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1600 RT
Posted - 2010.03.19 11:05:00 - [121]
 

dramiel is a good ship yes and like DEVs have already said is what is meant to be.
and for all the people that cry about it OPness just think you can buy 5 ceptors for the price of a dramiel and it coul be killed easily as a ceptor, even better because it has a bigger sig rad

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.19 15:15:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: 1600 RT
dramiel is a good ship yes and like DEVs have already said is what is meant to be.
and for all the people that cry about it OPness just think you can buy 5 ceptors for the price of a dramiel and it coul be killed easily as a ceptor, even better because it has a bigger sig rad

Which of course is completely negated by the much higher speed (25%+ more than all Interceptors).

And if you think that 6k+ regenerating shield EHP dies as easily as 2-4k armour/hull EHP then you are clearly beyond any sort of reasoning.

Didn't know there was a DEV that has said that they meant for one of the revamped ships, the most easily accessible (read: cheapest), to be OP.
Unless of course you interpret "equal to or slightly better" as "you need never fly anything else".

Riddle me this: If they were meant to be god-mobiles, why are the others not as good? Did they make a mistake with the one or other three? Smile

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.03.19 17:36:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 19/03/2010 17:37:26
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Game balance over price does not work and never has.


nicely proven by the number of titans in game atm. ("there will never be more than 3-4 titans")


Proven??

Ok if this claim is true then why exactly do I see so many more regular vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction and t2 battleships in pvp? Are the faction and t2 battleships really that much worse for pvp than the regular t1 - if we ignore price?

Ignoring price and insurability when determining if something is overpowered is just plain silly. But everyone who doesn't want to risk the isk to fly a dramiel will try to dance around this. I suspect some dramiel whiners need to examine whether they are just afraid to lose the isk and are jealous that others are willing to take that risk.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:11:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 19/03/2010 17:37:26
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Game balance over price does not work and never has.


nicely proven by the number of titans in game atm. ("there will never be more than 3-4 titans")


Proven??

Ok if this claim is true then why exactly do I see so many more regular vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction and t2 battleships in pvp? Are the faction and t2 battleships really that much worse for pvp than the regular t1 - if we ignore price?

Ignoring price and insurability when determining if something is overpowered is just plain silly. But everyone who doesn't want to risk the isk to fly a dramiel will try to dance around this. I suspect some dramiel whiners need to examine whether they are just afraid to lose the isk and are jealous that others are willing to take that risk.


CCP thought that titans are so expensive that there will never be more than 3-4. now we have 300+. i think that is definitely a sign for balancing things with price will never work.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.03.26 16:43:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 19/03/2010 17:37:26
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Game balance over price does not work and never has.


nicely proven by the number of titans in game atm. ("there will never be more than 3-4 titans")


Proven??

Ok if this claim is true then why exactly do I see so many more regular vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction and t2 battleships in pvp? Are the faction and t2 battleships really that much worse for pvp than the regular t1 - if we ignore price?
….


CCP thought that titans are so expensive that there will never be more than 3-4. now we have 300+. i think that is definitely a sign for balancing things with price will never work.


I see you can't answer the questions I put to your view, without demonstrating that cost balancing does in fact work.
Here is another:
Would you agree that if titans cost the same as frigates there would be a lot more of them than 300+?


darius mclever
Posted - 2010.03.26 16:51:00 - [126]
 

did you ever consider that there are more things than price that influence a decision?

did you also notice that the number of titans went up since dominion as the ship *finally* is of more use than drive by DD or bridging people? (same goes for motherships)

titans are a lot of investment in time and dedication. not sure you noticed ... unlike your little frigate, cruiser or BC, you can not dock the damn thing really and you are kind of stuck in it.

not many people want that.

Darkth Pinkhelmut
Posted - 2010.03.26 17:13:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Darkth Pinkhelmut on 26/03/2010 17:15:05
dont think Dramiel needs nerfing too much Its a very expensive ship (for its size) and should be better than a t2 frig in the role it was designed for.

in this case it should be the fastest ship in the game, however it doesnt appear to have any vunerabilities its mega fast has good DPS and can tank well.

keep it basically the same, 10% less base hitpoints (it can easily speed tank anyway)
that makes it slightly less of an " I Win" Ship

Kara Sole
Posted - 2010.04.06 23:28:00 - [128]
 

I noticed the claw has a slightly higher base speed than the dramiel, but when you put an MDW on each of them the dramiel has over 1000km/s more speed. Where does the dramiel get it's extra speed from?

ty in advance

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.04.06 23:36:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Kara Sole
I noticed the claw has a slightly higher base speed than the dramiel, but when you put an MDW on each of them the dramiel has over 1000km/s more speed. Where does the dramiel get it's extra speed from?

ty in advance


mass.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.04.07 01:40:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 07/04/2010 01:43:30
Originally by: Cearain


Ok if this claim is true then why exactly do I see so many more regular vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction and t2 battleships in pvp? Are the faction and t2 battleships really that much worse for pvp than the regular t1 - if we ignore price?



