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blankseplocked Has Dominion Made Things A Whole Lot Worse In EVE?
 
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CommmanderInChief
Posted - 2010.02.08 09:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: CommmanderInChief on 08/02/2010 16:25:43

Dominion was supposed to be the great new sov mechanics change, well we have all noticed the issues but ok they are teething problems and will get resolved at some point.
However my concern is really around the fact that dominion was supposed to allow smaller skirmishes, perhaps better chances for small alliances to get into 0.0. Ok that was fully documented however Dominion certainly alluded to that being the case. But i think things have taken a tunr for the worse and infact there still isnt any chance for smaller alliances, and the rich are only getting richer and the big alliances only getting bigger, at some point perhaps to swallow up control of nullsec.

Some points to consider

  • SOV is no longer linked to towers, so no need for a tower in every system those for big alliance saving a ton of cash on fuel and logistics

  • Ok moon gold reduced, however more moons are going up in price to about the same as dysp and prom for example tech moons which are a whole lot more abundant - again as we have seen big alliances grabbing these like crazy - no one can do anything.

  • So much easy to gain sov, great however the big alliances are EASILY taking space, look how quick IT, -A-, Atlas have been taking space everywhere, before these campaigns took months now its weeks, even days if some key systems are taken

  • Station holders still are key to controlling space, hence for smaller alliances make no difference they still will get blobbed to death, so dont dare venture in 0.0 without permission

  • We are not seeing small skirmishes rather that huge blobs, bigger than before! people want to take whole regions as its easy to do so

  • Titans - we have seen like 32 titans in one fleet WTF!! seriously this is just mental - good thing as i predicted easier to kill but bringing 32 titans or so well i cant see many dreads/caps surviving to kill a titan

  • I mean this is just a few items..



I think these new mechanics, needed of course are going to have a detrimental impact on eve, are we going to see just 4 entities or so totally controlling eve? with everyone being pets? Sandbox you say? well not really as everything you want to do depends on these bigger alliances really especially around null sec.

"I dont want to be a pet, but you have to if your going in to 0.0, but i dont want to, but you have to.......errrr"
One thing is that the olng serving players have had it all, a platform to grow, make loads of isk, industry etc when no one was really around, and gain a massive footing in eve. or new players the advantages that older players had is massive, is this fair on the new players of course it isnt..This is the PROBLEM with having ONE Instance, because you have the case where only certain factions control the entire game and new players dont have a chance, hence why eve has not really expanded like it has done in the past..is eve dying? prob not..am i dying inside? yes...will i leave eve? prob not as ive invested alot of years into this game, i aint about to biomass that

before you say I have played eve for 6 years and been in the big alliances, fleets yada yada but from a player whos seen it, done it this moment in eve history does worry me somewhat..this is not about me, ive done everythingm just about the whole game in general..maybe im wrong but maybe im not..

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.02.08 10:05:00 - [2]
 

It sucks, but that's the way it is..it's not possible for smaller alliance to hold null sec space if a bigger alliance decides they don't want you there. This means you become a pet or you move the hell out, either before you are blobbed to death or after.

The simple fact is, as long as there is an advantage to having more space ships than the next guy there will never be a chance for smaller alliances with out being pets. Hence the reason I have no desire to live in null sec and just make short roams out there.

Your only choice to hold space, with out becoming someone's pet is to be a wormhole alliance or just live in low sec.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.02.08 10:08:00 - [3]
 

Nerf power blocks and then small alliances would have a chance at being in 0.0

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.02.08 10:20:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: CommmanderInChief
  • SOV is no longer linked to towers, so no need for a tower in every system those for big alliance saving a ton of cash on fuel and logistics

  • I think some people who missed paying their bills would like a word with you…
    It still costs, and you still want POSes all over the place, so the difference is minimal at best.
    Quote:
  • Ok moon gold reduced, however more moons are going up in price to about the same as dysp and prom for example tech moons which are a whole lot more abundant - again as we have seen big alliances grabbing these like crazy - no one can do anything.

