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Renias Zenmerr
Posted - 2010.02.20 09:53:00 - [1]
 

Hi forums o/

I was just wondering why CCP made 11 skills you absolutely have to train at some point. I just feels a bit annoying to have to train mandatory skills.
Anyone knows the reason for them?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.02.20 11:10:00 - [2]
 

If it's any consolation, CCP regrets putting them in the game…

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.20 11:11:00 - [3]
 

They're not mandatory.

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2010.02.20 11:50:00 - [4]
 

If you want to train skills with a decent speed, which everyone wants, they are mandatory.

Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2010.02.20 14:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Boltorano on 20/02/2010 14:49:24
With the introduction of the skill queue and the way new characters get a training bonus since Apocrypha, I would not be surprised if something like the following were introduced in the next 2-3 expansions:

1) Remove all Learning skills (Except maybe the skill "Learning" itself), give +10 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

2) Remove the advanced learning skills, give +5 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

CCP is not the kind of developer to let you re-distribute SP anywhere instantly, so one of these two plans is probably the only thing you can ever hope to see, as it is the only possible way to remove those skills without making large groups of players angry.

Edit: This is not my original idea, it is a variation on an idea proposed by another player whose name escapes me.

Terhi
Posted - 2010.02.20 16:22:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Boltorano
Edited by: Boltorano on 20/02/2010 14:49:24
With the introduction of the skill queue and the way new characters get a training bonus since Apocrypha, I would not be surprised if something like the following were introduced in the next 2-3 expansions:

1) Remove all Learning skills (Except maybe the skill "Learning" itself), give +10 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

2) Remove the advanced learning skills, give +5 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

CCP is not the kind of developer to let you re-distribute SP anywhere instantly, so one of these two plans is probably the only thing you can ever hope to see, as it is the only possible way to remove those skills without making large groups of players angry.

Edit: This is not my original idea, it is a variation on an idea proposed by another player whose name escapes me.


I do hope that you're correct.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.20 16:57:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 20/02/2010 16:57:58
Originally by: Renias Zenmerr
I was just wondering why CCP made 11 skills you absolutely have to train at some point. I just feels a bit annoying to have to train mandatory skills.

Originally by: McRoll
If you want to train skills with a decent speed, which everyone wants, they are mandatory.

Wow, to the both of you...

Oh no, Electronics and Engineering are mandatory too ! I mean, you can't be expected to fit a ship without them at a decently high level, preferably both at L5. Oh, and with WU5 and at least AWU4 too !
Wait, racial frigate is mandatory too ! At least to L4 for those that want a cruiser ! And cruiser to 4 for those that want a battleship ! And battleship to 5 for those that want capships, they don't want to fly frigates and cruisers and battleships, they just want that dreadnought ! Mandatory skills, waaaah!

Dammit, pretty much every skill is mandatory if you follow that line of thought !
You must really hate it Laughing

Restless Phantom
Posted - 2010.02.22 10:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 20/02/2010 16:57:58

Wow, to the both of you...

Oh no, Electronics and Engineering are mandatory too ! I mean, you can't be expected to fit a ship without them at a decently high level, preferably both at L5. Oh, and with WU5 and at least AWU4 too !
Wait, racial frigate is mandatory too ! At least to L4 for those that want a cruiser ! And cruiser to 4 for those that want a battleship ! And battleship to 5 for those that want capships, they don't want to fly frigates and cruisers and battleships, they just want that dreadnought ! Mandatory skills, waaaah!

Dammit, pretty much every skill is mandatory if you follow that line of thought !
You must really hate it Laughing



You are wrong in this Akita :(
Seeing as _ANY_ route you take in eve training skills as fast as possible is something you want.
If you go for trading skills you want learning skills, combat wants learning skills, indy wants learning skills.

Those others that you link are more of a choice, engineering for my trading alt? Why? Learning yes please.
WU5 / AWU4 for my alt miner that mines highsec(1.0) in a retty? Why? Learning yes please!

See?
Noone would not want learning to *some* degree, skipping out on them completely is ABSOLUTELY out of the question.. Thus they are mandatory, weapons arent, ship skills arent, tank skills arent, social/trade/indy/whatever arent.

With that said, I dont really mind them though, its just abit strange that they are there :) Specially with the new player joining and being told "train learning skills first, you will have to wait 2 weeks being able to do absolutely nothing fun but after that it gets slightly better!"

