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blankseplocked All you need to know about moon reactions at a glance (+XLS v4d)
 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 13:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2010 02:15:06
_

WARNING !!!

You can only react and/or moonmine in systems with a displayed sec of 0.3 or lower, you can't do either in 0.4 or above.

_

Chain overview image: Linkage (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/104/reactions.gif)
For the lazy person that just wants it all calculated for him directly, a miracle cure XLS (UPDATED JUNE 2010):
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1006/EVE_reactions_v4d.zip Linkage

A sample snapshot from the old XLS...
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1576/akitareactionsv4.gif (Linkage)

Yes, it does tell you exactly how much profit each reaction makes, and for how much you should sell your stuff to get a certain profit.
REACTION CALCULATIONS EASY FOR EVERYBODY !
___

SETTING UP A REACTION AND OPERATING COSTS

Reactor inputs can be either from a moon harvesting array, a silo or a coupling array.
Reactor outputs can be either into a coupling array or a silo.
Materials can "go through" any number of coupling arrays or silos until they reach their final destination, when that fills the previous recipient fills and so on until all are full.


Simple reactions are quite simple : 100 of each moon material goes in the reactor, 200 processed material comes out each hour.
At a minimum, you only need a medium control tower to run a simple reaction.
A Gallente-based medium tower should be best for this due to the silo size bonus and spare CPU for two coupling arrays (in case you're importing one moon mineral and mining the other locally and you don't want to risk losing any reactor cycles accidentally while doing the routine ops.
The fuel cost should be around 120k-140k ISK/hour on a minimal configuration non-faction tower in space without sov at today's fuel prices, a bit moremore if you online defences or whatnot else.
Adjust for fuel bonuses as necessary.
Calculating simple reaction profits don't really need much help.

Complex reactions are a bit more complicated, they can take between 2 to 4 processed material types depending on reaction, 100 of each every hour (i.e. HALF of the hourly output of a simple reaction) and output a different amount of advanced materials each hour, depending on reaction.
At a minimum, you only need a "large" control tower to run a complex reaction.
A Gallente-based "large" tower should be best for this due to the silo size bonus and enough CPU for a full set of silos and coupling arrays even for the reactions with 4 inputs (and even more CPU for other stuff on complex-3 and complex-2 reactions).
The fuel cost in this case should be around 240k-280k ISK/hour on a minimal configuration non-faction tower in space without sov at today's fuel prices, a bit moremore if you online defences or whatnot else - basically double that of a simple reaction.
Adjust for fuel bonuses as necessary.


Some people (mostly for complex-2 but also sometimes for complex-3 reactions) prefer to run an EXTREMELY tight to manage combination of Caldari large towers with one simple and one complex reaction running in tandem, setups that have absolutely no CPU-slack at all above the bare minimum needed gear, and production might occasionally shut down while you empty/refill silos if you're not timing it right.
You save 120-140k ISK/hour overall (~20 mil/week) for doing that on every such tower compared to the lazy Gallente setup, but you need to keep checking your tower VERY often and you're also likely to accidentally give up on cycles of production due to refills/unloads.
Bottom line, not really worth it IMO, way too much hassle for my taste... but for you it might be different.


For more explanations and typical chain setups, see posts further below.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.02.03 13:46:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 03/02/2010 13:45:44
The pic is very nice, but imho the definitive uber tutorial would be some flow chart about setting up the 2 kinds of reactions and calculating costs given a rough fuel x month usage. Seeing how many react for a loss, I think I am not guessing wrong about this need.

LordInvisible
Gallente
Nova Ardour
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:04:00 - [3]
 

wow, awesome image:D

n1 akita!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:21:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 15:28:49


______

UPDATE
______


Linkage (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/104/reactions.gif)

WHAT THE TABLE IS GOOD FOR (clarified in more detail)



A. Pick an advanced material (for instance, ferrogel)

B. Write down the corresponding moon minerals (in case of ferrogel : dyspro, 2x prom, hafn, plat, chrom, cadm, vanad) and count the total number of mineral inputs (not 7 as it looks like, there are 7 types of minerals, but you will count 8 inputs, since you have 2x prom from two separate processed materials)

C. Sum up the values of all individual minerals (let's pick a semi-arbitrary 40k 60k ISK total as sum of one unit of each of those above, except promethium whose value we add TWICE since you see it twice in there) and divide it by the number under "1/? of a moon mineral" (here, 8) and you get the RAW MATERIAL cost of the advanced material (60k/8= 7500 ISK)

D. Divide the number you got at point B by 4 (one simple reaction feeds 2 complex reactors, med towers eat up half fuel of large towers), then add 1 (the large tower for the complex reaction), then multiply by large fuel hourly cost, then divide by the number listed as "portion size" (in case of ferrogel, 400).
B:8 -> 8/4=2,+1=3,*250k280k=840k,/400=2100 and you get the FUEL COST of one unit of the advanced material (2100 ISK in this case).