Yes, actually, the T2 battleships are really that much worse for PvP. Marauders have terrible sensor strength (have fun being permajammed by a flight of light ECM drones) and blackops are just all around bad, at least for actual combat. Judging by the number of them that get sold, most people don't think the blackops jump bridge is worth it, either.

Some of the faction ships are pretty decent, and personally, I see a lot of them getting used in PvP. It also should be noted that your "regular vanilla t1 battleships" are pretty damn good across the board to begin with, and with insurance can be flown for next to nothing. I don't see as many faction BS as I see regular ones, but I also don't see as many dramiels as I do T1 frigates, so there isn't much of a point there.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.04.07 05:21:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
titans are a lot of investment in time and dedication. not sure you noticed ... unlike your little frigate, cruiser or BC, you can not dock the damn thing really and you are kind of stuck in it.

not many people want that.


even better, try to sell a titan when in a paranoid corp/alliance when you get tired of it....things get real interesting then lol.


Dramiel owns solo and small gang pvp....accept and move on. Takes 2 sets of racial skills to master, its edge has been earned imo.

And given spectacular insurance payout on T2...if one pilot says screw it I don't get crap back on 20mil...lets blow up 80 mil if caught and get some more performance for their isk its their money, their choice. You choose not to counter with faction...well at least you'll have the isk to fix your clone after podding and replace your ship.




Sith LordX
Posted - 2010.04.08 12:27:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: SilentHunter13
Hi all, just wanted to bring to your attention the new toy of everyman and his dog in eve.

The Dramiel.

Now if I remember correctly about the infamous days of riding around in a interceptor going 8km/s or faster, ishtars doing 4km/s and ravens doing similar is long since over due to the nano nerf. However along comes a new change to faction ships and suddenly there is a ship that goes 2x as fast as a t2 fitted interceptor (which might I add is made for speed).

On just about every single fleet roaming around 0.0 space these days there is a dramiel. Gate camps in empire often involve a dramiel and hell while i'm writing this I want to go out and buy a dramiel because I LOVE NANO SHIPs. However, as much as I love nano ships and being super bloody fast with the ability to still do dps I would like some balance instead. If we cannot have nano ships doing stupid speeds how come it is possible to have a frigate that only costs 80million isk but can go at break neck speeds, too fast for anything short of another dramiel to catch and kill. How long will it be before people roam around with dramiel fleets?

Yes I know that this race is a speedy one and that the designers of the dramil were obsessed with speed but the fact that no other ship can reach that speed doesn't make it slightly overpowered as a interceptor replacement?




The Dramiel is a pirate faction frigate. It was made better for a reason. Like how all pirate faction ships are very powerful pvp ships. They are rare and expensive.

But have advantages over every other ship in their class. Such as a daredevil can web you to -90% speed with a faction web from 20km away close in and pop your dramiel so fast its not even funny. (400 DPS Blaster gun ship.) Theres a counter for everything. Try to remember that. There are also mimn recon ships chat can web from 30 km away, use those to kill a dramiel. There are also curses you know they can neut from 40km away. Arazus can scram from about 24km away and disrupt from 100km away with faction gear.

Or try a ton of the other faction ships that have web/neut bonuses. Or maybe you just don't know how to fit a interceptor correctly. As with snakes you can get 8km/10km with a regular interceptor with a overloaded MWD. Dramiels are not the only ships that can reach that speed. Daredevils can do the same thing. Most max ceptor pilots can. Maybe you just need more skills.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.04.08 13:23:00 - [133]
 

yes, Dramiel requires a nerf.

The damn ship turned into real epidemy.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.04.08 13:50:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 07/04/2010 01:43:30
Originally by: Cearain


Ok if this claim is true then why exactly do I see so many more regular vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction and t2 battleships in pvp? Are the faction and t2 battleships really that much worse for pvp than the regular t1 - if we ignore price?