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.22 10:08:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Restless Phantom
Specially with the new player joining and being told "train learning skills first, you will have to wait 2 weeks being able to do absolutely nothing fun but after that it gets slightly better!"


People who do this to new players should be banned for griefing IMO.


Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.02.22 10:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

People who do this to new players should be banned for griefing IMO.




true

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.02.23 03:15:00 - [11]
 

Don't blame me. I just gave people the math, and told them how long they take to make themselves worthwhile. I never said they have to train them. Cool

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.23 06:10:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Restless Phantom
You are wrong in this Akita :(
Seeing as _ANY_ route you take in eve training skills as fast as possible is something you want.

Completely, utterly and patently untrue, if by that you would have meant "certain levels of learning skills".
Somewhat true, if you mean "ANY levels of learning skills".

Say you're a a brand new character that can just BARELY afford to buy some of the advanced learning skillbooks after a lot of effort, and maybe some implants... do you honestly think the better choice would be to spend all that ISK to get them "as fast as possible", instead of just focusing on ways to make more ISK ?
Sure, if you are a heavily funded alt that won't be used actively any time soon, then yeah, you are completely right, in that particular case, learnings and implants are as good as mandatory.

Learning skills are the first insidious choice to be made, and there's no "correct" answer universally valid for everybody.
Learning skills are a choice between short-term and long-term benefits - the higher in level for them you go, the less short-term gains you have, and the more long-term gains you can expect.

For a brand new character with very little ISK, stopping at L3 basic learnings until he gets the means to earn more ISK on a steady basis might be the best choice. For an alt qith no ISK issues, doing L5 basics and L4 advanceds, or even some L5 advanceds might be the best choice. It's all highly circumstantial.

Quote:
Noone would not want learning to *some* degree, skipping out on them completely is ABSOLUTELY out of the question

That much is true.

Quote:
Thus they are mandatory, weapons arent, ship skills arent, tank skills arent, social/trade/indy/whatever arent.

False again. For any particular EVE occupation, SOME skills are as good as mandatory, with maybe the exception of station-traders, which could just as well have next to no skills at all if they're good enough. The only bad thing you can say about learning skills is that, LONG TERM, they are important regardless of chosen occupation.

Quote:
With that said, I dont really mind them though, its just abit strange that they are there :) Specially with the new player joining and being told "train learning skills first, you will have to wait 2 weeks being able to do absolutely nothing fun but after that it gets slightly better!"

And people who say that should be drawn and quartered. It's one of the WORST advices any older player can give to a GENUINE new player.
Sure, tell them to train L3 basic learnings overnight in their first few days whenever they can, explain to them what the learning skills do for them long term and the advantages they get when they have higher learning skills, but for the love of god, DO NOT make them think the ONLY good choice is to get most learning skills done first before everything else.
Hell, if anything, I would STRONGLY urge the exact opposite : for genuine new players, learning skills should AT MOST take up 50% of the total training time "so far", but preferably no less than 10% of the time. How much, that's each player's choice. Shoving the "100% spent on learning early" idea in their brains is downright criminally negligent.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.23 08:49:00 - [13]
 

I once saw a suggestion that learning skills be added to the list of skills trial players cannot train. Whilst that might be a bit drastic, it might also be a good idea.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.02.23 09:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I once saw a suggestion that learning skills be added to the list of skills trial players cannot train. Whilst that might be a bit drastic, it might also be a good idea.

"This skill can't be trained before 1.6m SP", imagine the tears. Shocked

N Ano
Caldari
Templars of Space
Posted - 2010.02.23 10:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Boltorano
Edited by: Boltorano on 20/02/2010 14:49:24
With the introduction of the skill queue and the way new characters get a training bonus since Apocrypha, I would not be surprised if something like the following were introduced in the next 2-3 expansions:

1) Remove all Learning skills (Except maybe the skill "Learning" itself), give +10 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

2) Remove the advanced learning skills, give +5 to every character's attributes, and then a (+50% perhaps?) skill training speed bonus until that character makes up for any SP already invested in learning.

CCP is not the kind of developer to let you re-distribute SP anywhere instantly, so one of these two plans is probably the only thing you can ever hope to see, as it is the only possible way to remove those skills without making large groups of players angry.

