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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.02.25 09:15:00 - [211]
 

problem of old scorp isn't symmetry vs asymmetry. it's balance vs non-balance. ships simply isn't balanced. anyone first looking at it, will ask where is other wing. it's missing something on that left side. caldari are people of law and order. their design should reflect this: simple, industrial, efficient. maybe a bit boring, but, for caldari, ship is a tool. a mean to an end.

it's minmatar that need more varied ships. while they share boxy looks with caldari, minmatars should get more asymmetrical designs (still must be balanced). T3 really didn't make it right. it feels too caldari. while Republic isn't scrapping for ship parts any more, it shouldn't step away from it's heritage and cultural identity. each ship should feel personal. it's not just a vehicle. it's home. duct tape with passion.

balance: while aerodynamics are irrelevant in space, mass distribution is not. engines have to cover mass centers to provide proportionate thrust. otherwise ships would be hopelessly tumbling.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.02.25 09:33:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Alek Row
I like my ugly Tempest and I know lot's of people is not going to like this. But any chance of making it real? No? Damn...

OBS: I don't know where I found this pic, I have it for years, maybe old artwork?

It is drawn by one of the eve players and not from any of the CCP artists.

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.02.25 09:44:00 - [213]
 

OMFG AWESOME!! :D

Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.02.25 10:15:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 25/02/2010 10:37:03
A few points:

1. Firstly, the new Scorpion design is awesome, and the new art direction for Caldari boats is a welcome change from the horrible boxy spiny mess that they are today. I would like to see all Caldari ships redesigned this way.

2. I would like to see all Minmatar ships redesigned in the style of the Maelstrom and the Hurricane, although possibly retaining roughly their original shapes. This image, posted several times previously in this thread, is an excellent example of such a redesign, which maintains the shape of the Tempest while completely retooling its design.

3. PLEASE, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SCRAP THE DOMINIX AND START FROM SCRATCH. JUST TAKE THE CURRENT DESIGN AND THROW IT IN A FIRE. PLEASE. I'M BEGGING YOU. I WILL PERFORM FAVOURS, POSSIBLY OF A SEXUAL NATURE.

4. Please remove the tumour from the side of the Megathron. The Federation's iconic battleship has been suffering from cancer for three years now and desperately needs chemotherapy Sad

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.02.25 11:09:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Andreus LeHane
4. Please remove the tumour from the side of the Megathron. The Federation's iconic battleship has been suffering from cancer for three years now and desperately needs chemotherapy Sad



what? don't kill the megathron's pleasure hub. I has been there since the first time I saw one back in 2004.

bassie12bf1
Posted - 2010.02.25 11:12:00 - [216]
 

All ships should be done, that scorpion is sooo gonna look out of place when parked next to other ships.

Abhaya meshdatar
Preta Light Industries
Naraka.
Posted - 2010.02.25 11:39:00 - [217]
 

ShockedOMG widow looks awesome!

Also... This v
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
it's minmatar that need more varied ships. while they share boxy looks with caldari, minmatars should get more asymmetrical designs (still must be balanced). T3 really didn't make it right. it feels too caldari. while Republic isn't scrapping for ship parts any more, it shouldn't step away from it's heritage and cultural identity. each ship should feel personal. it's not just a vehicle. it's home. duct tape with passion.


As long as the ugly ones don't get uglier! while some of the minmatar ships are great others aren't. i personally wouldn't be heart broken if the Typhoon didn't look like a screwed up trashcan anymore.

DXYOC
Posted - 2010.02.25 12:31:00 - [218]
 

It looks too small.Maybe more details , antennas?
And the fact that its symmetrical kinda ruins its design for me.

Sarel Nox
Posted - 2010.02.25 12:50:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Lusulpher
ECM boats need more antennae.



agreed

Fina Kelitan
Posted - 2010.02.25 13:12:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Fina Kelitan on 25/02/2010 13:29:48
Edited by: Fina Kelitan on 25/02/2010 13:22:56
Edited by: Fina Kelitan on 25/02/2010 13:15:37
Edited by: Fina Kelitan on 25/02/2010 13:13:05
Originally by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt
As a cynical graphics programmer I have to ask why you are omitting the Z channel from your normalmaps when you could store it in the blue channel for some added precision, and cheapen the decode by not requiring a per-pixel square root to calculate the initial Z value...


