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JonnyRandom
Posted - 2010.08.01 02:39:00 - [361]
 

I'd like to participate now that it's back to weekdays (I work weekends, couldn't do those), but I've never had SiSi before, and have a question. Since the test is for testing fleet engagements and I'm required to be in at least a battleship, how am I to do that if I've not played on SiSi before? Or does that server follow some different rules and all characters you make there start with max skills and billions of isk or something?

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.01 02:51:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: Rex Hargrove
Edited by: Rex Hargrove on 31/07/2010 16:41:09
Originally by: Grath Telkin

Nothing but truth



Seriously, I understand you can be a bit less "invasive" on sisi but why can't you take some data from TQ? Due to the nature of sov warfare and node reinforcement requests, you KNOW when fights are likely to happen. There's giant f'in timer in space for christ sakes, so you know if something really important like a CSAA or a station is coming out in 1 day 18 hours and 17 minutes, it's probably gonna be a fight there. At worst you say hey, "You guys get to get off work early today, and you get tomorrow off during the day. Show back up at 2 in the morning and prepare to collect data for about 5 hours while our players black screen and figure out why the servers are melting." You get the data you go home, repeat for the next 3 weeks of fights, and then spend the next 2 months trying to find a fix.

At this point there's enough broken stuff on TQ where no one will really care if you break the game for a couple hours while collecting data as long as you are working towards a fix for all of these problems.


Well, for one TQ doesn't have test patches and all that fun stuff.
They don't really need the test patches, they need data, lots and lots of data.

They have a hard time getting appropriate numbers on the test server to generate the amount of data they need, so instead of having monitoring software on the test server, put it in the damn live server where you can get your data.

Test patches have nothing to do with data gathering, the important bottleneck in the process.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.01 04:23:00 - [363]
 

I've been wondering - Why does CCP need 500 people for testing when you can reliably reproduce the lag with over 200 on an unreinforced lowsec node.

Bishop Bob
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:10:00 - [364]
 

Edited by: Bishop Bob on 01/08/2010 09:11:03
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
I've been wondering - Why does CCP need 500 people for testing when you can reliably reproduce the lag with over 200 on an unreinforced lowsec node.


Probably the same way I can reproduce my car breaking down by not putting any fuel in it. Having the same symptoms doesn't mean it's the same cause.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:14:00 - [365]
 

That's bad news for CCP then, it means they've got two things to fix.

ZiggyMeister
Minmatar
The Bat Empire
Posted - 2010.08.01 19:06:00 - [366]
 

Edited by: ZiggyMeister on 01/08/2010 19:07:33
Originally by: JonnyRandom
I'd like to participate now that it's back to weekdays (I work weekends, couldn't do those), but I've never had SiSi before, and have a question. Since the test is for testing fleet engagements and I'm required to be in at least a battleship, how am I to do that if I've not played on SiSi before? Or does that server follow some different rules and all characters you make there start with max skills and billions of isk or something?


To use SiSi now you don't need to have used it before.

If you can fly a BS for at least 30 days you'll probably be able to fly it on SiSi, as SiSi is a mirror of TQ made a few days ago. I have no idea when it was made, but I guess they will probably make a fresh one before the Mass Tests begin.

Regarding ISK, you'll have the same ISK you had when they made the mirror from TQ, but all market items on SiSi are 100 ISK/unit, so you'll have no problem buying and fitting a BS.

For more info you should refer to the firts page of this Thread and check the help/tips CCP links there.

