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Sonkut
Minmatar
The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.07.30 13:33:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Sonkut on 30/07/2010 15:21:14
Edited by: Sonkut on 30/07/2010 14:36:10
Final thoughts.
What if the Talocan were escapees that were hunted down? Maybe this is why the Jove abandoned emergent technology. You can turn almost any of the current history to this idea, the Jove elders collapsed the first empire? Maybe they are the creators of the escape plan. The presence of Talocan Static gates, suggests they got away if this is the case.

Mirrors are also made to reflect things, and wormholes are made from gathered energies of a specific type? Have a look at this:
Interesting Image
Looks like a wormhole creation device to me. could this be activated in a similar way to closing wormholes maybe?
I don’t know how much bashing my photo bucket login will take but it will be there for a little while at least.

Also the Oruze construct looks like a sun obscured by a planet as in an eclipse. Could refer to a specific planet or it could suggest the sun is contained inside the Oruze and the energy is being transferred out.

It may not only be the Oruze construct that is designed in a symbol form.

Sorry for the triple post, but I was reading and writing this most of the morning, the way the post reads is the route I went through to come to my conclusion and so may all be relevant to understanding.

Don’t hurt me, I didn’t do it, I blame you all for getting me hooked on a story.

Haldane IV
Einstein's Dreams
Posted - 2010.07.30 13:39:00 - [152]
 

Complex name: Forgotten Perimeter Coronation Platform (class 1)
Coronation: •the ceremony of installing a new monarch
How does this belong?

Hi, Sonkut.

Maybe this could refer to the Corona of a Sun? "Coronation" sounds like a phrase you would use in "solar engineering"

Sonkut
Minmatar
The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.07.30 13:53:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Sonkut on 30/07/2010 14:18:39
Originally by: Haldane IV
Complex name: Forgotten Perimeter Coronation Platform (class 1)
Coronation: •the ceremony of installing a new monarch
How does this belong?

Hi, Sonkut.

Maybe this could refer to the Corona of a Sun? "Coronation" sounds like a phrase you would use in "solar engineering"


face/palm - Doh!

Nice catch - still, what service would a coronation platform perform, if this is the case, it might require further studdy.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:57:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 30/07/2010 19:47:13
Originally by: Sonkut
Final thoughts.
What if the Talocan were escapees that were hunted down? Maybe this is why the Jove abandoned emergent technology. You can turn almost any of the current history to this idea, the Jove elders collapsed the first empire? Maybe they are the creators of the escape plan. The presence of Talocan Static gates, suggests they got away if this is the case.

Mirrors are also made to reflect things, and wormholes are made from gathered energies of a specific type? Have a look at this:
Interesting Image
I don’t know how much bashing my photo bucket login will take but it will be there for a little while at least.

Also the Oruze construct looks like a sun obscured by a planet as in an eclipse. Could refer to a specific planet or it could suggest the sun is contained inside the Oruze and the energy is being transferred out.

It may not only be the Oruze construct that is designed in a symbol form.

Sorry for the triple post, but I was reading and writing this most of the morning, the way the post reads is the route I went through to come to my conclusion and so may all be relevant to understanding.

Don’t hurt me, I didn’t do it, I blame you all for getting me hooked on a story.


Darnit, whether you realize it or not, you beat me to it. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion

That looks suspiciously like a cayley graph.

Look at the information from "The Mirror" and then this:

Quote:
However, quaternions have had a revival since the late 20th century, primarily due to their utility in describing spatial rotations. Representations of rotations by quaternions are more compact and faster to compute than representations by matrices and unlike Euler angles are not susceptible to gimbal lock. For this reason, quaternions are used in computer graphics, computer vision, robotics, control theory, signal processing, attitude control, physics, bioinformatics, molecular dynamics computer simulation and orbital mechanics. For example, it is common for spacecraft attitude-control systems to be commanded in terms of quaternions. Quaternions have received another boost from number theory because of their relation to quadratic forms.


Virtual reality, robotics, bioinformatics... even navigation. A single "language". This is how the fluid routers are configured, their "proprietary language".

Add to this the J-locus signatures, which could very well be a reference to a Jacobian matrix and determinants, and we have a very interesting notion: The Mirrors are central processing units, designed to work in parallel.

