open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] Again, missiles need a "tracking enhancer"!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
Ugly Naughty Larvas
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:02:00 - [1]
 

All turret races have the close-combat weapons. Autocannons, Blasters and Pulse Lasers.
All turret races may use the cheating modules "tracking enhancer" and "tracking computer" making their ships able to deliver DPS a LOT farther. E.g. Vagabond or hurricane with 50km faloff or Apoc with 90km range of pulse lasers and so on.

And what is the range of Caldari "close weapons"? 18km in perfect for the HAMs and Torpedoes without ship bonuses. I'm not even whispering about rockets. This is absolutely inacceptable situation, when piece of scrap, called Tempest, is penetrating shields of glorious caldari battleships from 80 kilometres with autocannons!

Me on behalf of the all true Caldari demands the military scientists immediately invent the following:

Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Computer that will bring the 7,5% to the missile speed, 15% to the missile flight time and 15% to the missile explosion radius. Scripts for flight time and explosion radius.

Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Enhancer that will bring the 15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time and 9,5% to the missile explosion speed.

And these modules must affect all missiles.

All our brothers in arms, even if they belongs to other race should definitely support this call.

CePoBoDopoD
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:05:00 - [2]
 

Support this topic

Storm Templar
Amarr
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:41:00 - [3]
 

No! No flavours.

Missiles always hit, have ridiculous range, can choose damage type to hit resist holes, can't be disrupted or jammed (FoF, it sucks but a chance at hitting something is still better than hitting nothing).

Keep the weapons different. Do not try to vanilla-lise them. I might as well suggest a guidance system jammer/EWAR module that only applies to missiles. Say reducing flight time and a chance at missing the target altogether?

Have you ever been cursed with Blasters? Now them boys have got it bad, while you be tearing their armour away in your Raven 20-25kms away while they try to hit you ineffectually

Although I'll agree that rocket needs work and that all missile should have their flight time halved and their speed doubled.

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 12:42:00 - [4]
 

No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'

Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.

Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.01.28 13:27:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'

Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.

Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.


This.

Not supported.

Ni'ka
Posted - 2010.01.28 13:44:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ni''ka on 28/01/2010 14:01:51
Originally by: Storm Templar

Missiles always hit


You ever hear about explosion velocity and signature radius?? Yes, they hit, but for a damage you can die from laugh on Caldari.

Quote:
have ridiculous range


yeah, unbonused Amarr missile boats can hit at rediculos 20km. 30km For Torp on raven, and 250 for Cruise. But Rokh can shoot at *SURPRISE* 250km.

Quote:
can choose damage type to hit resist holes


Caldari ships mostly have Kinetic missile damage bonus. and mostly resist holes equal to lost bonus damage, so there is no diference, unless Caldaki will have bonus damage to ALL miseles, or as for Amarr, no bonus at all.


Quote:
can't be disrupted or jammed (FoF, it sucks but a chance at hitting something is still better than hitting nothing).


Since then jamming not affecting missile ships?? First you need to switch to FoF, and back for normals then jam is over. and this takes at least 20 seconds.

And mostly use of FoF make no difference at all.

+only "Guided" missiles have FoFs. making only half of weapons affacted by this. + There is defender missiles (but they shouls be ovehauled too) and smartbombs, that kills missiles.

Quote:

Keep the weapons different. Do not try to vanilla-lise them. I might as well suggest a guidance system jammer/EWAR module that only applies to missiles. Say reducing flight time and a chance at missing the target altogether?


Yes, that's why all missile weapons \ countering should be overhauled.

Quote:

Have you ever been cursed with Blasters? Now them boys have got it bad, while you be tearing their armour away in your Raven 20-25kms away while they try to hit you ineffectually


Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??

Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range
Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.

Quote:

Although I'll agree that rocket needs work



Yes

Quote:
and that all missile should have their flight time halved and their speed doubled.


No

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 13:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ni'ka

You ever hear about explosion velocity and signature radius?? Yes, they hit, but for a damage you can die from laugh on Caldari.


This is true. But some damage is better than no damage. In fact... missile ships are the bane of most speed tankers.
Quote:

yeah, unbonused Amarr missile boats can hit at rediculos 20km. 30km For Topr on raven, and 250 for Cruise. But Rokh can shoot at *SURPRISE* 250km.



