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Renix Xerar
Posted - 2010.02.28 01:48:00 - [1]
 

I'm sick of watching everybody call the Ret a failboat and having to fit rockets on a vengeance... the only difference is the bonus and the mid slot on the Ret... I'd rather lose the high slot and low slot for 2 more mids like the vengeance, I need a use for my T2 small laser training!!

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.02.28 01:55:00 - [2]
 

Use slicer till they fix retri.Laughing

Brew ha
Posted - 2010.02.28 01:57:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Renix Xerar
I need a use for my T2 small laser training!!


DLP Crusader

But yeah, even if only the extra high slot was swapped for a mid-slot, the Retribution would be a great little boat for PvP, as it stands, it's either relegated to minor ratting, or limited gang work - the ability to fit a point would be a very welcome addition

Renix Xerar
Posted - 2010.02.28 02:01:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Use slicer till they fix retri.Laughing
Well there's a thought... didn't even think of that lol... and as for the crusader - im thinking of getting crusader but thats 10d of extra training, i've got a lot of skills set up to go atm =( wish i could make room for it sooner rather than later... and as for ACs vs. Pulse lasers... everybody seems to lean towards "why bother fitting lasers, train autocannons..." Retri gives an excuse for lasers =) i'd love to not have to train 5 levels of projectile turrets just for frigs.. slicer might be my current solution though Shocked

Dutch Schaeffer
Amarr
Eye of God
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.02.28 09:12:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Dutch Schaeffer on 28/02/2010 09:15:09
I hadn't flown an Amarr AF in PVP in several years until today and now I remember why. Was completely shredded by an ishkur (I had an ares with me so thought this fight might go ok). The way I see it you have 2 choices with amarr AF, you get DPS and one mid slot with the retribution, or tackle and not enough DPS to shoot your way out of a paper bag with the vengeance (lol rockets).

Comparing the ishkur to the vengeance and the vengeance might as well be T1:
Vengeance: 4 5% bonus rocket hardpoints no drones
Ishkur: 3 5% bonus blaster hardpoints 5 T2 lights

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.28 10:51:00 - [6]
 

The Crusader has the same damage output as the Retribution, more speed, agility, smaller sig radius and two mids. Only its raw armor tank is a bit worse if fitted like a Retri.

The main Retri advantage is range, and if you need range nowadays, you are better off with a Slicer.

Ablivian
Posted - 2010.03.14 08:08:00 - [7]
 

I still don't know what the f the devs were thinking when they made the retri, must have been drunk or something but really? a 5th high slot that has no purpose what so ever.. and only one mid slot on a assault frig? for the love of god please just switch the last high slot for a mid, really at least it will give the ship some purpose as a fast tackel, compared to the wolf and all other assault frigs it's just well, useless...

Thirzarr
Posted - 2010.03.14 08:11:00 - [8]
 

They were probably thinking:

"One of the highest DPS frigate hulls ingame with the weakness: needs mate to tackle."

Honestly. The ret is a fine ship with a mean punch to it.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.03.14 08:12:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Renix Xerar
AMARR IS NOT THE BEST RACE IN EVERY SHIP CLASS AND NOW I AM MAD!!! Embarassed


Izzybella
Posted - 2010.03.14 10:49:00 - [10]
 

I have a simple if somewhat radical solution to the whole "one midslot" problem: don't fly it solo! Or are you people unfamiliar with the concept of a gang orientated ship?
It's fine as it is, big DPS, big tank.

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.03.14 10:54:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Izzybella
I have a simple if somewhat radical solution to the whole "one midslot" problem: don't fly it solo! Or are you people unfamiliar with the concept of a gang orientated ship?
It's fine as it is, big DPS, big tank.


It's a frig though Confused

Izzybella
Posted - 2010.03.14 11:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: TraininVain
Originally by: Izzybella
I have a simple if somewhat radical solution to the whole "one midslot" problem: don't fly it solo! Or are you people unfamiliar with the concept of a gang orientated ship?
It's fine as it is, big DPS, big tank.


