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CCP Tanis

Posted - 2010.02.01 18:09:00 - [1]
 

Howdy Folks,

[Edit: We now have a few potential fixes for the fleet/jumping issues which we will be testing during this test event]

Our test last week yielded some really great data, but not enough to fully isolate the issue. Since we got such great results last time, we're running another test this week to further drill into the problem in hopes of getting a fix out as soon as possible. This test is run on Singularity so that we can avoid having to bog down TQ with all the debugging that we need to run during this test; basically, we don't want to make the problem any worse than it already is.

The next test will be held Thursday, February 4 at 4pm UTC. They are expected to last for about 1 hour. We need at least 200 pilots, preferably 400+… the more people who show up, the better.
_________________________________
Test schedule:

Thursday [February 4] @ 16:00 GMT
_________________________________

How to connect to Singularity for this test:

  • Make a copy of the current Tranquility (TQ) client

  • Visit the Sisi patch page.

  • Patch the copied client to the Singularity build

  • Create a shortcut to eve.exe, edit the properties of the shortcut by adding the following to the "target" box: " /server:singularity" (note the space)

  • Login to the singularity test server

  • Join the in-game channel "MassTesting"

  • Listen for instructions and ask questions in-channel


What exactly is being tested?

Session changes:

  • We will move everyone to FD-MLJ, where this test will begin.

  • We will NOT be using fleets this time around as fleets are outside the scope of what we're testing for.

  • Once we're reached the target number of players, we will have everyone form up and jump en-masse into a target system, which is on a special node.

  • We will then return to FD-MLJ and repeat this process by jumping into yet another system, which is on another specially configured node.

  • Because we have a few potential fixes for the issue, we will be repeating the same jump tests across several other systems which have the new fixes loaded on them so we can see how well our fixes work.

  • We have added special debugging code to the test server to help us isolate problems.



What else should I know?

  • Try running logServer, read here if you're not sure how.

  • You will want to bring a fleet-setup BS or smaller.

  • You should pay attention to your FPS (use ctrl+f to view in-game)

  • Anyone able to use multiple accounts is strongly encouraged to bring your alts!

  • CCP staff and ISD will be on hand prior to the test to help move players to the starting location



c0olGuY77
The Space BorderLine
War and Pestilence
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:14:00 - [2]
 

do we actually get to shoot each other this time? from what i read its only jumping from one system to another :)

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:16:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Abrazzar on 01/02/2010 18:16:30
Originally by: c0olGuY77
do we actually get to shoot each other this time? from what i read its only jumping from one system to another :)

May be interesting to stage a battle on one side and have 'reinforcements' jump in. It'll add combat processing to the lag sources.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:23:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: c0olGuY77
do we actually get to shoot each other this time? from what i read its only jumping from one system to another :)

May be interesting to stage a battle on one side and have 'reinforcements' jump in. It'll add combat processing to the lag sources.
Tests are not setup like normal combat as they are looking for specific data to narrow down the cause of the problem. So it looks like they have narrowed it down to something in the session change code so thats what they will need you to do: Jump around and let the debugger proggys have something to digest. If you want to pew pew go to one of the ffa and mosh around.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:30:00 - [5]
 

i see... graphics cards are still considered a possible culprit..?

CCP Tanis

Posted - 2010.02.01 18:35:00 - [6]
 

This testing is very focused on just a few things. This is because we are trying to narrow in on the source of the current issues on TQ and the more we eliminate "noise" from other things, the better our results will be. Basically, we are only testing a few key things so that we can get to the source of the problem as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, during the last test we'd lagged out the server so bad that we simply couldn't do a fleet v fleet battle. This time around, server-willing, we will try to do a nice battle or at least an uber Free For All after we've finished the test.

We are in the final planning stages for getting regularly scheduled mass-tests put together which will touch on a broad spectrum of scenarios and actions, but those tests will be more generic. I'll be putting out a dev blog in the near future with more details on this.


Khir
Rule of Five
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:40:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: CCP Tanis
I'll be putting out a dev blog in the near future with more details on this.


When this is all over I'd like to see a nice tech-heavy blog about this! Should make for a good read for the devs amongst the players ;)

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:43:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Khir
Originally by: CCP Tanis
I'll be putting out a dev blog in the near future with more details on this.


When this is all over I'd like to see a nice tech-heavy blog about this! Should make for a good read for the devs amongst the players ;)
/signed

A nice detailed blog over what the culprits were and how you zapped them would make for a very nice after action report given the current scope of the lag wars. ugh

Vossejongk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:52:00 - [9]
 

Anyone has a step by step guide on how to get logged in to singularity from scratch (so all I have is the Eve client installed with TQ, because the one CCP provides is not easy to understand (Make a copy of your current TQ client. Does that mean i have to do a new install in another folder and apply singularity patch, copy current folder and apply singularity patch.. ????)

silent uk
Amarr
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.02.01 18:53:00 - [10]
 

Begun the lag wars have, mmmm, mmm.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Vossejongk
Anyone has a step by step guide on how to get logged in to singularity from scratch (so all I have is the Eve client installed with TQ, because the one CCP provides is not easy to understand (Make a copy of your current TQ client. Does that mean i have to do a new install in another folder and apply singularity patch, copy current folder and apply singularity patch.. ????)