  • Directly contradicts your first point (because more moons to cover to yield the same income = higher upkeep costs) and also raises the question: how has this made things worse than before?
    Quote:
  • So much easy to gain sov, great however the big alliances are EASILY taking space, look how quick IT, -A-, Atlas have been taking space everywhere, before these campaigns took months now its weeks, even days if some key systems are taken

  • This is a good thing. So no, it has not made things worse. Dynamic field of play = fun. The amount of upheaval we've seen since Dominion among small and large alliances has been a boon for the game and contradicts your implicit claim that only the big ones are allowed on the playing field.
    Quote:
  • Station holders still are key to controlling space, hence for smaller alliances make no difference they still will get blobbed to death, so dont dare venture in 0.0 without permission

  • Again, how has this made things worse?
    Quote:
  • We are not seeing small skirmishes rather that huge blobs, bigger than before! people want to take whole regions as its easy to do so

  • A function of server performance, rather than mechanics, and Dominion has made blobs worse to be in than before, so that kind of contradicts your point.
    Quote:
  • Titans - we have seen like 32 titans in one fleet WTF!!

  • Yes. They suddenly have a place and role in the battlefield and make battles fun. Increase exposure also means increased chances of loss. Both of these are good things.
    Quote:
  • I mean this is just a few items..

  • You should mention a couple of more since the ones you have so far don't really point to Dominion making things worse.

    Omal Oma
    Shadowed Command
    Fatal Ascension
    Posted - 2010.02.08 11:16:00 - [5]
     

    I'm a very new player to EVE. However, either I really get the point of this game or have really missed it.

    I came here to play the best PvP game on the market where there is a lot of combat and the political meta gaming is the best out there.

    This is not a game where, when you claim space it belongs to you indefinitely. I am on the understanding that the space you claim should be just as at risk as the ship you fly. Having alliances and friends (being a pet) is apart of the meta game and not wanting this means you need to either be bigger, stronger or work out some kind of political deal with the power blocks who currently control the space you wish to occupy.

    The fluidity of the Sov system Dominion has introduced has made war and combat more more frequent. The large power blocks are fighting over a lot of space and eventually either their systems will be lost from rapid expansion or they will grow in numbers with many pet alliances to hang on to the systems they have.

    Smaller alliances are now becoming more powerful under the umbrella of the larger ones because they are capable of growing into space the larger guys can no longer afford upkeep on.


    Either I've missed the point of this game or the OP has.

    Feel free to correct me.


    Spurty
    Caldari
    V0LTA
    VOLTA Corp
    Posted - 2010.02.08 11:43:00 - [6]
     

    I read your points and although I agree with the core idea that dominion has broke something, o believe it was more fleet fighting lag than the existence of blobs. If you could actually control your ship you could bomb the blob down.

    You have to be very lucky however to be lined up with enough bombers at the moment to break the blob and doing well just seems to make the node fall over.

    Before I sign off, I'll add that it's still well too soon to be calling the new sov system a failure. Not enough time has passed, not enough bills been paid and huge coffers built up on r64 moon goo need to be depleated before stability can set in.

    Basically the tl;dr is CCP need to get on top of the lag monster and we need to be patient. Magic bullets are just that, magic. They don't really exist

    JitaPriceChecker2
    Posted - 2010.02.08 11:49:00 - [7]
     

    Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 08/02/2010 11:48:59
    Originally by: Tippia
    Originally by: CommmanderInChief
  • SOV is no longer linked to towers, so no need for a tower in every system those for big alliance saving a ton of cash on fuel and logistics

  • I think some people who missed paying their bills would like a word with you…
    It still costs, and you still want POSes all over the place, so the difference is minimal at best.
    Quote:
  • Ok moon gold reduced, however more moons are going up in price to about the same as dysp and prom for example tech moons which are a whole lot more abundant - again as we have seen big alliances grabbing these like crazy - no one can do anything.