Yes, actually, the T2 battleships are really that much worse for PvP. Marauders have terrible sensor strength (have fun being permajammed by a flight of light ECM drones) and blackops are just all around bad, at least for actual combat. Judging by the number of them that get sold, most people don't think the blackops jump bridge is worth it, either.

Some of the faction ships are pretty decent, and personally, I see a lot of them getting used in PvP. It also should be noted that your "regular vanilla t1 battleships" are pretty damn good across the board to begin with, and with insurance can be flown for next to nothing. I don't see as many faction BS as I see regular ones, but I also don't see as many dramiels as I do T1 frigates, so there isn't much of a point there.


Some people here were claiming that isk cost is not a balancing factor. Yes I know, it’s silly of me to argue with people who make such crazy claims. So, of course, I pointed out that price is indeed a balancing factor as proven by the faction versus market items including battleships. (We can agree to disagree on the marauders being worse than vanilla t1 battleships.) My point (that isk is a balancing factor) is proven by the fact that people still fly vanilla t1 battleships instead of faction battleships. The insurance on the non faction t1 battleships makes the “isk cost” close to nothing. Accordingly, despite not being as powerful as the faction variant people still fly them in pvp.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.04.08 14:03:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
did you ever consider that there are more things than price that influence a decision?

did you also notice that the number of titans went up since dominion as the ship *finally* is of more use than drive by DD or bridging people? (same goes for motherships)

titans are a lot of investment in time and dedication. not sure you noticed ... unlike your little frigate, cruiser or BC, you can not dock the damn thing really and you are kind of stuck in it.

not many people want that.


Are you arguing that even if titans only cost as much as t1 frigates, we still wouldn’t have more of them because of these other drawbacks? Gee I could buy a titan for 300k isk but then I wouldn’t be able to dock it, so I won’t buy it. Instead I will by that incursus.

Really, give it up. At that cost most people could just self destruct their titan and buy another when they wanted to fly it again. The price and insurability (isk cost) are indeed a balancing factor. The price and insurability balances heavily against pirate ships. The longer you refuse to accept this the less credibility you have.
This point is why all your whining about pirate ships being better than other ships that sell for a fraction of the cost is not really convincing to many.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.04.08 14:53:00 - [136]
 

It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.04.08 15:27:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it


yeah and for this reason everybuddy and his dog flies a dramiel nowadays...

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.04.08 17:19:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it


yeah and for this reason everybuddy and his dog flies a dramiel nowadays...


Then that means... More noobs in expensive ships to kill.
Learn not to fear the ship, fear the pilot

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.04.09 00:17:00 - [139]
 

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6262093 took me all of 42 seconds to find this... and i see an average of 5-6 solo losses PER DAY to CHEAPER ships...

boost the other ships instead, because they are underpowered.


Laurew
Posted - 2010.04.10 00:07:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it


^^ This

A rapier will own a dramiel. stop the whining

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.04.10 03:04:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Laurew
Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it


^^ This

A rapier will own a dramiel. stop the whining

A lot of ships can own a dramiel, provided they are at their optimal ranges on the dramiel, but the problem is that any dramiel pilot with half a brain will stay far away from any ship that is a threat (rapier, neuts, etc), and most of the time can burn out of said ships optimal range in the time the ship takes to lock the dramiel.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.04.10 18:36:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Originally by: Laurew
Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a Frig...

It will die to any non-brain dead half-assed set up cruiser, and it's not the only Frig that can disengage at will.

Man-Up and learn how to fight it


^^ This

A rapier will own a dramiel. stop the whining

A lot of ships can own a dramiel, provided they are at their optimal ranges on the dramiel, but the problem is that any dramiel pilot with half a brain will stay far away from any ship that is a threat (rapier, neuts, etc), and most of the time can burn out of said ships optimal range in the time the ship takes to lock the dramiel.



A Dramiel that is at +40k from a Rapier ( T2 Web range at recon 5 ) is hurting you how?

In other words..

If you scared him off he is no longer a threat to you or your fleet, the dramiel is good at running away but that is not a new tactic and there are many other ships that use this tactic as well.

your just forum raging because you could'nt figure out how to catch one / kill it or have never fought or flown one.

Your best case senario uber smart dramiel pilot fighting a re-tarded cruiser pilot solo in low / 0.0 space with no interferance from anyone... It just does'nt happen all that often.