This leads to a very interesting conundrum; why are they there, and how?

All the clues are there in the Mirror. They are the central hubs of the Sleepers. They are designed for parallel computing, not only of the vast array of information stored in the mirrors, but also for navigation.

You see, I have a very interesting hypothesis. The Sleepers arrived long, long after the Talocan. In fact, I believe they used Talocan technology to get there in the first place. The clues are in the Talocan sites, indicating recent use of the Static Gate accelerator things (I don't have the names of them at hand).

This isn't the "whole answer", but it's a huge leap forward and gives a direction to look in I think.

Sonkut
Minmatar
The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:13:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Helena Ianikova

All the clues are there in the Mirror. They are the central hubs of the Sleepers. They are designed for parallel computing, not only of the vast array of information stored in the mirrors, but also for navigation.



Looks like a token ring to me.... "shudder"
If it were for Parallel computing i would assume they would use the normal star layout for the fastest means by which to transfer data, why go to such lengths to leave a space in the middle?

On the Quaternion, not going to pretend i understand, way above my maths level.

Avaan Eclipse
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:28:00 - [156]
 

I visited both the Oruze Construct and the Oruze Osobnyk yesterday and took these pictures:
Oruze Construct
Oruze Osobnyk 1
Oruze Osobnyk 2
Oruze Osobnyk 3

The difference between the two structures are stated in the popup you get when you enter the Oruze Osobnyk:

Quote:
... An enclave positioned at the heart of the construct appears to have been entirely redesigned. It is flanked by two others, which in turn are hedged in by engineering stations that themselves seem to have been redesigned. ...


Apparently the Oruze construct serves another purpose than the Oruze Osobnyk. If we take into account that the sleeper battleships seem to be worn and old, compared to the pristine cruisers and frigates, I think we can say that somehwere along the line the sleepers have changed purpose. I believe that the sleeper battleships were originally built for some purpose other than warfare, and that weapons have been added later. This could explain the hard-coded limits on the Emergent Combat Intelligence we find, as they would have evolved from something other than combat intelligence and as such would have been hard-coded with a safeguard to prevent it from developing sentiance and revolt against it's constructors.

I also visited the Quarantine Area, the site with the "missiles are armed -" local message. And I believe that the quarantine spoken of in this message were once enforced by the Talocan. Partly because as far as I know the sleepers don't use missiles, and partly because we can't understand the sleeper language (which I believe is what the undecipherable transmissions in the sleeper enclaves is) and we can clearly understand that message, which implies that if it's of Talocan origin, they (or rather their language) is a precursor to at least one of the New Eden civilizations.

Moreover, I don't believe the sleepers are in control of their drones anymore, I think they are operating on their own, which would imply that the sleepers are not a "download civilization" but are just sleeping in cryostasis in the Sleeper Preservation Conduits that are found in every sleeper station. But I have no real evidence for this (except for the Sleeper Preservation Conduits), so I won't delve deeper into that.

For the record; I like Helena's post, and the idea that the sleeper installations are part of a computing network, perhaps a huge emergent intelligence, maybe even the remains of the Jovian experiments with emergent technologies?

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:32:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Sonkut
Looks like a token ring to me.... "shudder"
If it were for Parallel computing i would assume they would use the normal star layout for the fastest means by which to transfer data, why go to such lengths to leave a space in the middle?

Fluid routers. Also, the Mirror enclaves are separate databases. The Oruze is the newest one, it has the least information, and there are "oruze" constructs out there. Meaning they are/were in progress. It's an ongoing research project.

One "branch" if you will.

Quote:
On the Quaternion, not going to pretend i understand, way above my maths level.

I don't understand it all myself, but it makes sense. On so many levels it hurts my brain. :(

Sonkut
Minmatar
The Motley Few
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:46:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Avaan Eclipse
Partly because as far as I know the sleepers don't use missiles, and partly because we can't understand the sleeper language (which I believe is what the undecipherable transmissions in the sleeper enclaves is) and we can clearly understand that message, which implies that if it's of Talocan origin, they (or rather their language) is a precursor to at least one of the New Eden civilizations.