It's probably DXT compressed, which ties the different colour channels together. Something you really don't want with normal maps. I'm willing to bet that this is the reason for the blockiness in the old texturing, as the resolution of the map is pretty similar. It also means that you need to do a normalise for every pixel lookup, which means you don't save any performance by storing the 3rd channel over calculating it.

They should use 3Dc for the normal maps, it's a two-channel variation of DXT with improved precision compared to the method of using one colour and the alpha of DXT5 (let alone DXT1), and at the same memory use.

Specifically: DXT5 gets you 2-bit precision blending between 6-bit values on the green channel (Normal X) and 3-bit precision blending between 8-bit values on the alpha channel (Normal Y). 3Dc gets you 3-bit precision blending between 8-bit values on both channels.

Racjel
Posted - 2010.02.25 13:21:00 - [221]
 

Beautiful Design!!! Razz

Elapidae
Posted - 2010.02.25 13:22:00 - [222]
 

The entire arguement CCP made against making Nag 3 turrets was the amount of :effort: it would take to change the model. A couple months later and CCP art spits out this abomination.

Don't you dare touch my tempest. Maelstrom looks rediculous. It's wings completely out of proportion. Make the maelstrom look more lowtech if you are going to do anything.

WarDecEvading HaulerAlt
War-Dec Evading Alt Corp
Posted - 2010.02.25 13:53:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt on 25/02/2010 14:25:30
Quote:
All ships should be done, that scorpion is sooo gonna look out of place when parked next to other ships.

It already rotates off-center and is the size of a battlecruiser, how much more out of place can it get?

Originally by: Fina Kelitan
It also means that you need to do a normalise for every pixel lookup, which means you don't save any performance by storing the 3rd channel over calculating it.

You need to do a normalize anyway because the quantization can cause normals to be more than unit length, especially at shallower angles with diagonal directions. If I remember, GPUs have had dedicated normalize units for a while which makes it faster than sqrt (which is actually rsqrt+rcp, while even unoptimized normalize is just rsqrt).

I've tried both approaches and including the blue channel is a pretty blatant quality improvement, largely because it acts as a stabilizer when one of the other channels gets hit too hard by quantization (something which, incidentally, even works in spite of the green/blue relationship because, due to the sin/cos relationship between the two, large changes in one correlate with small changes in the other).

It's particularly obvious at shallow angles, where the 6-bit green breaks down and it provides extra precision, and in high-complexity parts, where the 2-bit quantization breaks down and it prevents extreme changes in Z value. God help you if you have both at the same time!

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2010.02.25 13:57:00 - [224]
 

It's a pretty new shiny model...

i really don't like it. I already like the scorp model and it kinda pains me to see a lovely non-symmetric old school model be scrapped for this one. Scorp was the first BS I ever saw back in beta, always loved the freaky design since.

Also I obviously disprove of spending time on ship graphics when there's bugs and lag to be fixed (and yes, even graphics take a lot of time to integrate into a patch).

Not a fan

Fina Kelitan
Posted - 2010.02.25 14:39:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt
You need to do a normalize anyway because the quantization can cause normals to be more than unit length. If I remember, GPUs have had dedicated normalize units for a while which makes it faster than sqrt (which is actually rsqrt+rcp, while even unoptimized normalize is just rsqrt).


Ok, that's all true, if you are storing all three parts of the vector. If you are calculating Z you will end up with a normalised vector anyway, unless X and Y are so extreme that they form an above-unit vector on their own (the normal vector would have to be nearly flat to the model for that though).

Originally by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt
I've tried both approaches and including the blue channel is a pretty blatant quality improvement, largely because it acts as a stabilizer when one of the other channels gets hit too hard by quantization (something which, incidentally, even works in spite of the green/blue relationship because, due to the sin/cos relationship between the two, large changes in one correlate with small changes in the other).