Budsin Adar
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:14:00 - [367]
 

I would go there but i have no idea where that system is. Also the station enviroments and places out side and after every jump have not been fixed on the test server. So till they get that stuff fixed I won't go anywhere as of yet. WHy not Jita? since there should be less of a problem there okay you can't DDD it but wait you can do somethingsShocked CCP Tanis hope you can get this fixed then I may find some way of getting there but atm going from system to system is a pain in the butt auto piloting is the only way there then if getting an item it works cuz then bring up market and find it then warp to dock and have to repin everything again SISI has to many bugs and no 1 atm can use drones on there ships get that fixed then we have a game Peace all and fly safe. I will join with an alliance or CCP for that time who ever calls first laters all 0/Idea

Gandolf
Gallente
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:31:00 - [368]
 

gather your data from REAL fleet battle im 99.9% sure people wouldnt mind as long as u let them know u were doing it and there was going to be a benifit at the end

GermxXx
Posted - 2010.08.02 21:49:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: ZiggyMeister

To use SiSi now you don't need to have used it before.

If you can fly a BS for at least 30 days you'll probably be able to fly it on SiSi, as SiSi is a mirror of TQ made a few days ago. I have no idea when it was made, but I guess they will probably make a fresh one before the Mass Tests begin.

Regarding ISK, you'll have the same ISK you had when they made the mirror from TQ, but all market items on SiSi are 100 ISK/unit, so you'll have no problem buying and fitting a BS.

For more info you should refer to the firts page of this Thread and check the help/tips CCP links there.


Made a few days ago?
Well my account hasn't been mirrored in like 2 months or so... I'm still waiting for that mirror to happen so my sisichar can catch up.

Morgrim Firebrandt
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:27:00 - [370]
 

I have an idea that will get you the testers you seek, maybe too many.

Make it a policy that anyone who logs in for the scheduled tests gets 100,000 bonus sp on Tranquility for the character they logged in to test with, prorated to the length of time they were on vs the length of the test. If it's a 4-hour test and you stay for 1, you get 25,000 sp. The amount might need some tuning, but I guarantee you'll have people hammering the server to get on during test time and you are not out any cost to get the players except the time it takes to parse the server logs and give those people their sp.


Josef Huffenpuff
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.03 00:59:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Budsin Adar
I would go there but i have no idea where that system is.

Autopilot like the rest of us

Originally by: Budsin Adar
Also the station enviroments and places out side and after every jump have not been fixed on the test server

Huh? I Don't know what you mean. Bug report it, that's what the test system is for

Originally by: Budsin Adar
WHy not Jita? since there should be less of a problem there okay you can't DDD it but wait

Answered your own point there. Also - cant cyno, cant use caps, cant use super caps. Not everyone lives in Jita.

Originally by: Budsin Adar
auto piloting is the only way there

Yep, same as the rest of us or try a "moveme" request in the chat channel

Originally by: Budsin Adar
have to repin everything again

Check your pinned window settings in the 'Esc' menu, sounds like you've got them wrong

Originally by: Budsin Adar
SISI has to many bugs and no 1 atm can use drones on there ships

SiSi has the same bugs as TQ. If you cant use drones you could ermmm.... bug report it maybe ?

Originally by: Budsin Adar
I will join with an alliance or CCP for that time who ever calls first laters all 0/Idea

If you're not going to join and aren't actually looking for help to your problems, why are you posting here ?

Xiaodown
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.08.03 05:07:00 - [372]
 

Do we get paid for this now?

Or are we still doing their QA and integration testing for free?

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.08.03 05:10:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: Josef Huffenpuff

SiSi has the same bugs as TQ. If you cant use drones you could ermmm.... bug report it maybe ?




Have you visited the test server recently ? The overview is a huge mess which is full of bugs, the main one is not updating at all when warping between grids.

It's all been bug reported and attached to defects, on two days we'll see if they have fixed it all or it will have to be postponed like the previous one was.

Xaroth Brook
Minmatar
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.08.03 09:08:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Gandolf
gather your data from REAL fleet battle im 99.9% sure people wouldnt mind as long as u let them know u were doing it and there was going to be a benifit at the end


but would 99.9% of all people mind running logserver (and submit said logs), and would 99.9% of those people mind having an even more crappy fight ... or would 99.9% of all people actually stay in 1 location..

not to mention, would those people mind said 'tests' to result in loss of their ships? as it's not really feasible to reimburse an entire fleet battle... the amount of tinfoil hattery around would cause another 30 threadnaughts claiming favouritism because side A got one more ship reimbursed than side B ...