Sleepers do use missile, the first sleeper site I visited recently I remember the missiles hurting *lots*. Also the Minmitar are said to have been a great empire once and their elders have an unknown life span. I’m gona stick with my theory though until there is a reasonable means to disprove it, I can’t account for the plague zones but that’s not a down side.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.30 17:18:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Avaan Eclipse
I visited both the Oruze Construct and the Oruze Osobnyk yesterday and took these pictures:
Oruze Construct
Oruze Osobnyk 1
Oruze Osobnyk 2
Oruze Osobnyk 3

The difference between the two structures are stated in the popup you get when you enter the Oruze Osobnyk:

Quote:
... An enclave positioned at the heart of the construct appears to have been entirely redesigned. It is flanked by two others, which in turn are hedged in by engineering stations that themselves seem to have been redesigned. ...


Apparently the Oruze construct serves another purpose than the Oruze Osobnyk. If we take into account that the sleeper battleships seem to be worn and old, compared to the pristine cruisers and frigates, I think we can say that somehwere along the line the sleepers have changed purpose. I believe that the sleeper battleships were originally built for some purpose other than warfare, and that weapons have been added later. This could explain the hard-coded limits on the Emergent Combat Intelligence we find, as they would have evolved from something other than combat intelligence and as such would have been hard-coded with a safeguard to prevent it from developing sentiance and revolt against it's constructors.

I also visited the Quarantine Area, the site with the "missiles are armed -" local message. And I believe that the quarantine spoken of in this message were once enforced by the Talocan. Partly because as far as I know the sleepers don't use missiles, and partly because we can't understand the sleeper language (which I believe is what the undecipherable transmissions in the sleeper enclaves is) and we can clearly understand that message, which implies that if it's of Talocan origin, they (or rather their language) is a precursor to at least one of the New Eden civilizations.

We also understand the information in the Mirror too. There's hints at a connection between the Sleepers and the Talocan. Perhaps this is the connection, or the hint as to what that connection is?

Quote:
Moreover, I don't believe the sleepers are in control of their drones anymore, I think they are operating on their own, which would imply that the sleepers are not a "download civilization" but are just sleeping in cryostasis in the Sleeper Preservation Conduits that are found in every sleeper station. But I have no real evidence for this (except for the Sleeper Preservation Conduits), so I won't delve deeper into that.

I wonder if these really are Sleepers, or if they are just Sleeper drones being used by someone. At the very least,

Quote:
For the record; I like Helena's post, and the idea that the sleeper installations are part of a computing network, perhaps a huge emergent intelligence, maybe even the remains of the Jovian experiments with emergent technologies?

Dropbear did say to connect the dots. The dots are making a very interesting picture. I also wonder if the locus signatures make a picture if connected. Could be something, could be nothing.

Terokone
Posted - 2010.07.30 17:41:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Avaan Eclipse

I also visited the Quarantine Area, the site with the "missiles are armed -" local message. And I believe that the quarantine spoken of in this message were once enforced by the Talocan. Partly because as far as I know the sleepers don't use missiles, and partly because we can't understand the sleeper language (which I believe is what the undecipherable transmissions in the sleeper enclaves is) and we can clearly understand that message, which implies that if it's of Talocan origin, they (or rather their language) is a precursor to at least one of the New Eden civilizations.



Since I saw the word "trinary" in this post, I figured I'd point something out.
From an in-character standpoint, I assume all communications are digitized. From the rogue drones, I can also assume that all empires and organizations in k-space (minus the Jove as I'm not sure about them yet) use binary in their computer systems.
Now to connect these. Universal translators onboard ships could easily translate communications by detecting binary patterns, which would explain why an Amarr can speak with an Intaki, who can speak with a Caldari, who can speak with the Gallente, and so on.

Now, throw in the Sleepers. If their more advanced computer systems are in trinary, it would make sense that their communications are undecipherable.

But then, they could also be running in binary. Massive parallelism could simply be overwhelming our ship computers to the point where only "Oruze" and "Osobnyk" are the only two words that can be determined.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.30 18:13:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Terokone
Since I saw the word "trinary" in this post, I figured I'd point something out.
From an in-character standpoint, I assume all communications are digitized. From the rogue drones, I can also assume that all empires and organizations in k-space (minus the Jove as I'm not sure about them yet) use binary in their computer systems.
Now to connect these. Universal translators onboard ships could easily translate communications by detecting binary patterns, which would explain why an Amarr can speak with an Intaki, who can speak with a Caldari, who can speak with the Gallente, and so on.

