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blankseplocked Office Fees - The Final Word
 
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Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.07 14:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 19/04/2010 14:32:41
Four months ago there was some discussion on this forum on the exact mechanics for office fee calculations. Tranka Verrane proposed that it had something to do with how busy a station is, whereas I thought it had to do with how many offices were available for rent. I searched for other posts on this subject, which all confirmed that I was right. However there was no agreement in those posts on the exact rate of change (up or down) and when rents would rise or drop (at 0, 1, or 2 free offices). That's when I decided to settle things once and for all.

For 116 days I have kept track of office fees in a station suggested by Tranka Verrane. Every day after downtime (as soon as I was able) I noted the number of free offices and the fee which I was charged when renting an office. Now, after four months, I am confident that I have the exact mechanics.

When I started the office fee was 477,830 isk. The maximum fee was 3,203,688 isk. The current fee is 2,449,763 isk. The number of free offices varied between 0 and 6. The total number of rentable offices in station is 24.
Office fees are calculated daily at downtime; the daily change is based on the number of free offices at downtime. Prices rise when there are no available offices; prices stay the same when there is 1 available office. When there are 2 or more available offices, prices drop - the size of the drop is based on the number of available offices. Office fees are always truncated to 0 decimals. The absolute minimum office fee is 10,000 isk.

I have observed the following (FO = Free Offices):
FO - Change %
0 - 5,000
1 - 0,000
2 - -0,217
3 - -0,435
4 - -0,652
5 - -0,870
6 - -1,087


The changes from 1 to 6 appear to be linear. I am no math genius, but this formula would fit the above data for 1 to 6 free offices:
(Free_Offices - 1) / 23 * -5
(results in % change)


Therefore I'm confident to extend the list like this:
(* = confirmed by observation)
FO - Change %
0 - 5,000*
1 - 0,000*
2 - -0,217*
3 - -0,435*
4 - -0,652*
5 - -0,870*
6 - -1,087*
7 - -1,304*
8 - -1,522*
9 - -1,739*
10 - -1,957*
11 - -2,174*
12 - -2,391
13 - -2,609
14 - -2,826
15 - -3,043
16 - -3,261
17 - -3,478
18 - -3,696
19 - -3,913
20 - -4,130
21 - -4,348
22 - -4,565
23 - -4,783
24 - -5,000

I actually had the formula before I realised that the number of rentable offices is 24 (I had assumed it to be 20). As you can see extending the pattern from 1-6 to 24 (the maximum) has the result that the maximum change is -5.000%, exactly mirroring the 5.000% change when no offices are free.

To calculate what the office fee will be tomorrow based on todays rent, you can use these formulas:
0 offices free: =TRUNC(Old_Office_Fee*1,05;0)
>0 offices free: =TRUNC(Old_Office_Fee*(1-(Free_Offices-1)/23*0,05);0)

Though I'm pretty confident about these results (perhaps a bit exaggerated in the thread title Razz) I'm open to comments, criticism and disagreement (as always - that's how this whole ordeal got started remember Wink).
Data is available on request.


Addendum
2010.03.12: The change for 7 free offices is -1,304% as predicted above.
2010.03.21: The change for 9 free offices is -1,739% as predicted above.
2010.03.29: 10 free offices now confirmed.
2010.04.19: Confirmed 8 and 11 free offices.


Horchan
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.07 15:15:00 - [2]
 

The only part that I'm surprised about is that nobody has done this up until now. Excellent work.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2010.03.07 16:50:00 - [3]
 

Massive kudos for taking the time to do this and confirm the pattern, Estel.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.03.07 18:56:00 - [4]
 

Hey man. Thank you for doing this.

I'm not the least bit surprised that no one has done this before as that is one hell of a lot of work.

I've bookmarked this thread and ... hopefully will be able to find the book mark the next time I see this question asked as it comes up repeatedly from people trying to figure out how this works.



Also, this looks like a candidate for something included in the Player Guide or at least given a sticky somewhere so people are not dependent on those of us who've bookmarked it being able to find the book mark the next time we want to refer someone to this information.


Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.07 20:50:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/03/2010 21:00:29
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/03/2010 20:50:50
That is very nice work and considering the number of offices you run I would consider this hard to refute without seeing the data and the data of any other challenger Very Happy

So again, a big kudos for the number crunching and the new information. I remember the old thread just need to look it up and refresh my memory of the debate.\

EDIT: After an extended time on the compose page I forgot that you provided the link to the old thread Embarassed

EDIT2: Even though the original thread started in New Players I would say you should ask for this to be moved to GD. But that is just so it gets more eyes from vets that do not frequent New Players.