Congrats, but can a Rokh hit for the same damage at 250km as it can at 60km? Didn't think so.
Quote:

Caldari ships mostly have Kinetic missile damage bonus. and mostly resist holes equal to lost bonus damage, so there is no diference, unless Caldaki will have bonus damage to ALL miseles, or as for Amarr, no bonus at all.


Derp, ROF bonus is just as good, if not better than damage bonus.

Quote:

Since then jamming not affecting missile ships?? First you need to switch to FoF, and back for normals then jam is over. and this takes at least 20 seconds.

And mostly use of FoF make no difference at all.

+only "Guided" missiles have FoFs. making only half of weapons affacted by this. + There is defender missiles (but they shouls be ovehauled too) and smartbombs, that kills missiles.



Boy I wish I had FOF ammo for my laser, hybrid and projectile weapons. You have to be pretty pro to hit missile volleys with smartbombs and outside of Caps who fits them now?

Quote:
Yes, that's why all missile weapons \ countering should be overhauled.


Missiles are fine.
Quote:

Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??

Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range
Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.



Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.



If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.

They are two completely different weapon systems. Missiles can do some things guns can't and guns can do some things missiles can't.

Live with it princess.

HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
Ugly Naughty Larvas
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer

Quote:

Have you ever heard of Null ammo ??

Rokh with Nulls have 17+16km range
Megathron 11+16 without and traking modes.



Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.



Full damage!? ROFL! Mega can reduce the torpedoe damage for at least 30% by just moving around. Stop discussing ships you never flew.

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer

If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.

They are two completely different weapon systems. Missiles can do some things guns can't and guns can do some things missiles can't.

Live with it princess.


Turret parametres can be modified by modules, but launchers - not. It is unhonest.

Ni'ka
Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Ni''ka on 28/01/2010 14:48:48
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
In fact... missile ships are the bane of most speed tankers.


haven't noticed that. To do accepeble damage to a speed tanker, you need to neut and web him. Same will work fine for turret ships.

Quote:

Congrats, but can a Rokh hit for the same damage at 250km as it can at 60km? Didn't think so.



You still missing point. At 60km Rokh damage MORE then Raven at 200, but and 200 abit less. So it's still something in between.

Quote:
Derp, ROF bonus is just as good, if not better than damage bonus.


yes. That's why i see so many Uber-Leet-Non-caldari-missile-Ships... Oh wait.

There is sacrilege, it's sooooo used ove Zealot.
Maybe Vengeance ?? No. Assaults are rarely uset especially this cruel joke of nature.
Mayby Huginn \ Typhoon?? But Matari ust have split systems, not specialized, so mostly using both equally.
Lachesis! mmm still as pipular as Sacrilege.
Legion with missile system ?? but T3 ships in PvP a quite rare, especially this config.

Am i missing sometning ?? Naglfar ! but there is no missile bonus now, so it's just some extra DPS on those launchers, not main heapon to play with.

Quote:
Missiles are fine.


Scissors: "Paper is fine, nerf rock"

Typical turret user.

Quote:

Cool story bro. A Mega does less than half damage at the same range a Raven does full damage.



1) And torps do less damage then you move faster then 106 m\s (that's for perfect raven) and even 91m\s for Rage torps, so he need to web you to do FULL damage.

2) Missiles hit for FIXED damage, turrets can crit. Closer to your optimal - more damage. So if you get in your optimal, you do MORE damage ?? NERF turrets!

Quote:

If turret users max out their support skills they get AT MOST an extra 25% range out of their guns. If Missile users max out theirs then they get 100% extra range. Am I complaining? No.


You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.28 14:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'

Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.

Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.


not supported.

NoOne Seeko
Posted - 2010.01.28 14:50:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: NoOne Seeko on 28/01/2010 14:51:34
If such modules gonna be created then current default range of missiles has to be lowered. And I believe you won't like it.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.01.28 14:54:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Dav Varan on 28/01/2010 14:59:47
Makes perfect sense.

Fitting a Missile Enhancer [Low slot] would be a choice that probably would mean losing a bcu.

Fitting a Missile tracking computer [middle slot] , would mean less tank or less tackle.

So overall these modules would no make missiles op as many of the gun firing detractors knee jerk reactions would seem to suggest.

More options for adjusting the performance of missile boats would be good.
better hits against fast small stuff comes at the price of raw damage or tank.

and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.