Edit: This is not my original idea, it is a variation on an idea proposed by another player whose name escapes me.


I like these ideas, CCP should totally introduce this with Incarna because they are going to have to redo just about everything anyway.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.02.23 12:09:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Malcanis
I once saw a suggestion that learning skills be added to the list of skills trial players cannot train. Whilst that might be a bit drastic, it might also be a good idea.

"This skill can't be trained before 1.6m SP", imagine the tears. Shocked


all learning might be a bit harsh. tho, i could see advanced learning not being allowed on trial.

Noferatu
Posted - 2010.02.23 12:34:00 - [17]
 

Learning skills are (or at least, were) a unique aspect of Eve. They're also an intrinsic part of CCP's business model, in that it takes X amount of time for any new player to generate enough SP and experience before he/she can earn enough isk/month to start buying time cards instead of paying euros.

Don't expect that to change any time soon.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.23 12:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Noferatu
Learning skills are (or at least, were) a unique aspect of Eve. They're also an intrinsic part of CCP's business model, in that it takes X amount of time for any new player to generate enough SP and experience before he/she can earn enough isk/month to start buying time cards instead of paying euros.

Don't expect that to change any time soon.
Because you need any ingame skills to be able to scam someone?

Your point is sound in principal but since scamming is legitimate in this game it doesn't hold water.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.23 13:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Malcanis
I once saw a suggestion that learning skills be added to the list of skills trial players cannot train. Whilst that might be a bit drastic, it might also be a good idea.

"This skill can't be trained before 1.6m SP", imagine the tears. Shocked


If someone was that set on training them, then they could subscribe.

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2010.02.23 14:23:00 - [20]
 

When I started, I trainied up the learning skills because doing anything else felt like a waste of time.

I REALLY wanted to learn other stuff that was more fun but my inner min/maxer simply would not allow it. The thought of all the future training time lost was too much.

This killed the game for me both the first and second times I played it. I can certainly see how new players would be put off by the thought of having to train skills that give them 'nothing' for a month or two before they can think about getting better ships and equipment.

Obviously they don't HAVE to train these skills but those who understand the benefit will want to and they'll want to do so as soon as possible. This is even more true with the 'skill point gap illusion' seperating them from older players.


IMo, CCP should do away with the learning skills. I know first-hand that they contribute to a lot of players leaving eve in thier first month or two. It could be argued that they contribute a 'tough choice' dynamic but tbh, there more than enough 'essential' skills to do that already.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.23 15:05:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ambo
IMo, CCP should do away with the learning skills.

Or just start everybody with L4 basic and L3 advanced Twisted Evil

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2010.02.23 16:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ambo
IMo, CCP should do away with the learning skills.

Or just start everybody with L4 basic and L3 advanced Twisted Evil



Well yes, I have decent learning skills and implants and I certainly wouldn't want to train skills any slower... The idea higher up the thread of removing them and adding 10 to all attribs with something else to compensate for time already invested into learning skills sounds good.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.23 17:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ambo
The idea higher up the thread of removing them and adding 10 to all attribs with something else to compensate for time already invested into learning skills sounds good.

A bit, maybe, but not really. The only real issues are with L4->L5 learning. Most people HAVE NOT trained L5 advanced learnings, and some never even bothered with L5 basic learnings (except maybe "learning" itself).

The problem would be some form of fair compensation for "removed SP" - if you put in either fixed duration or fixed SP total or something like that, it could benefit some much more than others, and it would be... not well received. The only alternative that MIGHT be well-received would be an instant SP redistribution, but that would go against pretty much everything the skill system stands for.

Long story short, while it could have been done better, there is no GOOD reason to radically change it in any way, shape nor form.
The only additional concession (other than the reduction of prerequisites from L5 to L4 a couple of years ago) would be to auto-grant it to all people from the start to the levels where general consensus is "it's more or less mandatory in not a very long while", that being either 4b/3a or 4b/4a - that's basically a "non-refundable gift" of 22+ mil ISK and one or more days of skill training.
If you want to go to 5/4 afterwards or even 5/5, now, that's REALLY your choice.

Sprilk
Posted - 2010.02.23 18:09:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Noferatu
Learning skills are (or at least, were) a unique aspect of Eve. They're also an intrinsic part of CCP's business model, in that it takes X amount of time for any new player to generate enough SP and experience before he/she can earn enough isk/month to start buying time cards instead of paying euros.