Now, throw in the Sleepers. If their more advanced computer systems are in trinary, it would make sense that their communications are undecipherable.

But then, they could also be running in binary. Massive parallelism could simply be overwhelming our ship computers to the point where only "Oruze" and "Osobnyk" are the only two words that can be determined.

Jove use Trinary.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.30 19:15:00 - [162]
 

I've been looking over Dropbear's posts.

C-60 here and here

So, the Jove mastered fullerene tech? Fullerene tech can be applied to medical applications? It sounds like the Mirror may be pointing to research into fullerenes, for a variety of purposes, using a variety of scientific fields. It may explain why an Intaki Polymath was able to design the Zephyr to get past the Sleepers, using integrated systems.

Skothen Chetokk
Posted - 2010.07.31 00:13:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Helena Ianikova
I also wonder if the locus signatures make a picture if connected. Could be something, could be nothing.


I have tried to spot a pattern or something like a symbol in the Locus signatures but didn't find anything impressive yet. At first it looks like a vast mass of random data, but there are some structures that are too odd to be random.
I will try to collect some stuff I have read in Eve Fiction forum and found out myself.

1) The Locus data ranges from 100001 to 235953, it makes sense to divide that into 10'00'01 and 23'59'53, in the following I will refer to these values as x,y,z.
The values could reflect hours, minutes and seconds. However I don't know how to use that any further.

2) I have tried to spot mathmatical patterns by comparing the whole numbers and stuff like prime factorization but there was nothing. (It would be awesome if we could identify 4 core values and connect them to adenosine, thymine, cytosine and guanine YARRRR!!)

3) x ranges from 10 to 23, but misses 18 and 19 completetly and most of 16 and 20
(see this graphics made from all locus signatures: x,y dataand x, z data)

4)y and z range from 00 to 59, however if you take them together it looks like this: y, z data
could be a kind of Arecibo message or just completely random Smile.

4)There are 3 odd signatures: J1340+6, J1259+0 and J1226-0. These could be hints to the whole by CCP, balancing variables in a locus equation or just naming mistakes done by the creators of the network's nomenclature .

6) It is possible that there are images in the data that are hidden because I displayed too many locus signatures at once. Because of that I have made 2d pictures of Unknown region 17, but it still looks random. (Although I still have hope that it might be some wicked symbol if you look at it from the right angle)
Region 17; x,y
Region 17; x,z
Region 17; y,z

(Still hoping for a double helix somewhere)

7) What is the real number of Locus signatures ? In my data there are 2497 systems, and I have seen 2499 somewhere else in these Sleeper threadnoughts. Both are close to 2500, so there might be some wormhole systems missing.


Any ideas what to do next ? Anyone with a 3d modelling program and knowledge of it ?

P.S: spreadsheet with all data divided into x,y,z; Region 17 spreadsheet


Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.31 07:00:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Avaan Eclipse
I visited both the Oruze Construct and the Oruze Osobnyk yesterday and took these pictures:
Oruze Construct
Oruze Osobnyk 1
Oruze Osobnyk 2
Oruze Osobnyk 3




The Construct appears like an uncompleted Osobnyk, perhaps it is as simple as under Construction and never finished.

The ring like structure give me a sense of space dock, with a number of saucer shaped ships docked. Perhaps construction has not started or, perhaps they've already left.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.07.31 07:16:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Avaan Eclipse
I visited both the Oruze Construct and the Oruze Osobnyk yesterday and took these pictures:
Oruze Construct
Oruze Osobnyk 1
Oruze Osobnyk 2
Oruze Osobnyk 3

The difference between the two structures are stated in the popup you get when you enter the Oruze Osobnyk:

Quote:
... An enclave positioned at the heart of the construct appears to have been entirely redesigned. It is flanked by two others, which in turn are hedged in by engineering stations that themselves seem to have been redesigned. ...


It seems to me that the Construct is just the "heart enclave" of an Osobnyk. The Construct seems a work in progress (a Construction site perhaps?) to build an Osobnyk, which is the final stage of such a redesign.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.31 09:59:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 10:00:18
An experiment in inductive reasoning (hopefully I've done this right)

On the Jove as the ones behind the Sleepers

Capsules have Fullerite technology in their design.
The Capsule was provided to the races by the Jove.
The Jove are known to be masters of Fullerite technology.