Alpha195
Dead Pilots Society
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:12:00 - [13]
 

supported as long as you mean 15% reduction in explosion radius and 9.5% increase in explosion speed

and yes, i do think that missiles need flight time halved and velocity doubled

Fengo Marr
Tenacious Tendencies
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:14:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
No. Or at least not until I get missile 'tracking disruptors'

Missiles are not guns. Guns are not missiles. It's nice that you think you can hit out to 80km with an Autopest. It's positively adorable that you think he's going to do a jot of damage.

Missiles have great range already and will always hit anything in range. If you want to give yourself extra flight time/speed then sacrifice some rig slots.


Not supported, see above.

Spins Meats
Gallente
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan

and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.


Can you fit a tracking disruptor on a Raven? Yes. Can you fit defender missiles to a Dominix? No.

There are no missile disruptors.

OP - I'd support this if the existing ranges of guided and unguided missiles were nerfed commensurately. As it stands, you have to fit TEs at the expense of damage mods to make blasters useful, even WITH null (hint: null buys range at the expense of tracking), so it's a bit hard to feel sympathy for HAM/torp users who want to be able to boost their already significant range advantage.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:24:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Dav Varan on 28/01/2010 15:25:34
Originally by: Spins Meats
Originally by: Dav Varan

and ahem , defenders are the equiv of tracking disruptors , if you dont fit them then stop complaining , and yes they are crap so complain about getting them fixed rather than spouting we dont have missile disrupters.


Can you fit a tracking disruptor on a Raven? Yes. Can you fit defender missiles to a Dominix? No.

There are no missile disruptors.

OP - I'd support this if the existing ranges of guided and unguided missiles were nerfed commensurately. As it stands, you have to fit TEs at the expense of damage mods to make blasters useful, even WITH null (hint: null buys range at the expense of tracking), so it's a bit hard to feel sympathy for HAM/torp users who want to be able to boost their already significant range advantage.



Well thats one of the issues with defenders isnt it, you need to use a missile hardpoint.
They should probably have a dedicated launcher , much like the probe launchers that dont take up a missile hardpoint.

Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning.
The op is talking about fitting choices.

Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else.
So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps by losing a heat sink/gyro/mag stab.

There are no extra slots to fit the OP requested mods.


Spins Meats
Gallente
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dav Varan

Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning.
The op is talking about fitting choices.

Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else.
So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps.



OP was saying that guns are overpowered compared to missiles because of TEs, and thats why 'missile enhancers' are needed. Missiles are not guns, and if you want one of the flexibility advantages of guns (ability to fit a module to change engagement profile slightly), then missiles need to be rebalanced around that.

Besides, there's already Bay Thruster rigs which provide the flight time/velocity bonus, and painters which provide the same benefit as an explosion velocity bonus (in reverse), but for everyone in your gang.

Seems to me that guns and missiles are balanced, just different.


Dav Varan
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:47:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Spins Meats
Originally by: Dav Varan

Back to the op and requireing a nerf to justify the extra mods is just stupid reasoning.
The op is talking about fitting choices.

Fitting a missile enhancer means using a slot that is currently used for something else.
So no nerf is needed , a player fitting a low slot missile enhancer would lose dps much like the way a gun pilot fitting a te losing dps.



OP was saying that guns are overpowered compared to missiles because of TEs, and thats why 'missile enhancers' are needed. Missiles are not guns, and if you want one of the flexibility advantages of guns (ability to fit a module to change engagement profile slightly), then missiles need to be rebalanced around that.

Besides, there's already Bay Thruster rigs which provide the flight time/velocity bonus, and painters which provide the same benefit as an explosion velocity bonus (in reverse), but for everyone in your gang.

Seems to me that guns and missiles are balanced, just different.




Rigs are neither here nor there , there are plenty of choices in rigs for both guns and missiles.
Painters effect the sig radius stat of the enemy ship , they have no effect on explosion velocity which is the missile equiv of tracking.

There would be no need for missile rebalncing because were talking about choices made at fitting time.
explosion vcelocity can be improved with this mods, but something has to be given away at fitting time thats where the rebalancing occurs.

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:58:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ni'ka

haven't noticed that. To do accepeble damage to a speed tanker, you need to neut and web him. Same will work fine for turret ships.


Derp, it helps to catch them first. Many a time I've engaged a competant cruise raven or HML drake in my Vaga and had to fly away whereas turret ships would have been ineffectually missing me all day.