Slade

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2010.03.08 08:29:00 - [6]
 

As always, bravo Estel. Excellent work.

Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
Posted - 2010.03.08 10:53:00 - [7]
 

I join in congratulations.

But I'm still stuck on another question about office fees: Does it matter if it's your HQ or how many offices you have?

I ask because every station I get a quote at for offices is giving me quotes in the vicinity of about 15 million isk, even if they're only a jump or so away from my much, much cheaper existing offices - which are at my HQ.

So is it just that my HQ is in a really undesirable station, or is there a premium on non-primary offices?

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.03.08 11:17:00 - [8]
 

Minimum office rent is 10,000 ISK. Assuming there is no real maximum cap, let's see how a new station develops when all of its slots are filled according to the data presented by the OP:
Day - Rent
0 - 10k
1 - 10.5k
2 - 11k
etc.
30 - 43k
180 - 65M
360 - 425B
The formula is (rent on day 1)*1.05^(current day - 1).

Assuming start from 10k, an office will pass 1M in 95 days if it is continuously booked full. To start dropping quickly, several offices need to be vacated.

So, in a station with all slots filled or at most a few slots free and quickly re-filled, the price of the office will gather interest-on-interest. Think about research facilities, mission and market hubs. In some regions, perhaps even cloning services. A station with only refining or repair in the middle of nowhere isn't going to be interesting. (Unless there's something else of interest there and no other station near by.)

Jig ofSaw
Posted - 2010.03.08 15:17:00 - [9]
 

ironically none of this applies to me as my corp has several pos for free researching set up

Horchan
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.08 15:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jig ofSaw
ironically none of this applies to me as my corp has several pos for free researching set up

So you mean to say that you don't rent corp offices in stations in the same system as your POS? And that you physically put the BPO's into the POS to do research on them? Excellent idea. Hopefully someone figures out who your main is and liberates some of your mishandled BPO's.

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2010.03.08 19:24:00 - [11]
 

Massive floating constructs the size cities and only 24 office spaces total per station??!!??

Tell me if this makes any sense at all given the gigantic scale of Eve. Where the **** is Donald Trump when you need him?


Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.08 19:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kharylien
I join in congratulations.

But I'm still stuck on another question about office fees: Does it matter if it's your HQ or how many offices you have?

I ask because every station I get a quote at for offices is giving me quotes in the vicinity of about 15 million isk, even if they're only a jump or so away from my much, much cheaper existing offices - which are at my HQ.

So is it just that my HQ is in a really undesirable station, or is there a premium on non-primary offices?


The HQ has no effect on rent afaik. Your station might just be undesirable.

I used to rent hundreds of offices across the universe, and I know from that experience that the rents can vary a lot between close stations, even in the same system. The inability to view office rents from a distance might be the cause of that. If you could see that a close by station is a lot cheaper, you might move your offices; that would lead to a more even distribution of rents.


Jig ofSaw
Posted - 2010.03.08 19:35:00 - [13]
 

i dont understand how would having my bpo's in my adv labs in a divisions that only 3 people can access is dangerous and since the pos is corp only

were not like doom leaving everything open for people to walk in and take

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.08 19:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jig ofSaw
i dont understand how would having my bpo's in my adv labs in a divisions that only 3 people can access is dangerous and since the pos is corp only

were not like doom leaving everything open for people to walk in and take

It's dangerous compared to having them in the same division in a corp hangar at an office in system. Your POS can be bashed (and your BPOs taken), your office can't.

Jig ofSaw
Posted - 2010.03.08 19:52:00 - [15]
 

i guess that would be true of all our POS werent in high sec


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.03.08 21:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Jig ofSaw
i guess that would be true of all our POS werent in high sec





Umm ... you are in a corporation ... right? You do understand that it can be war dec'd and that after that High Sec doesn't matter ... right?



Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.08 22:24:00 - [17]
 

Time to show my noobishness.

I thought the purpose of a research POS was to research BPO's.

For the defense of all my past industrial/producer corpmates, which are many, I never asked anyone about how researching is done. So I am pleading ignorance on this one Embarassed

Fake EDIT: I apologize for the continuance of the derail ugh


Slade

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.03.08 22:30:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 08/03/2010 22:39:55
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Time to show my noobishness.

I thought the purpose of a research POS was to research BPO's.