  • Directly contradicts your first point (because more moons to cover to yield the same income = higher upkeep costs) and also raises the question: how has this made things worse than before?
    Quote:
  • So much easy to gain sov, great however the big alliances are EASILY taking space, look how quick IT, -A-, Atlas have been taking space everywhere, before these campaigns took months now its weeks, even days if some key systems are taken

  • This is a good thing. So no, it has not made things worse. Dynamic field of play = fun. The amount of upheaval we've seen since Dominion among small and large alliances has been a boon for the game and contradicts your implicit claim that only the big ones are allowed on the playing field.
    Quote:
  • Station holders still are key to controlling space, hence for smaller alliances make no difference they still will get blobbed to death, so dont dare venture in 0.0 without permission

  • Again, how has this made things worse?
    Quote:
  • We are not seeing small skirmishes rather that huge blobs, bigger than before! people want to take whole regions as its easy to do so

  • A function of server performance, rather than mechanics, and Dominion has made blobs worse to be in than before, so that kind of contradicts your point.
    Quote:
  • Titans - we have seen like 32 titans in one fleet WTF!!

  • Yes. They suddenly have a place and role in the battlefield and make battles fun. Increase exposure also means increased chances of loss. Both of these are good things.
    Quote:
  • I mean this is just a few items..

  • You should mention a couple of more since the ones you have so far don't really point to Dominion making things worse.


    1 month ago goonswarms were making posts like that.

    EVERYTHING IS FINE AS LONG AS I AM IN TOTAL POWER THANKS TO THE ******ED GAME MECHANICS.

    Admiral Fen
    Posted - 2010.02.08 11:50:00 - [8]
     

    Its made it worse for me personally, as alot of people are upgrading their sapce, and now all killing NPCs in amonolies isntead of belts, much harder to find a ratter, as you have to look around the system with directional alot more carefully, plus use that 30 second onboard scanner and make a best guess at which one they are in. Especially systems with like 15 anomolies all around a single planet, it can be hit and miss at teh best of times.

    All dominion has done it made it safer for ratters in 0.0, which is bad, from my point of view :(




    Tippia
    Caldari
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    Posted - 2010.02.08 12:31:00 - [9]
     

    Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
    1 month ago goonswarms were making posts like that.

    EVERYTHING IS FINE AS LONG AS I AM IN TOTAL POWER THANKS TO THE ******ED GAME MECHANICS.
    Funny thing is, they still are. And if they're not, it just proves the OP wrong… Wink

    Carniflex
    StarHunt
    Fallout Project
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:03:00 - [10]
     

    I do not like the new timers. They make blobs that block my sun. At least towers were armed unlike current structures.

    It makes few people very happy (those that were responsible for all the millions of m3 of fuel) and a lot people a bit unhappier (those sitting in those giant blöbs lagging out).

    Overall the situation is quite similar as before. Dreads are the new battleships and alliances live and die by the number of dreads (and titans also nowdays) they can field. There still is no reason to tolerate some 'small guy' near you who can be ganked by your enemies to gain bridgehead in 'your' territory.

    CommmanderInChief
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:10:00 - [11]
     



    Hi Tippia o/

    Let me respond and hopefully clear up somethings, wow all these quotes make me dizzy :)

    Quote:
    It still costs, and you still want POSes all over the place, so the difference is minimal at best.


    This isnt anywhere near the same as before dude, firstly you only have poses on certain profitable moons, before it was a case of spamming the system just to ensure you keep sov, you will know yourself that there has been times when you have fought over a system with 30 moons and one alliance has 16 large towers and the other 14 especially over station systems. This is no longer required, so the cost difference is massive, the logistics difference is massive and so is the time required to manage all those poses.


    Quote:
    Directly contradicts your first point (because more moons to cover to yield the same income = higher upkeep costs) and also raises the question: how has this made things worse than before?


    Well after my first explanation i hope this covers that, the purpose was to lower the cost of premium moon gold as it was becoming just an enormous ISK generator, so all good, but then tech moons have become nice ISK makers, so now alliances are grabbing these, and there are tons of them, so infact this contradicts the purpose of lowering the dysp/prom moon income. Infact they probably be making more money now for moons.


    Quote:
    This is a good thing. So no, it has not made things worse. Dynamic field of play = fun. The amount of upheaval we've seen since Dominion among small and large alliances has been a boon for the game and contradicts your implicit claim that only the big ones are allowed on the playing field.