Quote:

You still missing point. At 60km Rokh damage MORE then Raven at 200, but and 200 abit less. So it's still something in between.



Just pulled up EFT. All level 5. Raven with 3 damage mods and faction cruise: 518 [email protected]
Rokh with 425mm II and 3 damage mods: 553 [email protected] 54+ 30
320 DPS at 194+30. Hardly a bit less and the Raven still has 2 utility highs/turret slots and a bigger drone bay.


Quote:


yes. That's why i see so many Uber-Leet-Non-caldari-missile-Ships... Oh wait.

There is sacrilege, it's sooooo used ove Zealot.
Maybe Vengeance ?? No. Assaults are rarely uset especially this cruel joke of nature.
Mayby Huginn \ Typhoon?? But Matari ust have split systems, not specialized, so mostly using both equally.
Lachesis! mmm still as pipular as Sacrilege.
Legion with missile system ?? but T3 ships in PvP a quite rare, especially this config.

Am i missing sometning ?? Naglfar ! but there is no missile bonus now, so it's just some extra DPS on those launchers, not main heapon to play with.



I see plenty of Sacs. It's just that most Amarr players haven't trained missiles and the Zealot has more utility in a lot of Snipe Hac gangs (hence you also see more Eagles than Cerbs, get over it). I don't really see what your point is. Yes some other ships have missiles as their secondary weapon system and recieve an approapriate bonus to it. As I said, 5% ROF bonus gives you more DPS than a 5% Damage bonus.

Quote:


Scissors: "Paper is fine, nerf rock"

Typical turret user.



Actually kiddo you can check my killboard. I've probably lost more missile ships than you've had hot dinners.

Quote:


1) And torps do less damage then you move faster then 106 m\s (that's for perfect raven) and even 91m\s for Rage torps, so he need to web you to do FULL damage.

2) Missiles hit for FIXED damage, turrets can crit. Closer to your optimal - more damage. So if you get in your optimal, you do MORE damage ?? NERF turrets!



Irrelevant. Turrets won't hit a moving target with transversal as well or even at all. Turrets can also 'glance' a target for less damage. Boost turrets!

Quote:

You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.


So do you.

Theac Osiris
Gallente
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.01.28 15:58:00 - [20]
 

No. Missiles are not turrets, and turrets are not missiles. They need to be distinct. I agree that some missile types, especially roflkets, need an overhaul, and perhaps do more paper DPS than turrets at the cost of not applying full damage to your typical target without webbing and target painting. This, however, is not the way to do it.

Ni'ka
Posted - 2010.01.28 17:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer

Derp, it helps to catch them first. Many a time I've engaged a competant cruise raven or HML drake in my Vaga and had to fly away whereas turret ships would have been ineffectually missing me all day.


LOL! That's defenetly a point... BS > HAC, BC > HAC. Problem is not in missiles, it's still fitting.


Quote:
Just pulled up EFT.


Oh wait, is there something missing on Rokh ?? damage bonus! Comparing to +5% ROF on raven...
Checked others ??

Apoc having 700Dps on 60km and 400 at 200 ??

Quote:

I see plenty of Sacs. It's just that most Amarr players haven't trained missiles and the Zealot has more utility in a lot of Snipe Hac gangs



exactly... there is no point in training missile line just for one ship... there must be real reason for that.

Quote:

(hence you also see more Eagles than Cerbs, get over it).


yes, coz Cerbs are inferior comparing to eagle in terms of long range shooting. And people use mostly more effective ships.

Quote:

I don't really see what your point is. Yes some other ships have missiles as their secondary weapon system and recieve an approapriate bonus to it. As I said, 5% ROF bonus gives you more DPS than a 5% Damage bonus.



Point is that most of Caldari missile ships have KINETIC DAMAGE bonus, not ROF.

Yes, rof is better, i agree, give Caldari RoF bonus instead of kinetic


Quote:

Actually kiddo you can check my killboard. I've probably lost more missile ships than you've had hot dinners.



Checked. 0 kills 1 pod loss.

Quote:

Irrelevant. Turrets won't hit a moving target with transversal as well or even at all. Turrets can also 'glance' a target for less damage. Boost turrets!