You don't need to install it again, just copy your eve folder - ie, make a C:\EVEsingularity folder and copy the contents of C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE into it, then apply the patch there.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: CCP Tanis

Unfortunately, during the last test we'd lagged out the server so bad that we simply couldn't do a fleet v fleet battle. This time around, server-willing, we will try to do a nice battle or at least an uber Free For All after we've finished the test.




ConfusedLaughing

That is actually great news. I've heard that many developers play the game, but it’s hard to know how many of them have experienced the worst forms of lag.

I imagine that many people in the company chalk up costumer complaints as an inevitable part of doing business, that the message boards only represent mal-contents with sour grapes and people who cancel subscriptions listing tech problems might have been losing interest in the game and just used that as a reason to make the leap out.

Many insiders might suspect that the lag is limited to extreme conditions.

If only a few critical people who make the resource allocation decisions feel that way, it would be enough.

Internal reports that “during the last test we'd lagged out the server so bad that we simply couldn't do a fleet v fleet battle”

might catch a little broader attention.

Reporting that it happened without people hardly shooting and less ships than often try to fight for space might put an exclamation point on it.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2010.02.01 19:53:00 - [13]
 

If you plan on doing this often, why not add some sort of scripted client? Those who want to help then leave their computer and the script client running. When you need to test something you upload scripts to the script client which then does everything needed without us users having to do anything more than downloading the client and leave the computer running.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:02:00 - [14]
 

Account <removed> has been disabled
Last Login: 2009.03.17 16:29
Number of Visits: 1900
reason: Account subscription expired!

I obviously have an active account, why can't I log-in to Singularity? (Yes I tried logging into Sisi using the same account info that I'm using to post this right now)

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
Account <removed> has been disabled
Last Login: 2009.03.17 16:29
Number of Visits: 1900
reason: Account subscription expired!

I obviously have an active account, why can't I log-in to Singularity? (Yes I tried logging into Sisi using the same account info that I'm using to post this right now)

You can find the instructions for that here.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:31:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Last Wolf
Account <removed> has been disabled
Last Login: 2009.03.17 16:29
Number of Visits: 1900
reason: Account subscription expired!

I obviously have an active account, why can't I log-in to Singularity? (Yes I tried logging into Sisi using the same account info that I'm using to post this right now)

You can find the instructions for that here.


Thanks! I would have thanked you sooner, but I had to wait 5 minutes. Rolling Eyes

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
If you plan on doing this often, why not add some sort of scripted client? Those who want to help then leave their computer and the script client running. When you need to test something you upload scripts to the script client which then does everything needed without us users having to do anything more than downloading the client and leave the computer running.
sly..Rolling Eyes

Alphonse Diago
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:38:00 - [18]
 

Uh....ccp has it ever crossed your minds to maybe,i dunno, reward people for showing up? Why don't you guys take down the names of all the participants and have a draw. Give out a few pirate ships or what not to them on tq. Just a thought.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2010.02.01 21:13:00 - [19]
 

great to see more testing and progress being made, cant join cause of work, but still great to see

Good luck with the testing

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2010.02.01 21:14:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Alphonse Diago
Uh....ccp has it ever crossed your minds to maybe,i dunno, reward people for showing up? Why don't you guys take down the names of all the participants and have a draw. Give out a few pirate ships or what not to them on tq. Just a thought.

Such events have been had in the past.

I recall one where people were rewarded for bug reports. But those rewards involved, for instance, all level 5 skills on sisi and things like that.

The CSM1 discussed this during our trip to Iceland. I recall that the problem was mostly that it was time-consuming and CCP couldn't give any reward that had *any* impact on TQ whatsoever.

But remember. It's a reward in itself to get lag fixed. It's a shared responsibility of the community to help fix an issue that affects a large amount of people.

Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2010.02.01 22:30:00 - [21]
 

Are the tests always going to be at time when large parts of the playerbase are at work? I appreciate that this is probably being done at the end of a working day for the guys at ccp's end, but 4pm??

If you want lots of people to take part, how about a time when they are most around? Ok so the nulsec guys will be busy dying in lag blobs on TQ at prime time but some of the rest of us might want to help out.

Just a thought. Of course if you are hitting the required numbers, I guess its serving the purpose.

Erdiere
Minmatar
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.02.01 23:23:00 - [22]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1257152&page=1#29

Great to see that CCP is listening their player base.

Lusulpher
Gallente
Posted - 2010.02.01 23:39:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Erdiere
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1257152&page=1#29

Great to see that CCP is listening their player base.