E. Add up C and D and you get the TOTAL MINIMUM COST of one unit (7500+2100= 9600 ISK)
Never, ever sell any of your stuff anywhere close to the value you get at point E.

F. DECIDE how much profit you expect to get from YOUR ENTIRE REACTION CHAIN.
In this particular case, you had to set up 4 simple reactions feeding 2 identical complex reactions (you ALWAYS feed two twin complex reactions in case you do your own simple reactions, and it's usually a good idea to always run your simple reactions because processed material market volumes are never steady).
So that's a minimum of 4 large POSes (or 4 mediums and 2 large), so let's say you want to get around 1 bil ISK/week out of this entire ordeal.

G. Your final output per month is always 2(reactors)*24(hours)*7(days)*PORTIONSIZE.
In the case of a full ferrogel chain, that's 2*24*7*400=134400 units/week.

H. Multiply the number of units/week from G (134.4k) by cost per unit from E (9.6k ISK) to get your weekly costs (direct costs + opportunity costs), then add our desired weekly profit from point F (1 bil) to get the raw revenue we are targeting.
In our case here, we get a grand total of 2,290,240,000 ISK.

I. Figure out your broker fees and sales taxes (say around 0.8% and 0.6%, respectively, from L4 skills and no standings, so 1.4% total).
Divide that figure you got at point H by 100%-totaltax[%] to get your total weekly sales level.
Divide that by figure at point G (your units/week production) to get unit sales price.

In our case, 2,290,240,000 ISK / 0.986 = (approx.) 2,322,758,620 ISK total targeted sales volume.
2,322,758,620 ISK / 134400 units = (aprox) 17282.43 ISK/unit sales price.

THIS IS THE PRICE YOU SHOULD BE SELLING YOUR FINISHED PRODUCT FOR
IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THAT PARTICULAR PROFIT LEVEL
FROM ALL YOUR TROUBLE SETTING UP ALL THE REACTIONS.


Yup, and that's how 7.5k worth of raw minerals turns after expenses and profit into 17.3k worth of product.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.02.03 15:35:00 - [5]
 

Now, this is an Akita T's grade guide, worth being in your sig links.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:01:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 16:18:26

___

So, RECAP :

A. Pick an advanced material
B. Write down the corresponding moon minerals and count the total number of mineral inputs
C. Sum up the values of all individual minerals and divide it by the number under "1/? of a moon mineral" and you get the RAW MATERIAL cost of the advanced material
D. Divide the number you got at point B by 4, then add 1, then multiply by large fuel hourly cost, then divide by the number listed as "portion size" and you get the FUEL COST of one unit of the advanced material
E. Add up C and D and you get the TOTAL MINIMUM COST of one unit
F. DECIDE how much profit you expect to get from YOUR ENTIRE REACTION CHAIN. You need 2 large POS + 2/3/4 med POSes (or 1/2 of that in large POSes).
G. Your final output per month is always 2(reactors)*24(hours)*7(days)*PORTIONSIZE
H. Multiply the number of units/week from G by cost per unit from E to get your weekly costs, then add our desired weekly profit from point F to get the raw revenue we are targeting.
I. Figure out your broker fees and sales taxes. Divide that figure you got at point H by 100%-totaltax[%] to get your total weekly sales level. Divide that by figure at point G (your units/week production) to get unit sales price.
THIS IS THE PRICE YOU SHOULD BE SELLING YOUR FINISHED PRODUCT FOR TO GET THE DESIRED PROFIT

____


More examples, you say ?

A. Fullerides
B. 4 -> tech, plat, silicates, hydrocarbs
C. Around 25k ISK / 60 = 417 ISK raw material cost
D. B=4, /4=1, +1=2, *280k=560k, /3000= 187 ISK fuel costs
E. 417+187 = 604 ISK minimal fulleride unit cost at zero profit
F. 3 large POSes could do it all so I guess 700 mil/week should be reasonably good (1bil/mo/tower)
G. 2*24*7*3000= 1,008,000 units/week
H. 1008000*604+700000000= 1,308,832,000 ISK weekly income target
I. Say you sell'em all wholesale with a direct personal contract so no fees for you -> 1308832000/1008000 = 1298.44 ISK / unit


Even more examples ?