Therefore, the Jove have Fullerite technology.

Fullerites and the mathematic principles behind them can be applied to starship construction as well as many other fields, such as robotics, bioinformatics, navigation, computing and visualization and virtualization technology.

A.
Sleepers have Fullerite technology
The Jove have Fullerite technology

B.
The Sleepers have an interest in genetics.
The Jove have an interest in genetics.

C.
Sleeper Drones use emergent programming.
The Jove used emergent programming at one time in the past, but decided to use more controllable means for unknown reasons.

D.
Sleeper Drones use Temporal Cartesian Locators.
The Jove use Temporal Cartesian Locators.

E.
The Sleepers do not use shields.
The Jove do use shields.

A, B and D are current technological similarities.
C is a past technological similarity
E is a current technological difference.

By inductive reasoning, there are many technological similarities between the Sleepers and the Jove. There is one past similarity that is not a current similarity. There is one obvious technological difference.

One (possible) Tautological statement has been stated in the evidence: The Jove have mastered Fullerite technology. No other race in New Eden has mastered this technology. Therefore, it is not likely that the current Jove Empire would be behind the Sleepers.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.31 10:17:00 - [167]
 

Another experiment, this time with some more tenuous links.

On the connection between Rogue Drones and Sleepers

A.
Rogue Drones are automated constructs.
Sleeper Drones are automated constructs.

B.
Rogue Drones use advanced material processing techniques.
Sleeper Drones use advanced material processing techniques.

C.
Rogue Drones use energy based weapons.
Sleeper Drones use energy based weapons.

D.
Rogue Drones build central processing clusters, or "hive minds", as well as having battleship sized "queen" drones.
Sleeper Drones build central processing hubs, as well as having battleship sized AI Nexus drones.

E.
Sleepers use missile based weapons in turrets and on their ships.
Rogue drones use missile based weapons in turrets (I'm unsure as to whether they use missiles).

F.
Rogue Drones are infected by corrupt programming and/or emergent (possibly sentient) AI.
Sleeper Drones operate as emergent systems within an AI network.

A, B and C are current (apparent) technological similarities. D and F are current technological parallels. E is a possible similarity that I do not have the full answers for.

Beyond this, Sleeper Drones are far more advanced, possessing Fullerite technology. Froma metagame perspective, both have potentially been used to extract Isogen-5 isotopes, and both have the obvious capability to do so.

Using inductive reasoning, there is a strong superficial resemblence between the two, though the technological capacities are vastly different. Further study is necessary.

Side Note: At least one mission arc states that the Sleepers are believed to be the ancestors of the Jove by some. This is in a mission that indicates a new form of Rogue Drones having "life signs".

Avaan Eclipse
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.31 10:29:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Avaan Eclipse on 31/07/2010 11:18:45
Originally by: Skothen Chetokk
P.S: spreadsheet with all data divided into x,y,z; Region 17 spreadsheet


Why is there three rows for the locus signatures in the full raw data?

I'll see if I can plot this in MatLab, I'm not terribly good at it, but it's worth a shot.

Edit: Done, and it's terribly uninteresting, Skothen's plots show very well how it looks, it's just 6 or seven planes of points in random positions. The last two planes are separate from the rest. Looking at it from pretty much any angle other than straight above, from the front or from the side just yields a jumbled mess of points. If people really want I can post some pictures, but I assure you, they will be very similar to Skothen's.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.31 10:55:00 - [169]
 

Some more "random" reasoning, I need to clean this up and use some induction to see if this is reasonable.

The Society of Conscious Thought and The Mirror

A. The Society of Conscious Thought membership includes Jove, as well as members from other races.

B. The Society would not allow non-Jove to have access to Jove secrets, but would be more comfortable to give them access to technology that could easily be improved upon and developed naturally, such as:

1. Sleeper Technology is something that has been encountered in New Eden.

2. Talocan Technology is something that has been encountered in New Eden.

3. Emergent systems were something the Jove abandoned.

This points to some very interesting possibilities:

1. The Jove giving Capsule technology, which could be derived from Sleeper technology.

2. The unlocking of acceleration gates, which could be based on Talocan technology.

3. The select distribution of Emergent system technologies, something they themselves abandoned.

These technologies could easily have been employed, in tandem, to arrive in Sleeper space the "old fashioned way". Talocan technology to set up forward teams, Sleeper vessels to explore the systems once they got there, and Emergent AI to do the analysis work. What were they looking for though?