It's a frig FFS, and a 70mill one at that!

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.10 19:20:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a frig FFS, and a 70mill one at that!

You forgot the brilliant argument of "bring friends" and you would have regurgitated the entire line of defence of that most heinously broken frigate.

If you read the threads on this topic you'd realise that a majority of the people opposing the current OP'ness could care less about null-sec.
It has managed to completely ruin low-sec romps .. no other ship since the Falcon in its heyday has had such a debilitating effect on such a large scale.

They easily comprise 20% of all frigate hulls in space in some areas, completely supplanting AFs and Interceptors and to an ever increasing degree cruisers.
But hey, they can be can killed by Minmatar Recons in gangs, Titans, Small-gun bait BCs and utterly gimp-fit cruisers so they must be balanced .. riiiight.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.04.10 19:29:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Meeko Atari
It's a frig FFS, and a 70mill one at that!

You forgot the brilliant argument of "bring friends" and you would have regurgitated the entire line of defence of that most heinously broken frigate.

If you read the threads on this topic you'd realise that a majority of the people opposing the current OP'ness could care less about null-sec.
It has managed to completely ruin low-sec romps .. no other ship since the Falcon in its heyday has had such a debilitating effect on such a large scale.

They easily comprise 20% of all frigate hulls in space in some areas, completely supplanting AFs and Interceptors and to an ever increasing degree cruisers.
But hey, they can be can killed by Minmatar Recons in gangs, Titans, Small-gun bait BCs and utterly gimp-fit cruisers so they must be balanced .. riiiight.



It will die or have to run away to any competent Thrasher pilot solo, or any cruiser that has the fore sight to fit a Med Neut and Warrior 2's

If you lack the experience to kill them, that's realy not the darmiels fault

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.04.10 19:30:00 - [145]
 

Most certainly Angel nerf is needed...

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.04.10 20:14:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari
It will die or have to run away to any competent Thrasher pilot solo, or any cruiser that has the fore sight to fit a Med Neut and Warrior 2's

If you lack the experience to kill them, that's realy not the darmiels fault

MWD+Punisher+Gatlings = dead Thrasher, and that is the very common shield buffer AC Thrasher, artillery fits are destroyed without even hitting armour. Only thrasher I have issues with is plate, scram/web (or TD) fits .. everything else is killboard padding.
So yea, your statement makes a lot of sense if you consider bog standard T2 fitted Punishers superior to Dramiels Smile

How many cruisers have drones bays, have you checked recently? Have you checked if they also have room for spares to replace losses?
Medium neut does very little on its own and the high tracking, high speed, insane lock time and capless guns means that warriors are dispatched with great ease.
You need to throw in at least one web, preferably two .. now what cruisers do you have left?

Otherwise you are correct.

They are too much at once.

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2010.04.10 20:38:00 - [147]
 

wtf is this?

what ever i carnt beat ill go cry about it and get it removed CAUSE I CARNT ****IN BEAT IT AND IM SOS TUPID TO FIND AWAY TO KILL IT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

go cry on some other game moron

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2010.04.10 21:17:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Meeko Atari
It will die or have to run away to any competent Thrasher pilot solo, or any cruiser that has the fore sight to fit a Med Neut and Warrior 2's

If you lack the experience to kill them, that's realy not the darmiels fault

MWD+Punisher+Gatlings = dead Thrasher, and that is the very common shield buffer AC Thrasher, artillery fits are destroyed without even hitting armour. Only thrasher I have issues with is plate, scram/web (or TD) fits .. everything else is killboard padding.
So yea, your statement makes a lot of sense if you consider bog standard T2 fitted Punishers superior to Dramiels Smile

How many cruisers have drones bays, have you checked recently? Have you checked if they also have room for spares to replace losses?
Medium neut does very little on its own and the high tracking, high speed, insane lock time and capless guns means that warriors are dispatched with great ease.
You need to throw in at least one web, preferably two .. now what cruisers do you have left?

Otherwise you are correct.

They are too much at once.


I am not here to tell you how to fly or fit your ships, If you consider the Punisher better than the Dramiel than that is your opinion.

I have no problem killing or running off Dramiels in Frigs and Destroyers and Cruisers, If you do...Than you must change your play style, EI : Adapt

But i do realize it is easier and (isk wise ) cheaper to whine on the forums


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