It's a frig though Confused


That stops you flying with a mate how? Also there are plenty of other frigs that need assistance, EAFs for one with the possible exception of the sentinel. Also the tackle inties are not suited to solo work.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.03.14 11:35:00 - [13]
 

The solution to Amarr's frigate/AF issues is the Sentinel, there's a REASON why it's the best of all the EAS when in a combat role.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2010.03.14 11:59:00 - [14]
 

Gang argument for Retribution is weak. Regardless of the nature of gang, ANY gang commander will expect his fast light ships to have points. Situations that need it are too common. And DPS from Retribution is not that dramatic to compensate for it. At the same time, AFs as anti-frigate platforms have hard time competing with destroyers and sniper-HACs.

I used to fly a Wolf that would have MWD and MSE in midslots, and all-out damage/speed fit in lows. It was very survivable cluster of high-precision DPS. It was fun, but my benefit to gang was low compared to virtually anything similar I could fly at the time.

It was a good choice for "Mosquito Fleet" we used couple of times - several dozens of AFs and Intys - there was so many fast points in the fleet that all-damage/tank AFs were really beneficial. But this is very artificial situation.


A frigate needs a point. Thats the reality of PvP, with virtually no exceptions.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.03.14 12:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Izzybella
Originally by: TraininVain
Originally by: Izzybella
I have a simple if somewhat radical solution to the whole "one midslot" problem: don't fly it solo! Or are you people unfamiliar with the concept of a gang orientated ship?
It's fine as it is, big DPS, big tank.


It's a frig though Confused


That stops you flying with a mate how? Also there are plenty of other frigs that need assistance, EAFs for one with the possible exception of the sentinel. Also the tackle inties are not suited to solo work.


The difference is that EAFs bring something valuable to a gang that you can't get with just another (assault) frig or inty. The only thing a retri is good for is whoring on mails from outside scram range. Great for your survivability, **** for your gang.

TraininVain
Posted - 2010.03.14 13:08:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: TraininVain on 14/03/2010 13:11:33
Originally by: Izzybella
Originally by: TraininVain
Originally by: Izzybella
I have a simple if somewhat radical solution to the whole "one midslot" problem: don't fly it solo! Or are you people unfamiliar with the concept of a gang orientated ship?
It's fine as it is, big DPS, big tank.


It's a frig though Confused


That stops you flying with a mate how? Also there are plenty of other frigs that need assistance, EAFs for one with the possible exception of the sentinel. Also the tackle inties are not suited to solo work.


Unless you really need/want to be in a frig hull I don't see the point of bringing a non-tackling frig along. There's a bunch of better ships I can bring along for the same ISK to perform the DPS role even just counting Amarr ships.

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2010.03.14 14:51:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 14/03/2010 15:10:29
Contrary to popular belief, it's perfectly fine to fly a no-tackle frigate in a gang as long as your FC knows about it and you bring some capability to the table to offset the lack of tackle.

One of my favorite ships to fly on a Frigate roam is a Harpy. With a pure sniping setup (TC, SeBos, 2x MFS) you have a relatively mobile (albeit paper-thin) platform that can apply decent frigate-class DPS at 20km with very fast lock times or mediocre turret DPS at 80km, which no other frigate can really do. And I do it all without tackle. Yes, if something small and fast gets in under 20km I can't hit it, but that's why I have gangmates so I just switch to another target that I can hit.

In theory, the Retribution could function the same manner as a Snarpy except that it's gimped. Not by its slot layout, but by its anemic CPU output. I've tried fitting a sniper Retri and it just does not work. The closest I've come to a sniping setup on a Retri is this:

[Retribution, Sniper Retri?]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters

Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
[empty high slot]

Small Algid Energy Administrations Unit I
Small Ancillary Current Router I

It does good damage, has good tracking, and is cap stable, but it's only got about half the range of a Snarpy and it lacks my Snarpy's lock range (which doesn't much matter because I don't need it) and lock time (which does). Even using Faction Standard, I'm only getting about 24km range, which is still far to short range to consider flying without some form of tackle. My Snarpy firing Faction Lead hits at over 40km and over 80km with Spike, which is outside of tackle range anyways; in my experience it's okay to let someone else tackle when you can hit from that range. CLARITY EDIT: The Retri can't, so flying it without tackle is an issue.