Well, we may have a clue in the three "non-standard" Locus IDs.

J1340+6
J1259+0
J1226-0

These can all be traced to "fossile group" galaxies. Galaxies that collided, and were "swallowed" by a larger one (if I understand everything properly).

This is a link to New Eden, through the "Trace Cosmos" landmark. What I think is this; the Stars themselves are being studied by the Society of Conscious Thought, as well as being an attempt to understand Terran technology. The expedition could have been begun as early as the time when the Society controlled the Jove, or as late as shortly after Jamyl fired her super-weapon. It's also possible that the Talocan had discovered W-space sooner, as a result of finding Trace Cosmos and possibly some clues there.

So, in my mind, we have a good chance of understanding the who, the where, and the why.

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.07.31 12:14:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:44:31
Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:35:29
Originally by: Skothen Chetokk
Originally by: Helena Ianikova
I also wonder if the locus signatures make a picture if connected. Could be something, could be nothing.


I have tried to spot a pattern or something like a symbol in the Locus signatures but didn't find anything impressive yet. At first it looks like a vast mass of random data, but there are some structures that are too odd to be random.
I will try to collect some stuff I have read in Eve Fiction forum and found out myself.

1) The Locus data ranges from 100001 to 235953, it makes sense to divide that into 10'00'01 and 23'59'53, in the following I will refer to these values as x,y,z.
The values could reflect hours, minutes and seconds. However I don't know how to use that any further.

2) I have tried to spot mathmatical patterns by comparing the whole numbers and stuff like prime factorization but there was nothing. (It would be awesome if we could identify 4 core values and connect them to adenosine, thymine, cytosine and guanine YARRRR!!)

3) x ranges from 10 to 23, but misses 18 and 19 completetly and most of 16 and 20
(see this graphics made from all locus signatures: x,y dataand x, z data)

4)y and z range from 00 to 59, however if you take them together it looks like this: y, z data
could be a kind of Arecibo message or just completely random Smile.

4)There are 3 odd signatures: J1340+6, J1259+0 and J1226-0. These could be hints to the whole by CCP, balancing variables in a locus equation or just naming mistakes done by the creators of the network's nomenclature .

6) It is possible that there are images in the data that are hidden because I displayed too many locus signatures at once. Because of that I have made 2d pictures of Unknown region 17, but it still looks random. (Although I still have hope that it might be some wicked symbol if you look at it from the right angle)
Region 17; x,y
Region 17; x,z
Region 17; y,z

(Still hoping for a double helix somewhere)

7) What is the real number of Locus signatures ? In my data there are 2497 systems, and I have seen 2499 somewhere else in these Sleeper threadnoughts. Both are close to 2500, so there might be some wormhole systems missing.


Any ideas what to do next ? Anyone with a 3d modelling program and knowledge of it ?

P.S: spreadsheet with all data divided into x,y,z; Region 17 spreadsheet



I know what the system used is. It's based on a neural network model.

It's a Hopfield net. EDIT: Or a Boltzmann machine.

Further EDIT: This lead me to This.
Quote:
The theory is commonly evoked to explain some types of associative learning in which simultaneous activation of cells leads to pronounced increases in synaptic strength. Such learning is known as Hebbian learning.


Cool.Cool

Aynen
Posted - 2010.07.31 14:35:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Aynen on 31/07/2010 14:41:46
Edited by: Aynen on 31/07/2010 14:39:52
If I remember correctly the sleepers did research into the creation of stars, right? Well, what if the oruze construct is like a dyson sphere around a very small 'home-made' star?

About the previous post's quote on the locus numbers: If they do represent time, there is a link between the locus and the cartographer modules that where, for some reason, configured to adjust their speed according to distance traveled. Perhaps the locus numbers are 'time of arrival' based on how fast the cartographer ship was traveling manually from the previous star?

edit: Might that mean that these systems form a relatively straight line if mapped? That would make sense if the sleepers where trying to get somewhere...