Sure. Learn to control your ship to affect transversal, not just press F1 F2 F3.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.01.28 17:54:00 - [22]
 

The only module i would support is improvement to explosion radius and maybe flight speed, however stats yoy are suggesting are rediculously broken.
Quote:
15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time an

that would result in increasing missile range by 50%. Can i please have a magic nuke that kills people from the different end of a solar system?

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 18:03:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ni'ka

LOL! That's defenetly a point... BS > HAC, BC > HAC. Problem is not in missiles, it's still fitting.



Regardless, missile ships are much better suited to driving off speed tanked ships. I was just throwing that out as an example.

Quote:

Oh wait, is there something missing on Rokh ?? damage bonus! Comparing to +5% ROF on raven...
Checked others ??

Apoc having 700Dps on 60km and 400 at 200 ??



Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue.
As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.

Quote:


exactly... there is no point in training missile line just for one ship... there must be real reason for that.



It's not that their's no point. People have the option and plenty take it. It's just that 'traditionally' missile skills and Amarr don't go well together. QQ more.

Quote:


yes, coz Cerbs are inferior comparing to eagle in terms of long range shooting. And people use mostly more effective ships.



Baww? Range on the Cerb is a non issue for a start. Seeing as you are not advocating instant hit missiles I think we'll let your obvious statement pass. There are plenty of occassions where you WOULD fly a Cerb over an Eagle.

Quote:


Point is that most of Caldari missile ships have KINETIC DAMAGE bonus, not ROF.

Yes, rof is better, i agree, give Caldari RoF bonus instead of kinetic



Most do and Kinetic is one of the better damages to have a bonus on. It's a bone of contention of mine though and not the issue at hand.

Quote:

Checked. 0 kills 1 pod loss.



Hi, you must be new around here.

Quote:

Sure. Learn to control your ship to affect transversal, not just press F1 F2 F3.



Yes, you go ahead and do that.

Ni'ka
Posted - 2010.01.28 19:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ni''ka on 28/01/2010 19:06:19
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer

Regardless, missile ships are much better suited to driving off speed tanked ships. I was just throwing that out as an example.


And Turret deal instant damage on range.
I can live with both.


Quote:
Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue.
As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.


More lolz. If YOU don't fit them, dosn't mean noone does.

Quote:
It's not that their's no point. People have the option and plenty take it. It's just that 'traditionally' missile skills and Amarr don't go well together. QQ more.


All i see is you QQing. With no thinking out of straight lines. Sad.

Quote:
Baww? Range on the Cerb is a non issue for a start. Seeing as you are not advocating instant hit missiles I think we'll let your obvious statement pass. There are plenty of occassions where you WOULD fly a Cerb over an Eagle.


No, i won't. Flyed all hacs, and cerb is last in line i would take into combat.

Quote:
Most do and Kinetic is one of the better damages to have a bonus on.


No it's not.

Quote:

Hi, you must be new around here.



http://www.nspta.net/lacon/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=2539

Isn't that you ??

Quote:
Yes, you go ahead and do that.


I can do that already.

HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
Ugly Naughty Larvas
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.01.28 19:10:00 - [25]
 

Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.

About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.

Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.

Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage.
Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2

And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)

All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".

At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.

If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.

So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.28 19:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.

About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.

Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.

Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage.
Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2

And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)

All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".

At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.

If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.

So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.


All very good. Now compare 10 Torp Ravens to 10 Megapulse Apocs at 10km and the situation is very different.

Horses for courses. Caldari have a long range option for BS slug fests (two in fact). If you are unhappy with the performance of Rails then train lasers or projectiles. It's that simple.

CATYPH
Gallente
Space Plague Fleet
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2010.01.28 19:17:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: CATYPH on 28/01/2010 19:17:53
Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
All turret races have the close-combat weapons. Autocannons, Blasters and Pulse Lasers.
All turret races may use the cheating modules "tracking enhancer" and "tracking computer" making their ships able to deliver DPS a LOT farther. E.g. Vagabond or hurricane with 50km faloff or Apoc with 90km range of pulse lasers and so on.

And what is the range of Caldari "close weapons"? 18km in perfect for the HAMs and Torpedoes without ship bonuses. I'm not even whispering about rockets. This is absolutely inacceptable situation, when piece of scrap, called Tempest, is penetrating shields of glorious caldari battleships from 80 kilometres with autocannons!