Pneumon Blaster
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:16:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Xiaodown
Do we get paid for this now?
Or are we still doing their QA and integration testing for free?


No, the people here are paying for doing their QA and Integration testers job.

THAT'S JUST LOL :-)


Fyrillicus
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:07:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Morgrim Firebrandt
I have an idea that will get you the testers you seek, maybe too many.

Make it a policy that anyone who logs in for the scheduled tests gets 100,000 bonus sp on Tranquility for the character they logged in to test with, prorated to the length of time they were on vs the length of the test. If it's a 4-hour test and you stay for 1, you get 25,000 sp. The amount might need some tuning, but I guarantee you'll have people hammering the server to get on during test time and you are not out any cost to get the players except the time it takes to parse the server logs and give those people their sp.




I would have to call that an EXCELLENT idea. No real cost to CCP, yet the players get a real gain in skill points for their efforts.

+1

Elowine
Caldari
FP Enterprise
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:13:00 - [377]
 

Originally by: Fyrillicus
Originally by: Morgrim Firebrandt
I have an idea that will get you the testers you seek, maybe too many.

Make it a policy that anyone who logs in for the scheduled tests gets 100,000 bonus sp on Tranquility for the character they logged in to test with, prorated to the length of time they were on vs the length of the test. If it's a 4-hour test and you stay for 1, you get 25,000 sp. The amount might need some tuning, but I guarantee you'll have people hammering the server to get on during test time and you are not out any cost to get the players except the time it takes to parse the server logs and give those people their sp.




I would have to call that an EXCELLENT idea. No real cost to CCP, yet the players get a real gain in skill points for their efforts.

+1


Love the idea, another +1

Leonard Delmordaine
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:33:00 - [378]
 

Hey CCP why dont you go where people are asking for node re-enforcement... i mean seriously. Why on the test server... seriously... do it on tq where the **** is happening not on a test server... looks like total sh**. Well I wonder when all the old player base is gone who actually cared for this game what shall CCP do... FAIL>.. Dust wont be anything... to many shooters out there for you to compete... and this walking in stations... thought this was a space ship game!

Hawk Starfighter
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:49:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Leonard Delmordaine
Hey CCP why dont you go where people are asking for node re-enforcement... i mean seriously. Why on the test server... seriously... do it on tq where the **** is happening not on a test server... looks like total sh**. Well I wonder when all the old player base is gone who actually cared for this game what shall CCP do... FAIL>.. Dust wont be anything... to many shooters out there for you to compete... and this walking in stations... thought this was a space ship game!

I'm just guessing here, but trying out patches that MIGHT work on big fleet fights on TQ might not be very popular you know, that's why we have a testserver, so they can test things.
They aren't just sitting back and looking at the lag you know.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2010.08.03 18:40:00 - [380]
 

My carrier pilot is presently living in a W-System with his carrier. Can moveme move me out? I cannot dock.

Or should I suicide out and get a new carrier?

P.S. They do not mirror POSes on sisi so our tower is not in the WS, but the carrier is! Just floating there. Was in a hangar.

Tina OPPENHEIIMER
Posted - 2010.08.04 07:02:00 - [381]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
My carrier pilot is presently living in a W-System with his carrier. Can moveme move me out? I cannot dock.

Or should I suicide out and get a new carrier?



Autodestruct and buy a new one (100 ISK the carrier !)
attention : no MS & Titan available on marcket

Sniggering Badger
Unforeseen Consequences.
THE UNTHINKABLES
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:29:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Elowine
Originally by: Fyrillicus
Originally by: Morgrim Firebrandt
I have an idea that will get you the testers you seek, maybe too many.