    Im not saying it wasnt a good thing, however my point was that alliances like yourself, and Atlas, -A- are now taking entire regions EASILY! Small alliances and corps have just moved around purely because of normal conflicts. Look at IT for example 3 huge regions you have got in what a matter of a couple of months? it just to take that long just for a few systems, remember delve how fortified that was, would take months and months to penetrate, now it doesnt. Smaller alliances just cant compete so the bigger established alliances are just swallowing up all the space, what for? well just cos you can? its not like they need it?
    Why does -A- need Provi?, Why Does IT need Fountain, Delve, Querious? The same for other areas, half the systems will be empty your just taking control for control sake. My point is that the same old big alliances are in control of eve, whilst all new alliances have become pets and you know that is true. They step out of line they instantly get squashed, this has happened many times. Im not saying thats bad as such, but the bigger alliances are becoming MORE powerful and rich than before with BIGGER blobs, i mean jesus 32 titans on one field WTF..is this what dominion was supposed to be about ? Wasnt my impression.

    Quote:
    Again, how has this made things worse?


    Wasnt the purpose of dominion to help smaller alliances gain control easier? I know its a grey area, but that was the general assumption.

    Quote:

    A function of server performance, rather than mechanics, and Dominion has made blobs worse to be in than before, so that kind of contradicts your point.


    Whats that got to do with server performance and not having smaller skirmishes? Yes may be worse to be in blobs but that hasnt stopped anyone, infact thats been a major tactic hasnt it, even you guys used it to your advantage to the grid wouldnt load for opposition, so how can you say that?

    Quote:
    Yes. They suddenly have a place and role in the battlefield and make battles fun. Increase exposure also means increased chances of loss. Both of these are good things.


    They have always had a place, just 1 or 2 at a time, bringing 32 titans is just stupid, increase chance of loss fine, but with so many titans, i mean they are even now used to take down structures etc!

    Nooma K'Larr
    Minmatar
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:37:00 - [12]
     

    If eve is ever to become "chess-like" then the answer is to limit the sizes of alliances. This will force the creation of more smaller alliances fighting for space.


    De Guantanamo
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:42:00 - [13]
     

    why are people so stupid to think that "the little guy" should be able to put up a fight against "the big guy"

    dumbest concept ever; get more friends, sign yourself into pet life, or stick to npc 0.0

    ps: compare the sov map to a year ago...dominion has definitely changed a thing or two

    Ralnik
    Alpha Squad
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:42:00 - [14]
     

    Edited by: Ralnik on 08/02/2010 13:45:19

    TBH, CCP screwed up when they caved in to all the whining about SOV cost and lowered it. It's fairly obvious by the amount of space that is getting gobbled up, that it's not expensive enough. IMO, CCP should have done some sort of sliding scale.

    You start of with X amount of ISK needed to keep SOV in X amount of systems. After this every certain about of systems, say 10 has a price increase on the SOV prices. Eventually it should get to the point that it's no longer profitable to keep gobbling up more space.

    This of course wouldn't stop anyone from having NAP's to gobble up space, but at least in that situation there is "chance" that they fall out of favor with each other over time and more chances for fighting among themselves.

    On the flip side it would possibly allow smaller entities to hold on to a few systems here or there, because the big guys wouldn't really have a reason to curb stop them.

    CCP need to make it unprofitable for one alliance to hold more than one region and it should be "very" expensive just to hold on to one.

    CommmanderInChief
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:45:00 - [15]
     

    Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
    If eve is ever to become "chess-like" then the answer is to limit the sizes of alliances. This will force the creation of more smaller alliances fighting for space.




    Well this was something i thought about, however alliances will just band together formed by the same leadership, so i dont think that would make any difference tbh mate

    RootEmerger
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:46:00 - [16]
     

    Originally by: CommmanderInChief



    Quote:
    Again, how has this made things worse?


    Wasnt the purpose of dominion to help smaller alliances gain control easier? I know its a grey area, but that was the general assumption.


    Wrong assumption.
    The stated "motif" of Dominion has been to help more -peoples- in 0.0, not more entities...
    sov has an higher basic cost, lower "passive" gains (moons lose value) but a lot higher "active" value to exploit which you need a lot more people working the system so to speak...
    so if you want to maintain all those nice systems you conquered, you will require to hire more and more peoples and keep them happy or you will risk to go broke (*).