Yay. I missed it due to work, but I didn't see the announcement until that day, anyway.

I'm guessing enough people showed up to lag the node...What was that number, wait nevermind. That limit would likely be abused on TQ, instead of agreed to like the old Gentlemanly Duel.Laughing

Was the amount of players a disturbing amount[too few]? A reassuring that it was another issue?[graphics/render issue]

Vague info like that needs to be in the blog...the logs need to show something.

Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.02.02 00:31:00 - [24]
 

I would recommend testing cap ships cynoing in and out of systems too (not sure if this has been tested recently) because it seems most of the time when I cyno jump capital ships these days my client temporarily stops responding. I've also had a couple of corpmates who seem to suffer front constant disconnects while trying to jump ships around as well.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.02.02 00:34:00 - [25]
 

Too early.... Not too many people at least in the UK will be home from work by then (probably not the rest of at least western Europe either)....

With that time frame, you're mainly looking at either school kids (who doesn't have great enthusiasm for helping), students, unemployed, or people from between the GMT+3 and GMT+7 time zones.

Since your prime subscriber zone is Europe (afaik?), why not schedule things like this for 1900 GMT?

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.02.02 00:55:00 - [26]
 

While the dedication to figuring out what is wrong with absurdly large fleet battles is encouraging, the absolute lack of acknowledgment of the client's resource allocation problems is not. I don't know why CCP refuses to address this problem, but it's insulting regardless.

It's too bad you won't be using any of this energy to find out why you guys ****ed up _trinity.dll... Some of us actually like to play the damn game without crashing at warp or suffering with 6 FPS.

(inb4 post deleted)

FAKE EDIT: AND FIX THE GOD DAMNED FORUMS ALREADY!! ONE SHOULD NOT NEED TO CLICK REPLY THREE TIMES TO POST ONE, ONLY TO GET AN ERROR 500 WHEN SAID REPLY IS SUBMITTED!

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.02 04:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Khir
Originally by: CCP Tanis
I'll be putting out a dev blog in the near future with more details on this.


When this is all over I'd like to see a nice tech-heavy blog about this! Should make for a good read for the devs amongst the players ;)


the tech devblogs are the best Very Happy

I'd love to join in but I don't have like 6gb free to make a client copy Sad
what happend to the ~2gb client Mad

Tajel
Gallente
Lithuanians
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2010.02.02 05:50:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Too early.... Not too many people at least in the UK will be home from work by then (probably not the rest of at least western Europe either)....

With that time frame, you're mainly looking at either school kids (who doesn't have great enthusiasm for helping), students, unemployed, or people from between the GMT+3 and GMT+7 time zones.

Since your prime subscriber zone is Europe (afaik?), why not schedule things like this for 1900 GMT?



Well CCP Headquarters is Reykjavik, Iceland. so EU tz is "CCP prime". ugh

Ernest Borgnine
Posted - 2010.02.02 06:07:00 - [29]
 

It's not lag, it's a bug.

While people *think* they're lagging waiting to load, they are infact simply never going to load - Downtime will hit before they load system.

You can recreate the effect in high sec empire by setting a 50 jump autopilot route then minimising the client with other clients running. At some point the autopiloting character will jump into a system and will never load the system. Chat channels will load, overview will show but be blank and the pilots ship will not be visible on the client - though he'll be visible and targetable to everyone else, but completely unable to do anything other than relog. Luckily in high-sec with low lag, logging works so you don't lose your ship in a turkey shoot 4 hours after logging.


handaki
Posted - 2010.02.02 06:38:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Alphonse Diago
Uh....ccp has it ever crossed your minds to maybe,i dunno, reward people for showing up? Why don't you guys take down the names of all the participants and have a draw. Give out a few pirate ships or what not to them on tq. Just a thought.

Such events have been had in the past.

I recall one where people were rewarded for bug reports. But those rewards involved, for instance, all level 5 skills on sisi and things like that.

The CSM1 discussed this during our trip to Iceland. I recall that the problem was mostly that it was time-consuming and CCP couldn't give any reward that had *any* impact on TQ whatsoever.

But remember. It's a reward in itself to get lag fixed. It's a shared responsibility of the community to help fix an issue that affects a large amount of people.


Hmm one possible solution is industrialist like myself turning around and offering the prizes... but I would prefer that the prizes go to say the person who turned up to the most test over a series of tests.. for instance (and ccp can contact me about this if they want) I am willing to offer a freighter of the players choice or a billion isk to the player CCP records as being the most helpful with this series of lag tests

or there are those once only ships that everybody with a working account got at one time (see apotheosis shuttle), well speaking personaly if ccp is willing to manufacture it I and others would mine the required ore (and wham bang unique (kind of) prizesSmile)

another prize possibilty is PLEX's

and I am sure the player base can come up with even more ideas for this that just involve transfer of assets in eve rather than making something new


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