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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.02.04 12:04:00 - [1]
 

CCP Atlas' newest dev blog discusses our efforts to combat fleet lag, and shares some of the results of our investigations into the probable causes.

Please note: we are doing another test round on Singularity on Thursday, February 4, 2010 at 16:00 UTC. More information can be found in this thread.

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:16:00 - [2]
 

Nice to see some progress.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:19:00 - [3]
 

I think it's great to see that it is being worked on. Cool

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:27:00 - [4]
 

Smile

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:27:00 - [5]
 

LSC4-P seems to have a very friendly population, even if their name choices could be a bit more inspired.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:34:00 - [6]
 

Great blog, would read again.

Ulair Memmet
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:41:00 - [7]
 

Cya on SISI

Altaree
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:42:00 - [8]
 

Thanks for posting this. It is nice to hear something after all of this time. Please remember that timely information (when was dominion released?) keeps people calm. All we needed was a post with some sketchy details a month or two ago to keep us going...

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:54:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Aineko Macx on 04/02/2010 13:01:21
How the grid load issue was described differs in two points of how I have experienced it:
1) The new nebula did load
2) There was no right click menu at all (right clicking didn't produce any menu)

Finally, while this isn't the focus of this blog, the client performance did get worse with Dominion. It seems that any object that appears or is removed from your grid/overview takes longer to do so (hangs for longer time). This, and fps went down for large fleets (without even shooting).

And to the customer support comment:
No one I know was petitioning for changing the outcome of battles (i.e. gained or lost sov), just for the reimbursement of ships lost to an obvious problem on CCPs side, which has now finally been officially admitted.

Ga'len
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.02.04 12:58:00 - [10]
 

On Jan 28th, we had a 1600 person fleet fight on Tranquility which our team monitored closely, keeping the node alive using methods that make our system admins faint. This was one of the biggest, if not the biggest, fleet fight ever in EVE (at least where the node survived the ordeal). This event allowed us to identify what was causing some of these glitches and deploy fixes live.

So, finally after many of us have been literally screaming for you to actually monitor a live fleet fight on the production server because that's where the problem was occurring, you actually listened to us.

What happened? You learned something useful, you were able to address issue as they occurred and keep the node up.

Well done, the fleet fight in D-GTMI was something to behold.

In the future, when your stakeholders are first asking, next demanding and then screaming at you to do something, perhaps you will listen to them next time.

We actually DO know what we are talking about, we ARE versed in the technical intricacies of complex client/server applications and database clustering and we ARE ALWAYS willing to help.

Better late than never CCP.

I look forward to working with you in the future.


jamaicababy
Posted - 2010.02.04 13:01:00 - [11]
 

i would like to ask something about:

If you are waiting for the grid to load the worst thing you can do is click buttons on the interface or chat in local

does that mean if I chat in local or if OTHERS, who already loaded the grid, chat in local it becomes worst?

b/c if so (the last one) players already in grid can abuse this mechnanic to generate more "grid lag" and those who want to jump in cannot load the grid ... if this comes true, i finally understand why allainces like mh or gs are smacking the local the day long

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.04 13:10:00 - [12]
 

I won't complain about lag (used to it) but ships appearing on grid (as wittnessed by both our covert ops AND an enemy spy who graced us with his gloating on Vent) AFTER BEING LOGGED OUT FOR AN HOUR simply shouldn't happen.

If I don't load the grid and am dead when finally catching up, tough luck, we are all used to that. If I am not even in game for over an hour when appearing (after having given up trying to load the grid for 30-40 minutes with 1600 in local) it's a freaking BUG!

Or maybe just do what you said you'd do like years ago and give people incentives to NOT cramp as many people as possible into a single system.

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.02.04 13:35:00 - [13]
 

How is the development of those mini-eveclients going ccp? As an ex-Venus Blue programmer I got a special intrest in those :)

Opus Dai
Posted - 2010.02.04 13:40:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Opus Dai on 04/02/2010 13:42:18
I actually preferred it when CCP denied the problem existed.

Admitting it's their fault and then not reimbursing adds insult to injury.