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.31 18:09:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Aynen

what if the oruze construct is like a dyson sphere around a very small 'home-made' star?



They are no where near big enough, but it does make me wonder how big is the Eve Gate ? Big enough to be a Dyson Sphere?


Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.07.31 19:00:00 - [173]
 

Assuming that the Jove were around at the same time as the Takmahl, Yan Jung, Sleepers, and Talocan, is it possible that the Jove started a war with them in an attempt to eradicate all four?

Talocan ships are found gutted and abandoned, that could mean they were a group on the run. The Yan Jung designed acceleration gates, that, again, could mean they were trying to run away from something. The Sleepers, being experts with neural interfaces, cryonics, and virtual reality, could have created virtual worlds for themselves, while leaving their actual bodies preserved. That, again, could mean that they tried to escape some sort of disastrous event. I don't know very much about the Takmahl, however, so I have no way to account for their disappearance.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.31 19:31:00 - [174]
 

There are hints the Takmahl turned into the Blood Raiders. They also only date back 1000 to 2000 years making them relatively young compared to the Jove or Yan Jung.

I assume the Sleepers and Talocan are also as old as the Jove and Yan Jung and my instinct says the Talocan are older then Sleepers but I cannot prove that.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.07.31 20:53:00 - [175]
 

I think people are overlooking stuff.

Like say..

This?
Quote:
Entirely void of any life, this small pocket of deadspace echoes a story told all over the vast stretches of unknown territory – the demise of the ancient Sleeper race. Information portals – offering the only data that is decipherable – refer to the area as “Enclave Cohort 27″, identifying the two enclaves among many other sleeper settlements. One enclave has been clearly disconnected from its power supply whilst the other has succumbed to the same, solemn fate for some other, unknown cause.

Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

There was clearly a battle of sorts.

Distance between the two enclaves is about 120km or so, for reference.

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.08.01 02:57:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Otocinclus on 01/08/2010 02:57:31
So there is evidence to support my theory. Whew...Very Happy

Dropbear did say that once we started turning ideas into theories, certain things would begin to come together.

I also find it strange that the Blood Raider leadership not only knew the location of the Jamyl's Abaddon, but also knew how to exert at least partial control over the rogue drones. Pottsey suggested that the Blood Raiders evolved from the Takmahl, and to be honest I'm quite inclined to believe him.

I also find it interesting that the Takmahl were experts with cybernetics. Sansha, who has seemingly risen from the dead at a VERY convenient time, is apparently a master of cybernetics himself. Another connection to the Takmahl perhaps?

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.08.01 06:11:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Myxx
I think people are overlooking stuff.

Like say..

This?
Quote:
Entirely void of any life, this small pocket of deadspace echoes a story told all over the vast stretches of unknown territory – the demise of the ancient Sleeper race. Information portals – offering the only data that is decipherable – refer to the area as “Enclave Cohort 27″, identifying the two enclaves among many other sleeper settlements. One enclave has been clearly disconnected from its power supply whilst the other has succumbed to the same, solemn fate for some other, unknown cause.

Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

There was clearly a battle of sorts.

Distance between the two enclaves is about 120km or so, for reference.

How did you reach the conclusion that it was a battle?

What we know:
1. Information portals: identify the area as "Enclave Cohort 27".
2. These are two enclaves, among many other sleeper settlements.
3. One enclaves has been disconnected from it's power supply.
4. The other has been as well, for unknown causes.

All that we know for certain are:
1. The identifier for the area.
2. The enclaves are removed from their power source.
3. There are no life signs.

We could even break the identifier down, and use some induction to try and ascertain the meaning.

Enclave:
A distinct territorial, cultural, or social unit enclosed within or as if within foreign territory

Cohort:
–noun
1.
a group or company: She has a cohort of admirers.
2.
a companion or associate.
3.
one of the ten divisions in an ancient Roman legion, numbering from 300 to 600 soldiers.
4.
any group of soldiers or warriors.
5.
an accomplice; abettor: He got off with probation, but his cohorts got ten years apiece.
6.
a group of persons sharing a particular statistical or demographic characteristic: the cohort of all children born in 1980.
7.
Biology . an individual in a population of the same species.

