...shield mass and burning through it is...because again, if you pulse the mwd you will still have a big sig radius. Amirite? :) But what if they use warp scramblers?

Like I said, the questions are numerous, the pod is just one. Thank you for your advices.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.12 20:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: KWyz
This is another interesting point to take on.

Rigs are trade-offs. Like plates make you slower and easier to catch but increase survivability when the shooting starts.
Gate cloaks last 30s unless you manually move the ship. You cannot be decloaked while under the gate cloak, very important distinction.
The point of using the MWD burst to reach gate is that by the time a scrambler hits and kills the drive you will already be at speed .. hopefully the momentum is enough to reach safe harbour.

Learn what the various graphical effects represent and spend the time under gate-cloak to look around (just don't move!). If you see a remote sensor effect, kiss your ass goodbye and try for a gate burn .. if no remotes are active chances are they are after heavier prey,

KWyz
Posted - 2010.03.12 20:43:00 - [18]
 

New guy question incoming: can't enemies decloak you right after jumping through? i thought that's what gatecamps with drones buzzing all around are for.

Also, i think i get it now. Even if you DO get scrambled, the mwd still pulses to the end,right? So many things to learn.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.03.12 23:24:00 - [19]
 

Quote:

Seeing as how they had a scripted HIC amongst them, aside from my current fit, is there anything I could to do maximize my chances of surviving such a camp? In a covops tengu. I'm asking this because all of a sudden i don't feel as safe going through low-sec anymore as I felt before.

Please bear with my noobness. One of the reasons I was going through at that hour is because...usually there are no people online at that time. Thank you in advance.



You have been lucky. Some 4 months ago you could have found my corp mate Foxxy and then you'd be one of the deaders, you are correct at not feeling that immortal any more. He takes less than 0.25 secs to point you, some people are seemingly inhuman.


Quote:

I think i'll take your advice about contacting the militias. Somehow i think breaking gatecamps is the ONE thing they'd actually get along about



If militias are still like when I was in Gallente FW, they don't like gates warfare with neutrals.
They are there for the FW not to get blinky fast and unable to do their stuff in high sec.

Plus, it's not rare that they roam with smaller ships that would have issues with gate sentries.


Quote:

The point of using the MWD burst to reach gate is that by the time a scrambler hits and kills the drive you will already be at speed .. hopefully the momentum is enough to reach safe harbour.



MWD is a double edged sword, as you become larger than a soccer ground.
In 0.0 a SB will just 1 shot you due to that.

Furthermore, you can be bumped, I have been bumped in 0.0 in the most absurdly small time frames.


Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
With the advent of cheaper rigs, it can be next to impossible to get 99.99% of all ships past a well organized gate camp. Ships now have the possibility to insta lock even interceptors with the right rigs.

Meaning if you run into a well set up camp there is little if no chance that you will escape, unless you have the HP to get back to the gate.


Hahaha oh wow. You are so wrong on this point.

Liquidium
Divine Retribution
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.13 00:37:00 - [21]
 

Its 20 seconds of session timer IIRC.

Thats 20 seconds of you ending up being dead.

You can burn to the gate as fast as you want, but if you still sessioned... god help you.

ShoreTay
Posted - 2010.03.13 03:25:00 - [22]
 

As long as you hit Warp and then immediately cloak you will never get caught. It doesn't matter how high a ship's Scan Res is, as long as you cloak immediately you won't get caught.

Darthewok
Perkone
Posted - 2010.03.13 05:09:00 - [23]
 

do check out ship losses the last hour in the in-game map.
anything above 3 or 4 ships killed and especially high number of pods lost means you'd best go another route or wait till another time.
1 or 2 you may chance it though it is still risky of course.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2010.03.13 05:38:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Originally by: Mutnin
With the advent of cheaper rigs, it can be next to impossible to get 99.99% of all ships past a well organized gate camp. Ships now have the possibility to insta lock even interceptors with the right rigs.

Meaning if you run into a well set up camp there is little if no chance that you will escape, unless you have the HP to get back to the gate.


Hahaha oh wow. You are so wrong on this point.


You have either mis-read my post, or you have never ran into some of the lovely insta locking T3's. Hell it doesn't even have to be a T3..

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2010.03.13 06:26:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
How much EHP is required to survive under sentries provided one has RR available? 7-8k?


Not even that, just enough armor to eat a sentry volley without going into hull. I know this because I was in a camp where a Keres was pointing stuff, it had logis repping it constantly whether it was taking damage or not, it did just fine.

Altered Ego
Meatshield Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:16:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Altered Ego on 13/03/2010 11:33:49
Originally by: KWyz


...I caught some guy in local saying "here comes a tengu"




Unless you are fabulously rich, you should protect a T3 like it's your left nut ... if someone calls you out in local (sloppy, yes, but still proof you've been made) I'd dock up or cloak up at a safe for an hour. Use the time to snoop out the killboards to see what kind of gate camp they are running or maybe run an alt over in a Veltator or a cov-ops to get eyes on them.

Having said that, if you do want to chance it, you should be in one of the best set up ships for running a gate camp - a covops.

But that's where checking the KB's come in yet again, because a good 'ceptor pilot can decloak and lock you if you are sloppy on your warp away or lag/bad luck conspires to expose you.

So it all comes down to risk management.

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.03.13 11:57:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: TraininVain on 13/03/2010 12:01:13
Just to reiterate the point, when you're at zero velocity after jumping in your ship is not "facing" anything.

Ships in EVE only have directional velocity, no facing.

The model facing is entirely cosmetic (observe the skidding effect when you align after undocking).

So cloaked after jumping a gate your align time to everything is the same.

Cloaks work (actually, it could depend a lot on how fast your connection is I think... not entirely sure if pointing uses client-side timestamping or server side), small fast ships work, using a scout if you're jumping something expensive works.

Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.03.13 12:00:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: TraininVain
So cloaked after jumping a gate your align time to everything is the same.


This is entirely untrue.

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.03.13 12:06:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: TraininVain on 13/03/2010 12:08:19
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Aligning

Quote:
There is no benefit to the ship and how long it takes to get into warp; in EVE, ships are modelled as vectors, and the actual orientation of the engines has no relevance to the direction in which thrust is applied. Therefore the time to warp when passive aligned is the same as if the ship were pointing in the opposite direction but stationary.


I'm quite happy to be proved wrong on this (really, if it works the other way it'd be handy to know) but this is what I've read, been told and observed while playing. The ship changes direction and the model then appears to catch up.

Ships used to warp sideways Shocked Now they changed it so your ship faces your aligned object but it still moves separately which looks bad-ass (does anyone else make a tires screeching sound effect when they undock and align?).

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.13 14:52:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: TraininVain
does anyone else make a tires screeching sound effect when they undock and align?.

Nope, just you. Really should get help for that, not natural Laughing

Align time is based on agility, which is based on a function of mass and inertia modifier.

Time-to-warp however is limited by acceleration and has nothing to do with align time (which is what gives TraininVain reason to make funny noises). This is what comes into play when using the MWD burst to get to warp faster in heavy ships.


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