Edit:- Also is keeping the node alive when it's trying to die fair in any way when there are ships that logged hours ago out in space being shot thanks to this bug? The results so far when this has happened have been tremendously one-sided so this just makes it even worse for those who are destined to lose.


Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.02.04 13:44:00 - [15]
 

I'm just going to repeat my earlier statement that if getting onto Sisi with a compatible client wasn't such a convoluted pain in the ass you might be able to stress test much more easily in future. If you managed to get 400, then great, but I was in an earlier test where about 150 people showed up and I doubt you got much in the way of useful data out of that.

A side issue to this is that people involved in alliance warfare are understandably reluctant to jump over to Sisi for lag tests in large numbers for fear that their opponents will take advantage of their absence on Tranquility. It may be wiser to schedule Sisi tests for extended downtimes like patch days, or in extreme cases like recently it might even be worthwhile to give a few days notice that you'll extend a regular downtime by an hour or so and run a stress test during that.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:06:00 - [16]
 

long story short

u cant fix lag in systems with over 1000 people in it

CCP keeping the server/node alive only helps the people who are already in the system or on grid.

It basically helps the attacker ( who has already been blowing up your crap ) and screws the defender who trys to arrive and stop the attacker.

so no one in their right mind would bother fighting in these systems, thank you for breaking large fleet fights.

I can only see large alliances ONLY attacking, and playing station ping pong by taking the other guys stuff. Why bother trying to defend?

Tyrael Primus
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:10:00 - [17]
 

Hi, I lost my dreadnought 40 minutes after I logged out. Will my game logs prove this? I don't understand why it is fair that I lose 1 billion isk and my allies lose trillions after they log off without aggression timer. Isn't this a bug?

Opus Dai
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tyrael Primus
Hi, I lost my dreadnought 40 minutes after I logged out. Will my game logs prove this? I don't understand why it is fair that I lose 1 billion isk and my allies lose trillions after they log off without aggression timer. Isn't this a bug?


No you won't. Previously some GMs did reimburse some lost caps, they have since been punished for breaking their own rules, which is to not reimburse during fleet fights under any circumstances except when SirMolle lost his Titan to a bug but that was different.

As I'm sure you agree this is the fairest way to do it, in the following example if you lose:
7 Titans
14 Supercarriers
109 Dreadnoughts
73 Carriers
321 Battleships
100 assorted frigs and cruisers

and your enemies lose:

1 Battleship
3 rifters

Then you'll be pleased to know that your enemies won't get their ships back either. I'm sure you agree entirely that this is by far the best way to deal with this particular bug and shows CCPs evenhanded approach. Sorry for you inconvience, sure you'll recover etc...

They won't use timestamps anyway as they don't trust them during high lag and server stress.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Opus Dai


No you won't. Previously some GMs did reimburse some lost caps, they have since been punished for breaking their own rules, which is to not reimburse during fleet fights under any circumstances except when SirMolle lost his Titan to a bug but that was different.

As I'm sure you agree this is the fairest way to do it, in the following example if you lose:
7 Titans
14 Supercarriers
109 Dreadnoughts
73 Carriers
321 Battleships
100 assorted frigs and cruisers

and your enemies lose:

1 Battleship
3 rifters

Then you'll be pleased to know that your enemies won't get their ships back either. I'm sure you agree entirely that this is by far the best way to deal with this particular bug and shows CCPs evenhanded approach. Sorry for you inconvience, sure you'll recover etc...

They won't use timestamps anyway as they don't trust them during high lag and server stress.


Providence lost almost all of this ( no titans or MOMS's ) in our fight in d-g because we could load grid for 45 min, then logged and our entire cap fleet appeared 2 hours later on grid ( when the server caught up ) and died.

how is this fair CCP?

Irongut
Sex Money Guns
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:41:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight

Providence lost almost all of this ( no titans or MOMS's ) in our fight in d-g because we could load grid for 45 min, then logged and our entire cap fleet appeared 2 hours later on grid ( when the server caught up ) and died.



Providence lost in D-G when your FC called for your caps to jump out of the laggy system and then back in a short while later. You should either have stayed in system or stayed out once you had jumped. Those 2 stupid decisions are what cost you your caps.