How does this get fixed? If it had more of a range bonus or enough CPU to fit additional damage/range mods it could fill a similar role as the Snarpy does and that would be somewhat useful. But until it can actually snipe, it's useless.

Now, moving one low slot up to a mid could make it function as a close-range brawler even without a CPU/range bonus buff; pulses require less CPU and you are less reliant on CPU-hungry tracking mods. I'm not arguing against that at all by the way; if anything, it would make the ship far more versatile. I'm just saying that it's not the only way to fix the Retri and that the Retri could function perfectly well, albeit in a very niche roll, with only one mid slot.

Blind Jhon
Posted - 2010.03.14 14:56:00 - [18]
 

because retri compared to an enyo, harpy, wolf, has

excellent tank
excellent damage (plus + range)
nearly perma cap

now

if you want to pvp in it you can choose
1 speed
2 takle

anyway you are a fail pilot. what you look in a ship is the "wave of mutilation i'ma cool" effect, look i've got killmail ! retri is a excellent ship

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.03.14 15:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Contrary to popular belief, it's perfectly fine to fly a no-tackle frigate in a gang as long as your FC knows about it and you bring some capability to the table to offset the lack of tackle.

Only retri brings nothing.

If you want to bring dps to the frig gang, use stealth bomber.
If you want to survive /and you dont care if your buddies die/ and ***** on killmails, then retri is ofc good choice.

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2010.03.14 15:07:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Contrary to popular belief, it's perfectly fine to fly a no-tackle frigate in a gang as long as your FC knows about it and you bring some capability to the table to offset the lack of tackle.

Only retri brings nothing.

If you want to bring dps to the frig gang, use stealth bomber.
If you want to survive /and you dont care if your buddies die/ and ***** on killmails, then retri is ofc good choice.


My point exactly. The only thing it can bring to the table right now is DPS which, while useful, isn't enough in my mind to offset the lack of tackle.

Irida Mershkov
Gallente
The Reformed
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2010.03.14 15:41:00 - [21]
 

Lose a low, gain a mid IMO.

Radcjk
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2010.03.14 17:16:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Lose a low, gain a mid IMO.


Now its Amarr Wolf.
Drop High utility slot, keep 5 lows, +1 Mid.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.03.14 18:54:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 14/03/2010 18:54:14
Originally by: Radcjk
Drop High utility slot, keep 5 lows, +1 Mid.

And now its slicer. Only with more tank, less speed and without utility high.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.14 20:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Radcjk
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Lose a low, gain a mid IMO.

Now its Amarr Wolf.
Drop High utility slot, keep 5 lows, +1 Mid.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Radcjk
Drop High utility slot, keep 5 lows, +1 Mid.

And now its slicer. Only with more tank, less speed and without utility high.

Aargh! Don't you dare take away the only defence it has against close AB frigs (neut) and do not remove tank, it is Carthum dammit!

If a low is to be sacrificed it has to get a boost in resists or armour amount to compensate.
If a high is to be sacrificed split the range bonus into range+tracking or go all tracking to compensate for loss of nos/neut.

Slicer is a perfect example of why range is not everything.
At the ranges involved in lights-combat tracking is infinitely more valuable .. that is the cross the Retribution bears, it is not the lack of mid-slot that is biggest downside.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.03.14 20:27:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Slicer is a perfect example of why range is not everything.


Wait what? No, the slicer's only failings are in the CPU and speed. IMO it needs to go about 3750-4000 base with a MWD and another 30 CPU. But, its still a good ship - leagues better than the Retribution really.