Make it a policy that anyone who logs in for the scheduled tests gets 100,000 bonus sp on Tranquility for the character they logged in to test with, prorated to the length of time they were on vs the length of the test. If it's a 4-hour test and you stay for 1, you get 25,000 sp. The amount might need some tuning, but I guarantee you'll have people hammering the server to get on during test time and you are not out any cost to get the players except the time it takes to parse the server logs and give those people their sp.




I would have to call that an EXCELLENT idea. No real cost to CCP, yet the players get a real gain in skill points for their efforts.

+1


Love the idea, another +1


+1 here also.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:43:00 - [383]
 

Last time I tried to patch my SISI version it broke it.

/recopies for the millionth time
/installs latest patch

Oh they have it on a new build, but no patch yet again.

IMHO the amount of hoops they expect us to jump through and the time we waste getting ready for these events is out of order, last time round they issued the latest patch in the afternoon before the test. If they could at least keep the build stable for 48 hours before a test it would feel a little less like you're bending over backwards to help CCP kick you in the teeth.

WaiKin Beldar
Tormentum Insomniae
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:06:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Last time I tried to patch my SISI version it broke it.

/recopies for the millionth time
/installs latest patch

Oh they have it on a new build, but no patch yet again.

IMHO the amount of hoops they expect us to jump through and the time we waste getting ready for these events is out of order, last time round they issued the latest patch in the afternoon before the test. If they could at least keep the build stable for 48 hours before a test it would feel a little less like you're bending over backwards to help CCP kick you in the teeth.


Sick of the same things here.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:32:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: Pneumon Blaster
Originally by: Xiaodown
Do we get paid for this now?
Or are we still doing their QA and integration testing for free?


No, the people here are paying for doing their QA and Integration testers job.

THAT'S JUST LOL :-)




i can tell you as a software engineer that works on massively parallel systems...

their QA and Integration testers CANNOT reproduce tests like this. it's not possible. they need warm bodies controlling lots of ships. simulating that with software is not the same and the results of that might not be valid (or even show the bug).

that's why games have Beta tests, and why MMOs maintain a test server at all times. It's literally impossible to test everything in an MMO before it goes live. Especially unexpected corner conditions (Which is most likely the cause of the lag issues).


say CCP has 60 employees world wide. they spend 40 hours a day for 4 weeks performing testing.

60*40*4 = 9600 man hours
the average population of the live server is 20-30k... meaning 1 hour of live is 20-30k man hours of testing. and this is on an MMO with a rather low players-to-devs ratio. imagine Everquest, Vanguard, World of Warcraft, etc.

stop being a whiny ***** and help CCP find the cause of the issue. the best programmers on the planet always need help testing situations like this (that are caused by large connection counts) as they're unreproducible in a lab - they just have to be done.


Red Widdow
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:17:00 - [386]
 

If I show up at say, 20:30 will this mess the test up or will I still be able to help? I would think it would simulate RL when it comes to fleet engagements.

Xiaodown
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.08.04 15:13:00 - [387]
 

Edited by: Xiaodown on 04/08/2010 15:19:05
Originally by: Denidil
Originally by: Pneumon Blaster
Originally by: Xiaodown
Do we get paid for this now?
Or are we still doing their QA and integration testing for free?


No, the people here are paying for doing their QA and Integration testers job.

THAT'S JUST LOL :-)




i can tell you as a software engineer that works on massively parallel systems...

their QA and Integration testers CANNOT reproduce tests like this. it's not possible. they need warm bodies controlling lots of ships. simulating that with software is not the same and the results of that might not be valid (or even show the bug).

that's why games have Beta tests, and why MMOs maintain a test server at all times. It's literally impossible to test everything in an MMO before it goes live. Especially unexpected corner conditions (Which is most likely the cause of the lag issues).


say CCP has 60 employees world wide. they spend 40 hours a day for 4 weeks performing testing.