For the defense of all my past industrial/producer corpmates, which are many, I never asked anyone about how researching is done. So I am pleading ignorance on this one Embarassed

Fake EDIT: I apologize for the continuance of the derail ugh


Slade



Yeah. That is a reason. It's just that you don't have ALL your BPO's there, just the ones you are researching/copying etc.

You keep the BPO's you've done with back in base when you don't need them to make copies, then use the copies in producing T2 BPC's.

All of this depends on what you've got in the way of BPO's but if you're wealthy enough to have a POS ... then you may just have quiet a few - and - researched at that. Here, the loss of so many researched BPO's would be the killer as you've lost all the time it took to get that done, which could be a much bigger loss than the ISK you paid for them before you researched them.



So, what you'd do is have all your researched BPO's in a base where you could manufacture from. The reason for POS's is that the research and copying queue's in bases are always full. The manufacturing queue's are very seldom full unless you're in a very popular base.

There can be any number of other variables to this, such as the size of your corporation, whether or not you like being war dec'd and the defenses you've constructed around your POS.



Mal Lokrano
Gallente
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.03.08 22:49:00 - [19]
 

Great post, finally some information on how corp office prices work. Very Happy

Horchan
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.09 01:18:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Horchan on 09/03/2010 01:17:55
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Time to show my noobishness.

I thought the purpose of a research POS was to research BPO's.

They are. =)

But the catch is the BPO never has to physically be at the POS. If you have an office in a station in the same system, then you can install manufacturing, ME, PE, invention, and copying jobs to your POS from the station. The only things that ever need to physically be in the POS are any other materials needed to install the jobs (minerals, datacores, decryptors, interfaces, etc).

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2010.03.09 12:37:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Time to show my noobishness.

I thought the purpose of a research POS was to research BPO's.

For the defense of all my past industrial/producer corpmates, which are many, I never asked anyone about how researching is done. So I am pleading ignorance on this one Embarassed

Fake EDIT: I apologize for the continuance of the derail ugh


Slade



Yeah. That is a reason. It's just that you don't have ALL your BPO's there, just the ones you are researching/copying etc.

Not even those ones. If you have Scientific Networking trained (even to level 1), you can start a research job on a BPO that is in a corp office in the same system.

There is never any reason to actually put BPOs in POS labs (unless for some reason you want to set up your POS in a system without stations, and feel like the risk is worth whatever benefit you're getting from doing so. I suppose if the rent in all the stations rose to the 300-odd billion figure above you might think twice about paying it, though really you should just move your POS somewhere else.)

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.03.09 12:52:00 - [22]
 

That is really good to know. Even though whenever I get back into the game it will be a long while before I can use it Laughing


Slade

ISellThingz
Posted - 2010.03.09 13:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Jig ofSaw
i guess that would be true of all our POS werent in high sec





Umm ... you are in a corporation ... right? You do understand that it can be war dec'd and that after that High Sec doesn't matter ... right?





You do understand that they have 24 hours to take down the pos when war dec'd ?

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:26:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: ISellThingz
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Jig ofSaw
i guess that would be true of all our POS werent in high sec





Umm ... you are in a corporation ... right? You do understand that it can be war dec'd and that after that High Sec doesn't matter ... right?





You do understand that they have 24 hours to take down the pos when war dec'd ?



Very Happy


Yeah I knew that - I just didn't know it was that easy to take down a POS. I had some other comments to make about that but we've derailed this thread enough.


I know! Instead of admiting what derailers we are - we'll just claim we were bumping it to keep it on the front page so Estel got all the credit he so richly deserves for figuring all those rents out.

Very Happy


Estel Rules!

Very Happy

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.03.09 22:35:00 - [25]
 

Nice work Estel!
Odd placing for the thread though, instead of S & I, imo.

CCP Applebabe

Posted - 2010.03.10 08:02:00 - [26]
 

Moved from EVE New Citizens Q&A.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.10 12:50:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Applebabe
Moved from EVE New Citizens Q&A.


Thank you Applebabe Smile

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.12 15:45:00 - [28]
 

Anal as I am, I'm continuing to keep track of office prices (it's a daily habit by now anyway).
I can now confirm the change for 7 free offices is -1,304% as predicted above.

Emporer Norton
Posted - 2010.03.12 16:21:00 - [29]
 

If you are wardeced and they immediatly cancel the dec have 24 hours to attack

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Jig ofSaw
i guess that would be true of all our POS werent in high sec





Umm ... you are in a corporation ... right? You do understand that it can be war dec'd and that after that High Sec doesn't matter ... right?




Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.03.21 14:34:00 - [30]
 

9 free offices now confirmed.


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