If we really wanted to go crazy, we could even add in the number 27, but that would be a bit crazy. Wink

My real point however is this; you have a good hypothesis.

The Sleepers were in a war.

I don't see any real evidence supporting this in the Enclave you've linked, but perhaps you've seen other sites to indicate this? Is this part of the picture you see, and if so, what other parts do we need to be looking at to form the whole image?

If they were in a war, how does that explain what is going on now?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't see it in the evidence presented. What is your supporting reasoning?

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.08.01 06:19:00 - [178]
 

Ruins of enclave cohort 27

perimeter hangar
perimeter checkpoint
...

perimeter data sanctuary

..

Do I need to outline a pattern here?

They were in a war.

How else would you deliberately disconnect power supplies from a major area during a conflict that would result in a major gas leak into the area along with the debris?

It was shot at. Look at it, then at other sleeper areas. And then mission areas in known space that have wrecks.

see the similarity?

Kirian Kador
Amarr
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.08.01 08:17:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Helena Ianikova
Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:44:31
Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:35:29

I know what the system used is. It's based on a neural network model.

It's a Hopfield net. EDIT: Or a Boltzmann machine.

Further EDIT: This lead me to This.
Quote:
The theory is commonly evoked to explain some types of associative learning in which simultaneous activation of cells leads to pronounced increases in synaptic strength. Such learning is known as Hebbian learning.


Cool.Cool


Can you elaborate on it more please lol? What exactly leads you to believe this system is based on neural network model? And if you are right what do you think the implications are and where do we take research from here in order to understand the network completely?

Helena Ianikova
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:37:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Kirian Kador
Originally by: Helena Ianikova
Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:44:31
Edited by: Helena Ianikova on 31/07/2010 12:35:29

I know what the system used is. It's based on a neural network model.

It's a Hopfield net. EDIT: Or a Boltzmann machine.

Further EDIT: This lead me to This.
Quote:
The theory is commonly evoked to explain some types of associative learning in which simultaneous activation of cells leads to pronounced increases in synaptic strength. Such learning is known as Hebbian learning.


Cool.Cool


Can you elaborate on it more please lol? What exactly leads you to believe this system is based on neural network model? And if you are right what do you think the implications are and where do we take research from here in order to understand the network completely?

Well, let's look at it this way:

First, we have the Boltzmann Net basics:
Quote:
A Boltzmann machine is the name given to a type of stochastic recurrent neural network by Geoffrey Hinton and Terry Sejnowski. Boltzmann machines can be seen as the stochastic, generative counterpart of Hopfield nets. They were one of the first examples of a neural network capable of learning internal representations, and are able to represent and (given sufficient time) solve difficult combinatoric problems.


And, the following problems:
Quote:
However, due to a number of issues discussed below, Boltzmann machines with unconstrained connectivity have not proven useful for practical problems in machine learning or inference. They are still theoretically intriguing, however, due to the locality and Hebbian nature of their training algorithm, as well as their parallelism and the resemblance of their dynamics to simple physical processes. If the connectivity is constrained, the learning can be made efficient enough to be useful for practical problems.


The connections in a Boltzmann machine have two restrictions:
Quote:
No unit has a connection with itself.
All connections are symmetric.

Symmetry can be defined as follows:
Quote:
The "precise" notions of symmetry have various measures and operational definitions. For example, symmetry may be observed:
with respect to the passage of time;
as a spatial relationship;
through geometric transformations such as scaling, reflection, and rotation;
through other kinds of functional transformations;
as an aspect of abstract objects, theoretic models, language, music and even knowledge itself.

It's not a perfect fit, but if we assume the passage of time is the "symmetry", it would explain many of the features of Sleeper ship technology. Namely, the use of a Temporal Cartesian Coordinates system. In the mathematics that would be used, it also points to Yan Jung technology and, in a roundabout fashion, to the SOCT.

We could use this information to form a very strong hypothesis, linking explaining the Sleepers and the W-space mystery. I will, however, save that for a later time. ;) I'm still working through the questions involved myself. I do think the "overall mystery" needs to be tackled in smaller pieces, in a "Euclidean" method if you will, and then those problems may indeed form a bigger picture when pieced together, "in a line".


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