A. Nanotransistors
B. 6 -> neod, tech, merc, plat, evap, atmgas
C. around 40k / 30 = 1333 ISK raw material cost
D. B=6, /4=1.5, +1=2.5, *280k=700k, /1500= 467 ISK fuel cost
E. 1333+467 = 1800 ISK minimal nanotransistors cost at zero profit
F. 3 large POSes and one med, say 1 bil/week grand total profit
G. 2*24*7*1500= 504,000 units/week
H. 504000*1800+1000000000 = 1,907,200,000 ISK weekly income target
I. Assume 1% total tax rate, 1907200000/0.99=1,926,464,646, /504000 = 3822.35 ISK / unit


There you go.
Of course, anything in between minimal cost and desired sales price corresponds to less than desired profit, but still some.
Just remember, try to always stay as far away from the "minimal price" as possible, and avoid going below it like the plague.[/b]

Vins Chicago
Gallente
Regent Laboratories
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:14:00 - [7]
 

Quality. Nothing but quality. Nicely done, Akita!

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:19:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/02/2010 16:20:05
Thread should be renamed with "moon" before reactions

THERE IS A WORLD BEYOND TECH 2 AKITA. Cool

ps: as usual, good explanations and numbers to support...

and on a somewhat relevant note, does your boss know you do this instead of CADD (or whatever you are supposed to be doing at work Wink)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:26:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 19/03/2010 15:00:26
___

Added "moon" in thread title.

As for the AutoCAD thing... I don't really have a boss Twisted Evil
I'm a sort of "freelance consultant" working almost exclusively from home for whomever needs me on some projects at the moment.
If anybody kicks me in the behind it's myself for getting too close to deadlines and having to "do overtime" to make it or face penalties of a financial nature.
___

Originally by: Retail Therapy
Wondering if you can clarify one point for me please.[...]

Yes, all simple reactions yield enough output for 2 complex reactions.
All the setups need a grand total of X simple reaction ("medium") reactors (2, 3 or 4 depending on advanced reaction type) and 2 complex reaction reactors if you want to do it all start-to-finish.


A "medium" reactor can only fit on a medium tower (3000 tf total minimum, so not on an Amarr medium unless you downgrade at lest one silo to a coupling array, which is crazy if you ask me).
A "regular" reactor can only fit on a large tower (4500/5000/5500 tf total depending on number of inputs, 2/3/4), so they fit on any tower, since even the Amarr one has enough CPU.
You can't put two simple reactions on an Amarr tower however, since you need 6000 but you only get 5500 (and again, downgrading from silo to coupling array anyway is madness).

With separate simple reaction and complex reaction towers, you just move all output from the simple reactor towers split evenly to both of the complex reactors, and pick up the complex reactions.
For a 2-way complex reaction, you need either 2 medium (any except Amarr) and 2 large (any), or 3 large towers (one of them not Amarr).
For a 3-way complex reaction, you need either 3 medium (any except Amarr) and 2 large (any), or 1 medium (any except Amarr) and 3 large towers (one of them not Amarr).
For a 4-way complex reaction, you need either 4 medium (any except Amarr) and 2 large (any), or 4 large towers (two of them not Amarr).
You want Gallente towers though, because they offer the largest silo expansion bonus, and hence you have to visit them least often.

A mix of "medium"+"regular" reactors (plus a silo in-between the med and regular) takes 7000/7500/8000 tf (for 2/3/4 inputs) - so for just 2 or 3 inputs, you can pull it off with Caldari towers, but you can't do that with a 4-way reaction unless (again, very, very bad idea) downgrade at least two of the silos to coupling arrays. You could pull it off with Gallente or even Minnie towers for 3 or 2 way complex reactions if you replace some silos with coupling arrays, but again, that kind of defeats the purpose. So, really, only even attempt to do it for 2 or 3-way reactions, and you'll have to visit them twice as often as the "separated" Gallente versions described in the paragraphs above.

This only saves on space for two simple reactions, so the above story becomes:
* 2-way reaction - 2 large Caldari
* 3-way reaction - 2 large Caldari and 1 medium anything except Amarr
* 4-way reaction - not recommendable

You'll have to periodically shut down the silo linking the medium and the regular reactors (fills at half of normal speed since half is directly eaten up by the complex reaction) and move it to the other tower's input silos.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.02.03 16:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 16:32:02

Added "moon" in thread title.