In my experience adding Z produces really bad block artefacts with DXT, due to a 4x4 block needing to vary all 3 values independently. Rivets, seams, and other small features are good tests, due to needing -x with lower Z, near-0 x with higher z (fine so far) and +x with lower Z again (oh dear). That's even despite putting Y in the alpha channel.

Originally by: WarDecEvading HaulerAlt
It's particularly obvious at shallow angles, where the 6-bit green breaks down and it provides extra precision, and in high-complexity parts, where the 2-bit quantization breaks down and it prevents extreme changes in Z value.

Both of which are solved by 3Dc using 8-bit values with 3-bit blends.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.02.25 14:44:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 25/02/2010 14:46:02
I was thinking about why this model bothers me so much and I think I can be a bit more clear on the issue now. I'll ignore subjective preference issues about does it look good or not and just focus on the main design problem with the ship.

The big issue is, that it doesn't look like a ship that was designed by Caldari or any other faction that primarily focuses on efficiency. It looks like a ship ancient egyptians might design. Basicly it is for a culture that puts huge symbolic meaning on scorpions, so they go to great lengths to model their vessels after that symbol. It contradicts everything we know about the Caldari, so it raised warning flags in my mind immediately. The ship just doesn't fit their design philosophy of putting efficiency first, that resulted in the many asymmetrical designs of their ships, that we love and hate today.

The original design had some characteristics of a scorpion, but it was clearly designed as a spaceship first, so it still seemed appropriate. After all this is a common way to give nicknames to things, but the new ship breaks this and seems like it was specifically designed after a scropion from the start.

Now I can live with this, since it is likely to remain as an exception to the rule and it was more of a tweak of a symmetrical version of the original design. That said I hope it remains as an exception to the rule.

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.02.25 14:58:00 - [227]
 

so with faction designs coming out, when can we have an EoM geddon? Question

Comm Den
Posted - 2010.02.25 15:26:00 - [228]
 

is it possible to keep old ship models in game aswell? i mean as an option..u would have mor ships to choose from on the bright side sorta..make the blue prints have a t3 option for ship looks. something like thatLaughing. plus an option to use old ship effects again t3 recipes.

Tekumze Wolf
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.02.25 15:36:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Tekumze Wolf on 25/02/2010 15:36:40
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 25/02/2010 10:37:03
2. I would like to see all Minmatar ships redesigned in the style of the Maelstrom and the Hurricane, although possibly retaining roughly their original shapes. This image, posted several times previously in this thread, is an excellent example of such a redesign, which maintains the shape of the Tempest while completely retooling its design.


This. I would simply LOVE such a Tempest. Would not look so... ermm.. flimsy.

Just make sure it's still rough around the edges and has lots of rust :)
Make it dented... not smooth as on that picture. However awesome the pic it just doesn't have the "Minmatar rusty" look. Other then that it's awesome.

They should touch up all the ships. Not just for redesign purposes but just to make them look better.. more in character so to speak.

PS: designing along the lines of the hull name is a bad idea. Ships are designed for a purpose. Not named first and built to fit the name.
That's not even counting Caldari utilitarian nature.

Jhonny Informant
Posted - 2010.02.25 15:40:00 - [230]
 

A couple of questions for CCP

1) Scorpion looks great, but it seemed vague as to whether or not other ships in need of rework will get reworked. A few examples off the top of my head.

-Typhoon--> looks more like a freighter then an imposing battleship.
-Armageddon--> Yet another t1 ship that looks like it feel off the ugly boat. Looks like anything but Armageddon coming your way.
-Dominix--> Old war horse....looks more like an old cow in need of being taken out back and put down.
-Multiple frgs--> to many to list but many just are awful looking.
-Several Cruisers---> not as rampant as frigs but many like the blackbird etc look highly un astonishing.

2) How many ships ball parking can we expect to reasonably see reworked in either model or paint per expansion. 1, 2, 10? Go ahead and say one if you are not sure more then that will be done in time.

H3llHound
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.02.25 16:01:00 - [231]
 

With this new design(which i really like) it kinda looks and has the feel like taken out of StarCraft 2

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.02.25 16:04:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: H3llHound
With this new design(which i really like) it kinda looks and has the feel like taken out of StarCraft 2


many of these comments are, I believe, from the angle in which the screenshots were taken. They have the generic RTS "upper 3/4" view.

Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
Posted - 2010.02.25 16:49:00 - [233]
 

Well, there goes my proposal out the window.

I was going to propose that in order to make the Rattlesnake a little different (and to have the Guristas send the Caldari a little F-U) to make it a mirror image of the Scorpion.

I actually would have preferred for the missing wing to remain missing, but trying to tell the CCP Art department how to do their job is like telling water to stop being wet.

David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.02.25 17:03:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: David Grogan on 25/02/2010 17:04:19
Originally by: krickettt
Edited by: krickettt on 24/02/2010 17:00:49
That is flippin sexy. Dominix next please, it really looks like a shoe.
proof -> http://oeg-home.ru/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sh_10_by_oeg_kovad.jpg


the caracal looks like a stilleto shoe from the side

ccp please make the caracal looks cool........ right now its one of the fugliest ships in the game.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.02.25 17:39:00 - [235]
 

No, I can't be bothered to read the entire thread, so if someone has said it, consider this another endorsement of the idea:

As you go through the ships and redesign them, please make sure to fix the outside-of-ship origo/pivot points (eg. on the Execuror and Thorax hulls). They make ship-centered effects such as sensor boosters look absolutely awful (even more so than the need-to-be-replaced new-gen effects already do) since they originate from a point in space that isn't even connected with the ship that emits those effects.

Lijhal
Posted - 2010.02.25 17:58:00 - [236]
 

i like the new model of the scorp !!! really nice one

but the textures on it... well, it looks like plastics and not real metal . maybe its only me..

any chance that some other caldari ships gets a new model too? speaking for Moa, Caracal & Osprey hulls

thx

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.02.25 18:02:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 25/02/2010 18:04:10
For people that whine about how it is not reflecting Caldari efficiency and blah blah...

Take a look at the Merlin. Then compare it with the Scorpion. Then STFU, because to an engineer, the logical continuation is obvious.

All this asymmetry stuff etc people spew? If any vehicle engineer goes to his/her boss and says:
"Look here, we need to make this thing jut to the side and strap on a couple of propulsion mechanisms to make it go straight", he'll get 1) fired 2)laughed at 3) told to redistribute mass/ drag/ thrust/ surface so that there is no need for active re balancing.

And to people that will point out to me that modern aircraft are not aerodynamically statically balanced but dynamically, I will respond that in order to minimize correction input, they are symmetrical along their propulsion axis (external shape) as far as drag/ lift (any small differences are not as glaringly obvious as these on the old Scorpion ).

In space where there is no friction a spaceship has to balance on it's propulsion in relation to mass, along its main propulsion axis.

I understand that appearance is a matter of volume, not mass, but when you are doing control input optimization, you have to consider torque and, therefore distance*mass, therefore distance plays a very important role. I cannot fathom why anyone would fail to optimize mass *distance distribution and produce a very asymmetrical ship, especially in an efficiency centered culture like the Caldari.

Point to take is that if you follow nature's way of using asymmetry to create the illusion of larger size, you need to take also heed of the fact that longitudinal axis symmetry is almost never violated. (And is considered as disfigurement most of the times).

Heinz Schnaufer
Posted - 2010.02.25 18:28:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Heinz Schnaufer on 25/02/2010 18:28:03
It would be neat to give Gurista and Serpentis ships unique designs instead of just new paintjobs. The designs of Angel, Sansha, and Blood pirate faction ships increase their appeal.

And please keep camo paint :)

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.02.25 18:37:00 - [239]
 

I also can't help but notice that the Scorpion picture is missing ENGINE TRAILS!

(fix the bloody engine trails already!)

RLCHANCE
Amarr
The Shadow Cartel
War and Pestilence
Posted - 2010.02.25 19:18:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: RLCHANCE on 25/02/2010 19:26:10
Edited by: RLCHANCE on 25/02/2010 19:25:40
Edited by: RLCHANCE on 25/02/2010 19:25:03
Nice!!!!

Changing any other Ships looks?? Very HappyLaughingLaughing

new tempest????? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1002/EvE-Tempest.jpg


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