-Liang

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.14 20:39:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Slicer is a perfect example of why range is not everything.


Wait what? No, the slicer's only failings are in the CPU and speed. IMO it needs to go about 3750-4000 base with a MWD and another 30 CPU. But, its still a good ship - leagues better than the Retribution really.

-Liang

Speed/range Slicer can be fun, but after I found that a Rupture with a single TE and 180's is able to shred it at 20km I gave up on it .. the number of viable targets is very limited.
Giving it 30CPU is like giving it a free heatsink and damage is certainly not what it is lacking Smile More speed/agility would be most welcome though.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.03.14 20:41:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Speed/range Slicer can be fun, but after I found that a Rupture with a single TE and 180's is able to shred it at 20km I gave up on it .. the number of viable targets is very limited.
Giving it 30CPU is like giving it a free heatsink and damage is certainly not what it is lacking Smile More speed/agility would be most welcome though.


To me the 30 CPU represents the ability to use T2 instead of uberly expensive best named and faction. The speed/agility really is necessary though.

-Liang

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.03.14 20:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
the number of viable targets is very limited.

Frigs except dram and dd.

Ab slicer is waste of time.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.03.15 00:02:00 - [29]
 

The retribution is fine tbh. It does decent damage in an AF gang. Anyone who says 'lulz just bring a bomber' is forgetting that bombers are PAPER thin, and it'll take a bundle of painters to out damage a retribution against a cruiser or smaller. Sure bombers have their place, but if they are your major dps, then you will start having problems pretty fast. While you are busy chewing on anything buffer fit, a wave or two of drones can kill or drive off your bomber, while a retribution can tank them just fine. The reason you bring AFs is survivability.

If your gang is only going to attack lone targets, it doesn't matter what you brought. Numbers always win. If theres a fair few of the other guys, then light drones add up fast and bombers can be alphaed by a lot of things.

Also bombers don't have proper tackle either if they have painters or damps or medium extedners, or basically anything they need to do their job properly.

Sure, the retribution is probably not your first choice, but then nothing is compared to a dram. But its cheap and adds reliable damage that has some good staying power.

MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2010.03.15 02:29:00 - [30]
 

In any PVP enviroment, the retribution sucks. There is simply no way to argue against this fact.

A combat frig's role is to tackle. period. The only frigates that really get away without tackle are the Griffin and ketsune, everything else brings tackle.

Why?

Because you are a frigate. That is their job. Even in a T2 frigate gang, you are still required to bring tackle. A retribution that sits at range with beams and plinks things is a waste of a ship - it brings no damage to the party, and actually endangers itself by sitting far enough away so as to drop transversal against the enemy gang's guns.

A retribution with a scramble will never get into range.

A retribution with a point can never hold it.

A retribution without propulsion can't maneuver, burn back to gate, stay with the gang, burn out of range, etc. etc.


Sure, if the retribution were bringing 300+ dps at 20km, its horrible one dimensionality might be forgiven as some sort of quirky "AF DPS boat". Sadly, the retribution doesn't even do this. All the other AFs put out similar if not better damage figures, and do it while tackling and while maneuvering. The ishkur could "snipe" with its warriors if it wanted, well past what any Retribution could ever hope to do. This does not make such a sniping ishkur a good ship, just as a retribution is not a good ship. Rail ishkurs will do essentially the same damage as a retribution, at the same ranges, with the same tank, and still bring tackle AND two flights of drones.

Amarr T2 frigates generally suck. This is undisputed. Bringing a retribution to a gang is pretty unforgivable - it brings no tackle and no damage to the party. It just sits there, plinks things with lasers, and pretends that is somehow a valuable contribution to the gang.

Buy a slicer - they are more fragile, but have the same damage at the same range, go muuuch faster, and tackle things. Or get a Crusader or Sentinel. Whatever. Pretty much any other t2 amarr frigate is more useful to a gang than a Retribution.



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