As for the AutoCAD thing... I don't really have a boss Twisted Evil
I'm a sort of "freelance consultant" working almost exclusively from home for whomever needs me on some projects at the moment.
If anybody kicks me in the behind it's myself for getting too close to deadlines and having to "do overtime" to make it or face penalties of a financial nature.



ever used Revit?...not sure what you do with AutoCAD exactly but Revit = the future

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 17:49:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 18:26:30
__

!!! NEW !!!
For the lazy person that just wants it all calculated for him directly, a miracle cure XLS:
Linkage (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1002/EVE_reactions_v3.zip)

A sample snapshot from this XLS...
Linkage (http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8951/akitatreactionsv3.gif)

Yes, it does tell you exactly how much profit each reaction makes, and for how much you should sell your stuff to get a certain profit.
REACTION CALCULATIONS EASY FOR EVERYBODY !
Twisted Evil

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 18:32:00 - [12]
 

Corrected minor omission in v2, v3 up and accurate.
Heh.

QuelAlt
Posted - 2010.02.03 19:01:00 - [13]
 

I was going to be mad at you for crashing the market for my goods, but it seems to me that this spreadsheet isn't very useful. If you're making nanotransistors, for example, why would you react your own sulfuric acid? Last I checked, you saved about 150k/hour by making it yourself vs buying it from Jita, which is really a waste of 1/2 a POS.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.03 19:46:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 19:49:17
Originally by: QuelAlt
for example, why would you react your own sulfuric acid?

Stability in supply.
The processed material market is usually quite thin, randomly either trailing or leading the complex reaction market with regards to moon mineral prices.
Volumes are occasionally too volatile to continuously rely on it to supply you with the appropriate quantities at the right times for a good enough price.

Of course, if you wish to optimize all your reactions to the max, you could constantly shunt simple reaction POSes on or off depending on however the simple reaction market blows, or you could keep large stockpiles bought when they were cheap or whatnot.
It's simply more convenient (and far less stressful) to run the entire chain locally with minimal imports and exports on top of the absolutely necessary.

QuelAlt
Posted - 2010.02.03 20:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 19:49:17
Originally by: QuelAlt
for example, why would you react your own sulfuric acid?

Stability in supply.
The processed material market is usually quite thin, randomly either trailing or leading the complex reaction market with regards to moon mineral prices.
Volumes are occasionally too volatile to continuously rely on it to supply you with the appropriate quantities at the right times for a good enough price.

Of course, if you wish to optimize all your reactions to the max, you could constantly shunt simple reaction POSes on or off depending on however the simple reaction market blows, or you could keep large stockpiles bought when they were cheap or whatnot.
It's simply more convenient (and far less stressful) to run the entire chain locally with minimal imports and exports on top of the absolutely necessary.



I suppose that makes sense. I operate in w-space, so I have to ship everything in anyway, which means that I have more flexibility (and less stability).

Joardth
Posted - 2010.02.03 20:17:00 - [16]
 

There goes the Nanotransistors market... I'm sure T2 builders are happy when the prices of crash. I guess this *is* one way to try and stimulate the Technetium market - of course it comes a bit late, Nanotransistor prices have already been crashing hard (partially due to Tech price going down, partially due to oversupply), so unless there is a sudden spike in T2 production volumes, I doubt this helps much.

Charlie Crocodile
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.02.03 21:14:00 - [17]
 

You might want to delete all the document metadata!

Onyx Mdooku
Posted - 2010.02.04 09:02:00 - [18]
 

I got part way through doing my own version of this spreadsheet before going 'meh'. So thankyou Akita for making the effort that I couldn't be arsed to make myself :)

Kalisis
Caldari
United Industries LTD.
Posted - 2010.02.04 16:44:00 - [19]
 

Nice Sheet. I'd just got done doing a sheet of my own for this. One error I think you have is the unit fuel cost. On your sheet its twice what it should be. Other than that yours is a bit cleaner than mine. Im gonna have to go put colors in mine now. Very Happy

Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2010.02.04 17:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 03/02/2010 18:26:56
_
Some people prefer to run an EXTREMELY tight to manage combination of Caldari large towers with one simple and one complex reaction running in tandem, but that only works for complex reactions that only need two processed materials and has absolutely no room for any coupling arrays at all, so production will occasionally shut down while you empty/refill silos.
You save 120-140k ISK/hour overall for doing that, but you need to keep checking your tower VERY often and you're also giving up on at least one cycle of production on every refill/unload cycle. Bottom line, not really worth it.