    I've never seen in any devblog stated that this would make little entities competitive agianst big players - where have you read that?


    (*)or... that was the original gig, but then whiners happened as always and the exponential sov costs has been greatly lowered, so even potential gains have been redesined to balance...

    Daenosa
    Ghost Festival
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:47:00 - [17]
     

    Just a comment on the big alliances versus smaller ones.

    A small alliance will little chance a big alliance for obvious reasons, but isnt that the whole reason of alliances?
    Go find some more corps to join a smaller alliance until you can rival the bigger one.
    Just please dont sit on the forums saying that smaller alliances should have a chance against someone twice their size


    Shawna Gray
    Gallente
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:51:00 - [18]
     

    Originally by: CommmanderInChief


    Wasnt the purpose of dominion to help smaller alliances gain control easier? I know its a grey area, but that was the general assumption.



    Not at all. The purpose of dominion was to make 0.0 more attractive to players in general.

    EVE is game that dont set limits on how many players you can bring, so a small alliance will always be at a disadvantage until that fundamental rule is changed. You should know this after 6 years. In other words get some more friends.

    CommmanderInChief
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:51:00 - [19]
     

    Originally by: Ralnik
    Edited by: Ralnik on 08/02/2010 13:45:19

    TBH, CCP screwed up when they caved in to all the whining about SOV cost and lowered it. It's fairly obvious by the amount of space that is getting gobbled up, that it's not expensive enough. IMO, CCP should have done some sort of sliding scale.

    You start of with X amount of ISK needed to keep SOV in X amount of systems. After this every certain about of systems, say 10 has a price increase on the SOV prices. Eventually it should get to the point that it's no longer profitable to keep gobbling up more space.

    This of course wouldn't stop anyone from having NAP's to gobble up space, but at least in that situation there is "chance" that they fall out of favor with each other over time and more chances for fighting among themselves.

    On the flip side it would possibly allow smaller entities to hold on to a few systems here or there, because the big guys wouldn't really have a reason to curb stop them.

    CCP need to make it unprofitable for one alliance to hold more than one region and it should be "very" expensive just to hold on to one.


    @De Guantanamo

    Dude you have not read a single thing i have said, just came on emoraged and decided to emoragepost without even thinking..thanks for the contribution Laughing

    The problem with the above although I do agree in principle is that alliances are no longer even taking sov in these normal systems, unless its got good moons, they have no need to , look at tenal its empty, alliances are just controlling the stations mainly, so again saving a massive amount of time, money becuase no need to hold sov on them or even put a pos up anymore.

    CommmanderInChief
    Posted - 2010.02.08 13:57:00 - [20]
     

    guys you need to step of the emorage podium, and relax, this wasnt about smaller alliances vs big alliances at all, its was just a small item in a much bigger topic. So please reread.. Your obviously alts of people in big alliances, after 6 years i have noticed that :)

    Its just a normal discussion guys and as I said personally its not about what i want or anything, ive been there and done it all its about how eve is as a whole, why cant you have a normal conversation?
    btw thanks to the guys who have managed to post constuctively..

    Soldis
    Minmatar
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Posted - 2010.02.08 14:06:00 - [21]
     

    there's good and bad, I always like interface refinements, but there is never enough, which of course they do on purpose cause then their updates would be smaller and unnoticed


    Daenosa
    Ghost Festival
    Posted - 2010.02.08 14:07:00 - [22]
     

    Originally by: CommmanderInChief
    guys you need to step of the emorage podium, and relax, this wasnt about smaller alliances vs big alliances at all


    You mentioned it first hehe.
    No alts in no alliances just feel strongly about people wanting to be able to take on larger forces with a much smaller force and they think its unfair they cant.

    As i mentioned im not in an alliance so i cant comment on the cost of maintaining a system, i thought CCP said it was going to be more than what the pos system was like?

    Ti'anla
    Minmatar
    Posted - 2010.02.08 14:11:00 - [23]
     

    I'm gonna say no for the simple, likely selfish reason that I've been having more and more fun playing since Dominion was deployed.