Me on behalf of the all true Caldari demands the military scientists immediately invent the following:

Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Computer that will bring the 7,5% to the missile speed, 15% to the missile flight time and 15% to the missile explosion radius. Scripts for flight time and explosion radius.

Brand new full metal shiny module called Missile Navigation Enhancer that will bring the 15% to the missile speed, 30% to the missile flight time and 9,5% to the missile explosion speed.

And these modules must affect all missiles.

All our brothers in arms, even if they belongs to other race should definitely support this call.


Support this topic

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.01.28 20:15:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 28/01/2010 20:17:21
Originally by: Theac Osiris
No. Missiles are not turrets, and turrets are not missiles. They need to be distinct. I agree that some missile types, especially roflkets, need an overhaul, and perhaps do more paper DPS than turrets at the cost of not applying full damage to your typical target without webbing and target painting. This, however, is not the way to do it.


This.

Originally by: HEPBHOE OKOH4AHUE
Rokh is the worst sniper ship in eve regardless of it "overgrid" fire range.

About 400dps at 250 kilometres: missile speed is 7850m/s, so it will take 32 seconds to deliver 2900 points of damage.

Lets take a spherical battle where apoc fighting against raven at 190km snipe-range.

Raven: 190000/7850=24.2seconds to deliver first 2900 damage.
Apoc has instant damage delivery, so we dividing Raven's delivery time with ROF and multiplying with volley damage: 24.2/7.31*2287=7571.2

And, just to make clear that Caldari sucks, we bring here the Rokh: 24.2/5.86*1597=6595 (15% less damage, 25% less tracking speed than Apoc at the same range)

All three battleships have 2 damage mods and 190km optimal range, skills are "All-V".

At last you can see that turret platform has at least 3700 points of damage leg-up against missile boats at 190km range.

If there will be ten Ravens against 10 Apocs at 190km range, then three of them will pop before their missiles will reach the target.

So shut up all of you whining that missiles must be left intact.


Well yeah, missiles make crappy sniper ships. Nobody is disputing that. I hear that if you put up 10 Apocs against 10 Charons, you can really massacre Caldari ships. Thing is, what you propose wouldn't actually change any of this in any way. So, um...good for you?

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.29 09:08:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ni'ka

You have long range ammo. Live with it princess.

So do you. They're called javelins, and let your torps hit at 45km. If you're gonna let the mega use null in your above example, you should have the raven use javelin aswell, and we're back where we started.

Quote:
Raven has 7.5 effective missile launchers, Rokh has 8 effective turrets, I don't see the issue. As for lazors. Well, they are in need of a bit of a nerf IMHO but also eat up cap, regardless that 400 DPS at 200 KM is still less than the Raven and nobody fits 8 tach Apocs anyway.

Erm, yes they do.

I do think caldari suck, but it's not because of these reasons.
1. Close range missile systems are fine, BUT, the close range caldari ships pretty much have something else they're lacking. For SR hacs, they're slow, for RR BS gangs, 3/4 races are perfect for armour tank while the last can make do as it while only 2/4 can shield tank well, and the others simply can't pull it off. Therefore, RR BS gangs always rely on armour, where caldari can just barely make do (before you mention it, yes, the drake can be fitted to be very effective at close range, but even that roughly matches the other racial BCs). Even if you do manage to get a pure minmatar/caldari gang, tackle is an issue.

2. For long range, rails simply don't put out enough dps to be as effective as other races, and when sniping, you generally need to be able to kill a target QUICK before he has time to realize he's being targeted and warp out, so missiles don't work for 2 reasons: 1) If you shoot the primary, it will be dead/warped out before you hit and 2) if you shoot the secondary, they get an advance warning that they'll soon be primary and can warp out before all the turret BS that really can kill him before he can warp locks.

So, what can be done? Well, for close range, XL shield extenders to match the 1600mm plates would free up slots for tackle. For long range, the only thing I can really see working is to greatly reduce flight time, but in return boost velocity so that range stays about the same. That way missiles will be able to deliver the quick damage that is required for that gang type, and the thing making them different would instead be the tracking system. Caldari can't really change their chance of hitting or how much damage they do, but they can do damage to targets that turret ships of their class can't track at all. In return, if the turret ship maneuvers properly, it can get in a position where it does full damage against that moving target while the missile ship still get a reduction.

crimson fire
Posted - 2010.01.29 10:54:00 - [30]
 

Have you lost your marbles?


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only