Have to disagree there.
Sure you have a more limited selection of reactions you can run but you only have two towers to manage rather than three so you have 33% less work. Less fuel to haul around, less towers to defend if something happens and so on. You also have less capital outlay for it and you can get up and running faster.
So if it is worth it or not depends on how you value time and how much capital you have available to put it up.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.04 17:14:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 04/02/2010 17:20:59

Well, yeah, if you can be bothered to come online and around quite frequently to keep rotating all needed materials into their proper silos and you're careful to time everything out of the tower "tick", then sure, why not, it's a bit over 20 mil/week extra saved compared to the others for each tower, and a tad bit less fuel to haul. But then again, you could as well just operate twice as many towers instead of visiting the ones you have twice as often, and be a bit more careless with your offlining/onlining timing.
Yeah, I guess it's a matter of preference, but I sure as heck know what I'd always pick Twisted Evil
Originally by: Kalisis
One error I think you have is the unit fuel cost. On your sheet its twice what it should be.

Duuh, you're right. I cut some corners and simplified the fuel cost formula but forgot to divide by the two that corresponds to the "twin" production lines.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.04 17:42:00 - [22]
 

Updated, v4:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1002/EVE_reactions_v4.zip Linkage
New snapshot (also rounded off a few things):
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1576/akitareactionsv4.gif (Linkage)

QuelAlt
Posted - 2010.02.05 05:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Akita T



Some people prefer to run an EXTREMELY tight to manage combination of Caldari large towers with one simple and one complex reaction running in tandem, but that only works for complex reactions that only need two processed materials and has absolutely no room for any coupling arrays at all, so production will occasionally shut down while you empty/refill silos.
You save 120-140k ISK/hour overall for doing that, but you need to keep checking your tower VERY often and you're also giving up on at least one cycle of production on every refill/unload cycle.
Bottom line, not really worth it IMO, but for you it might be different.




Didn't notice this before (thanks for mentioning it, guy above me), but fwiw you can fit one simple reactor, one complex reactor, and six silos, which enables complex reactions with 3 intermediates (yes your simple reactor fills its output silo twice as fast as it gets emptied, but that silo fills much more slowly than your complex product silo anyway, so it's not a terrible chore to empty it out).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.05 10:42:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 05/02/2010 10:53:01

Hmm, true, you could run a complex-3 reaction that way with 2 large + 1 med tower instead of 3 large + 1 med towers... just barely.
Tell me how many people you can find that will want to keep running such setups for a longer period of time though without completely burning out.

P.S. Reformulated OP to reflect these comments.

QuelAlt
Posted - 2010.02.05 16:58:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 05/02/2010 10:53:01

Hmm, true, you could run a complex-3 reaction that way with 2 large + 1 med tower instead of 3 large + 1 med towers... just barely.
Tell me how many people you can find that will want to keep running such setups for a longer period of time though without completely burning out.

P.S. Reformulated OP to reflect these comments.



Oh, I doubt you'll find any. I certainly don't plan on it.

Tiberizzle
Posted - 2010.02.05 20:18:00 - [26]
 

Thread is obvious attempt to push Technetium demand up after bottleneck assumption turned out to be completely ******ed. Jump into the reaction markets now to get burned like the lemmings that followed Akita into Technetium!1 Laughing

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.05 21:19:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tiberizzle
Thread is obvious attempt to push Technetium demand up

Is that supposed to be sarcastic ? Because I can't really tell...

Ferrogel and Hypersynaptic Fibers (which have nothing to do with Technetium) have higher profits according to the sheet...
Twisted Evil
Fullerides are only in 3rd place profit-wise (Technetium used there), then come Phenolic Composites and Fermionic Condensates (no Technetium) and Nanotransistors (tech again) are only in the 6th place (our of 11 total reactions).
So, ehm, take it as you will.

Tiberizzle
Posted - 2010.02.06 00:04:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Tiberizzle on 06/02/2010 00:15:03
Yes, its saracsm. I'm sure you fudged through a few reaction profit numbers a couple months late with enough errors in tower configurations, fuel costs to indicate that you may have never actually run a reaction out of the goodness of your heart... while sitting on massive stockpiles dwindling in value because your bottleneck has been spotted in the reaction market. What ulterior motive could you possibly have?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.06 01:42:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 06/02/2010 01:51:15

Wow, is that double sarcasm ? Or is that a statement of previous sarcasm followed by actual simple sarcasm ?

Care to point out any errors in the calculations or the so-called holes in the explanations provided in the thread or anything else that would be relevant ?
One error WAS spotted by somebody and immediately corrected (it affected everything in a similar fashion anyway).
It's not like any fields in the XLS would be locked/hidden or anything, nor are the calculations all that complicated either, so you don't get any excuse to be vague about it.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.02.06 13:25:00 - [30]
 

Is alchemy worth bothering with atm? Razz


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