    Ana Vyr
    Caldari
    Posted - 2010.02.08 14:33:00 - [24]
     

    Small alliances/corps are never going to be able to hold space unless the big fish leave them alone. That's just how the game works. Superiority in numbers is the law.

    MP Rhianna
    Posted - 2010.02.08 15:00:00 - [25]
     

    I vote worse because I lost my ship fittings.

    The rest doesn't concern me as I've given up on 00 life as I don't have the time or patience to deal with that world. See the forum there are several good threads about the actual mechanics of living in 00/making money and how a 'new' player could expect to get into a 00 alliance if they even could.

    It just doesn't seem like fun to me to fight for 'them' even if they are a great bunch of people when I log in to 'play' the game I pay for. Nor does it seem like fun to have to do all the extra crap that is involved in making isk out there and bringing it back to empire or just getting around w/o getting ganked by some roaming band.


    I learned in a few days of reading the forums that small corporations have no place in thinking they can go out to 00 and tame it on their own, unless no one cares about them or that space o/w they wouldn't likely last long. Initially I thought the game was huge and I could go out to the 'frontier' with a few others and make it ours but that isn't practical for how I play (casual) and what is required to keep what is 'yours'.


    I'm much more interested in WH life with a decent corp rather than an alliance overlord/neighbor out in 00 so dominion means mostly nothing to me other than some power shifts I read about and don't really care about.

    Malcanis
    Caldari
    Vanishing Point.
    The Initiative.
    Posted - 2010.02.08 15:09:00 - [26]
     

    tl;dr: Dominion has made things in EVE largely the same.

    Kerfira
    Kerfira Corp
    Posted - 2010.02.08 16:02:00 - [27]
     

    The only thing really wrong with the new sov system is that it's still based on timers. Without timers, blobbing would be much harder. Sov should be earned over time (1-2 weeks rolling) by activities in the system(s), incl. shooting other peoples ships....

    CommmanderInChief
    Posted - 2010.02.08 16:11:00 - [28]
     

    Originally by: Daenosa
    Originally by: CommmanderInChief
    guys you need to step of the emorage podium, and relax, this wasnt about smaller alliances vs big alliances at all


    You mentioned it first hehe.
    No alts in no alliances just feel strongly about people wanting to be able to take on larger forces with a much smaller force and they think its unfair they cant.

    As i mentioned im not in an alliance so i cant comment on the cost of maintaining a system, i thought CCP said it was going to be more than what the pos system was like?


    true - but i did say - perhaps better chances for small alliances to get into 0.0. not that it was specifically for that.. but anyway its a small item in a much bigger discussion its just one of the things..Wink

    Catherine Frasier
    Posted - 2010.02.08 16:11:00 - [29]
     

    Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
    If eve is ever to become "chess-like" then the answer is to limit the sizes of alliances. This will force the creation of more smaller alliances fighting for space.
    I am mortified to find myself in agreement with you, but I do agree.

    Ranger 1
    Amarr
    Ranger Corp
    Posted - 2010.02.08 16:20:00 - [30]
     

    Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/02/2010 16:21:56
    Actually, I do think smaller groups will start to have an effect on the larger alliances, but we haven't gotten to that stage yet.

    Currently the larger powers are going for broke, taking advantage of blunders and the new Sov mechanics (which has been highly exciting).

    It is only after borders and populations have stabilized, and area's have been developed to support that population, that they begin to become vulnerable to the smaller groups.

    Raiding parties that keep local 0.0 inhabitants from making the isk necessary to support themselves easily will start to thin out the populations of many area's by hitting them in the wallet. People tend to be lazy, and once they are set up to make their isk solely in 0.0 they won't want to go back to hopping into an empire alt to do so. Instead they will migrate to the more "secure" area's of 0.0 to make their daily bread.

    It will take time, but I think over the next year we will see new small gang/group tactics employed on a larger scale than anything previously seen.

    By the way, the point of Dominion was to get more people into 0.0. New people. That part of the concept is already working well. Look closely at the composition of IT and you will see what I mean.



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