Don't expect that to change any time soon.


You know... someone still purchased the game time card... if eve has Y number of people playing they make Yx15$ no matter how many people use isk to buy game time codes off others...

Your logic is the most broken and stupid logic i have ever seen... its worse logic then ships exploding are an isk sink.

I agree with the removal of learning skills.. they are rather pointless, and are admitidly fustrating to new players. I think the sugestion above about a 50% training speed increase until the skill points are made up is a good one... everyone should be happy (well except the noobs who will ***** that they dont get that because they dont have the learning skills... but there logic is only slightly less flawed then Noferatu's logic.)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.02.23 18:24:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Noferatu
Learning skills are (or at least, were) a unique aspect of Eve. They're also an intrinsic part of CCP's business model, in that it takes X amount of time for any new player to generate enough SP and experience before he/she can earn enough isk/month to start buying time cards instead of paying euros.

Don't expect that to change any time soon.
Except that, as mentioned, CCP themselves have stated that putting the learning skills in the game was a mistake.

b1zz
Posted - 2010.02.24 00:54:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: b1zz on 24/02/2010 07:35:53
There's no reason to remove Learning skills. The mandatory aspect of them is only a few days training. I don't think it's that big an imposition. And although skills like Engineering, Weapons Upgrades, Electronics etc aren't as mandotary they are certainly close to as mandatory as Learning, which means they too should be gifted to new players, or removed, if the Learning skills are going to be. And so the game starts to slip in the direction of dumbing down WOW-ification.

Really this discussion is about the L4-L5 divide, and those that aren't willing to make the commitment, yet hear of those that have and feel, who knows, a perfectionists discomfort maybe. It's a tough decision, difficult to make, good luck making it, game working as intended.

Edit: And btw, as I'm sure everyone knows, this subject has been discussed over and over and over and over...and over. So, in the interest of saving peoples time, I suggest all following posters locate their argument in those threads and copy/paste them in here (you should have no problem locating your argument in previous threads, despite their large size, because the arguments in all of them repeat only every few pages or so).

Angelzin
Gallente
Posted - 2010.02.24 04:19:00 - [27]
 

I didn't like learning skills either and didn't train them all at the begining either.

At first I trained them to level 4 basics and level 3 advanced and then as time went on kept plugging them in.
Now after 8.5 months in game i have 5/4 and like them.

Its all about choices that people make. No need to take them away and reward people who didn't put any time in them with higher attributes.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.02.24 10:12:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ambo
When I started, I trainied up the learning skills because doing anything else felt like a waste of time.

I REALLY wanted to learn other stuff that was more fun but my inner min/maxer simply would not allow it. The thought of all the future training time lost was too much.

This killed the game for me both the first and second times I played it. I can certainly see how new players would be put off by the thought of having to train skills that give them 'nothing' for a month or two before they can think about getting better ships and equipment.

Obviously they don't HAVE to train these skills but those who understand the benefit will want to and they'll want to do so as soon as possible. This is even more true with the 'skill point gap illusion' seperating them from older players.


IMo, CCP should do away with the learning skills. I know first-hand that they contribute to a lot of players leaving eve in thier first month or two. It could be argued that they contribute a 'tough choice' dynamic but tbh, there more than enough 'essential' skills to do that already.


So because you - by your own admission - made a dumb choice, CCP should remove that choice for everyone?

xXxWardenMagenxXx
Posted - 2010.02.24 10:34:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Except that, as mentioned, CCP themselves have stated that putting the learning skills in the game was a mistake.


If this is the case, then why not cut the cost of the advanced skill books? 22.5m is a joke for a newbie. Or even better, grant all learning books to new accounts but have them set to 0. You want the gain, then you still have the time pain, but at least all earnings can be used for the fun stuff

This may p*ss off people who have already progressed and had the drain to their ISK, but then again, advanced players are likely to the stage to have lost more down the back of their pilot seat by now. Not the case for the poor starters. I think they are a great asset when you start playing as you can actually see progress as those other skills in your queue reduce in time as each learning skill is gained. Very gratifying

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.02.24 10:54:00 - [30]
 

I think not only should all new characters have the learning skills maxed they should also have a racial frigate, cruiser and BS plus the core skills maxed as well because the poor things have to wait a few weeks before they can use them well.





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