Thanks for the devblog CCP Atlas. Was good to read what you were up to in D-G while we were fighting. Next time try not to pop one of our bubbles please. ;)

Opus Dai
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Irongut

Providence lost in D-G when your FC called for your caps to jump out of the laggy system and then back in a short while later. You should either have stayed in system or stayed out once you had jumped. Those 2 stupid decisions are what cost you your caps.



I have to admit, reading AAA spin it as their skill not a game breaking bug that handed them a turkey shoot is exceedingly funny

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:54:00 - [22]
 

I loved the local channel comments in the picture. Really made me smile.

"I'm confident that CCP will fix the problem" etc Laughing

Confirming Eve players post comments similar to this when lag occurs. I've found everyone gets behind CCP at such times and is all pulling for you to resolve the issues with the minimum of discomfort.

Just curious, how much of the lag is down to fleet bonuses, loot logging, watch lists etc? Would eve work better in such fights without these?
It might be radicle (and sad) but what about removing these during big fights - afterall it should affect all sides pretty equally?

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.04 14:59:00 - [23]
 

Well, if the node had died (thank you for artificially keeping it alive so we could be lagged out longer and loose ships you then won't reimburse. Being guinea pigs in a live environment without notice is surely what we play and pay for) there might have been a chance to get an actual fight as a percentage of people from *both* sides would have loaded the grid.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would have changed the outcome of D-G falling or us loosing lots of ships, but there might have been an actual fight. The way it went there wasn't a 'fight' unless you call someone shooting a brigade of blidfolded and handcuffed people who are actually passed out (logged out for > 1h) on top a 'fight', too. Thanks for keeping the handcuffs active though, CCP Dev in system.

I am really thankfull to hear that you got some data out of it. Maybe you can do these tests on SiSi next time or tell your customer support to have a better look at reimbursement requests on nodes you are actively *cking with.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:06:00 - [24]
 

Since now you know (or are getting close to knowing) what caused the nodes to show reduced performance compared to Apocrypha will you be able to prevent this and/or similar things from happening in future releases?

Will this knowledge have any long-term effect in preventing new lag instead of fighting lag after it becomes evident?

Dragonia Redtail
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:14:00 - [25]
 

Thank you for writing something about this issue. A lot of us play this game more often than they play any other game and it is nice to see that you are working on it.

(Oh, and thanks for letting us kknow where the monitoring tool is hidden so we can use it to see wether we need to wait some more, or just got to bed before grid loads ;) )

Carai an'Caldazar
Amarr
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:30:00 - [26]
 

Thank you for the response and keeping us in the loop. I remember fleet fights earlier on in my EVE career where lag manifested itself in 200vs200 battles, and anything larger than 700 in local might crash the node.

Thank you for your efforts in trying to fix Dominion. I look forward to the post-fix universe Twisted Evil

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:39:00 - [27]
 

what problem?

oh right, I don't blob

Togae Alus
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:41:00 - [28]
 

all i have to say is welcome to eve where the strength of the fleet is not as important as the strength of the server

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:46:00 - [29]
 

Thanks CCP, for acknowledging that the players are causing issues with lag by jamming so many players in a system it's unplayable for one side. Server code will be updated and give better performance after you're done, but it's really not going to help in the long run. Here pretty soon we'll see our first 2,000+ man fleet fight and the lag will return.

Too bad you don't have a time machine so you could go forward about 50 years and come back with a quantum computer that could handle millions of people on the server at the same time.

I just have one question. Why is the netcode attached to the graphics code (low FPS = more lag)? Unless I read it wrong.

Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.04 15:50:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Aralis on 04/02/2010 15:51:24
Ah so our disaster there didn't just happen. CCP engineers were busily working to make it happen. That's nice to know.

I know it's against CCPs policy to admit mistakes or misjudgements but isn't it about time to realise that Dominion is ruining the game. It took everything that was wrong with Eve and added more of it.

It would be easy, more fun, and far more sensible to design a system that didn't encourage the biggest fleets possible.

You are not "aware of the problem" - the main problem is lousy game design. The fact that your servers physically can't cope is detail. As others have pointed out with this game design if the servers were better there would just be more people in there to break them.


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