60*40*4 = 9600 man hours
the average population of the live server is 20-30k... meaning 1 hour of live is 20-30k man hours of testing. and this is on an MMO with a rather low players-to-devs ratio. imagine Everquest, Vanguard, World of Warcraft, etc.

stop being a whiny ***** and help CCP find the cause of the issue. the best programmers on the planet always need help testing situations like this (that are caused by large connection counts) as they're unreproducible in a lab - they just have to be done.




Hey, I'm all for helping them!

All I'm saying is:

1.) For starters, CCP has like 500 employees world-wide. Not all developers obviously, but just sayin'.

2.) The mass testings need to actually happen - rather than being pushed back. But with the current state of the test server, I dunno how it's going to work with the borked overview, in-space navigation, window resize, etc.

3.) They have the ability to compensate us, and if they did, they'd get a LOT more participation - just give 100k skill points on TQ for people who participate. No big deal. Free to them, valuable to us!

~X


Pneumon Blaster
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2010.08.04 17:07:00 - [388]
 

Edited by: Pneumon Blaster on 04/08/2010 17:09:19
Originally by: Denidil
Originally by: Pneumon Blaster
Originally by: Xiaodown
Do we get paid for this now?
Or are we still doing their QA and integration testing for free?


No, the people here are paying for doing their QA and Integration testers job.

THAT'S JUST LOL :-)




i can tell you as a software engineer that works on massively parallel systems...

their QA and Integration testers CANNOT reproduce tests like this. it's not possible. they need warm bodies controlling lots of ships. simulating that with software is not the same and the results of that might not be valid (or even show the bug).

that's why games have Beta tests, and why MMOs maintain a test server at all times. It's literally impossible to test everything in an MMO before it goes live. Especially unexpected corner conditions (Which is most likely the cause of the lag issues).


say CCP has 60 employees world wide. they spend 40 hours a day for 4 weeks performing testing.

60*40*4 = 9600 man hours
the average population of the live server is 20-30k... meaning 1 hour of live is 20-30k man hours of testing. and this is on an MMO with a rather low players-to-devs ratio. imagine Everquest, Vanguard, World of Warcraft, etc.

stop being a whiny ***** and help CCP find the cause of the issue. the best programmers on the planet always need help testing situations like this (that are caused by large connection counts) as they're unreproducible in a lab - they just have to be done.




I can tell you as QA and Integration software engineer, i have never seen a company that would test production environment using their customers as testers. :)

Our role is to pay for the game, and play it.
Their role is develop and fix it.
How - its their problem not ours :)


// but the only problem here i see here is they expect it for free.
so we expect something for free from them too - like free play time, or SP bonus mentioned before.

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:43:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Pneumon Blaster
I can tell you as QA and Integration software engineer, i have never seen a company that would test production environment using their customers as testers. :)

Our role is to pay for the game, and play it.
Their role is develop and fix it.
How - its their problem not ours :)


// but the only problem here i see here is they expect it for free.
so we expect something for free from them too - like free play time, or SP bonus mentioned before.
They have set up the test server with special builds of the code, presumably instrumented for testing. They ask players to log on and help out occasionally. You have two choices: log on to the test server and take part in the test, or not.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything, and if they want your opinion on how to do QA, they'll ask.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.04 22:22:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: Pneumon Blaster


I can tell you as QA and Integration software engineer, i have never seen a company that would test production environment using their customers as testers. :)

Our role is to pay for the game, and play it.
Their role is develop and fix it.
How - its their problem not ours :)


// but the only problem here i see here is they expect it for free.
so we expect something for free from them too - like free play time, or SP bonus mentioned before.


you've never worked at an MMO developer then :D my employer's QA department is lucky.. we write financial switch (ISO 8583 message handlers) and ATM driving applications, etc. really easy to do coverage testing, MMOs have so many more orders of magnitude of possible code and actor interactions it's not even funny.

but offering SP/hour bonus on Tranq for helping on SiSi would be a great idea to get people


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