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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
If you are thinking of a 'lone wolf' sort of a ship, then Black Ops BS isn't it. It's a ship that needs a gang, and more a quite specialized gang. If you have this, they're pretty neat though.


I think it's somewhat sad that the best that can be said for them is "If you have a super specialized gang and tactics, they're pretty neat".

-Liang

Aphoticus
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:34:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Dirt Nap Squad


Covert Recruitment.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:35:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: James Lyrus
If you are thinking of a 'lone wolf' sort of a ship, then Black Ops BS isn't it. It's a ship that needs a gang, and more a quite specialized gang. If you have this, they're pretty neat though.


I think it's somewhat sad that the best that can be said for them is "If you have a super specialized gang and tactics, they're pretty neat".

-Liang


Why is that?

They are not supposed to be solo pwn mobiles, or super gang ships.

Black Ops BSs are pure support ships for covert gangs.

All the specialization your gang needs is covert ops cloak, thats it.

Tactics is still open to whatever covert shisp oyu bring, be it bombers or recons.

It is limited in that way, sure, and teh black ops themself might be a tad expancive, but the fule and ranges are good imo.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:46:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: James Lyrus
If you are thinking of a 'lone wolf' sort of a ship, then Black Ops BS isn't it. It's a ship that needs a gang, and more a quite specialized gang. If you have this, they're pretty neat though.


I think it's somewhat sad that the best that can be said for them is "If you have a super specialized gang and tactics, they're pretty neat".

-Liang


You could say the same of dreadnoughts, but they're pretty popular. I mean, lets face it, dreads are pretty worthless general purpose ships. But when what you need is a dread, then nothing else will do.

It's the same with black ops ships IMO.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:53:00 - [35]
 

I guess the biggest problem I have is the super specialized part. I've looked (with alts) and tried to find people that actually use Black Ops... and even been in corps/alliances that had Big Plans for using them. What actually happened? Well, one or two bridges (ever) for super marginal gains.

My overall rating for blackops is that they have great potential in circumstances rare enough that they're pretty much entirely theorycraft. Yes, when you "need" a BO to do something, you "need" the BO and nothing else will do. However, given the specialty and difficulty of putting your fleet together, it's entirely questionable if the narrow goal you "need" a BO for is even worthwhile or reasonable. Mad

-Liang

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.01.19 00:36:00 - [36]
 

While BO need tweaking they should NOT be "fixed" by giving them a covert cloak, that really would create a Pandora's box. It's too overpowered and will create havoc everywhere.

A BO's role is to jump&bridge and, possibly, support a bit on location, make it good at that and perhaps denerf their stats a little bit but that should be all.

Sa'Shena
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.01.19 01:00:00 - [37]
 

I don't see why Black Ops ships should be punished twice for being Covert Cyno Bridges. For one, they can only Bridge for Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers, Covert T3 Cruisers, Blockade Runners and Force Recons. Altogether not a bad idea since they represent exactly the sort of sneaky stuff you need for its titled "Black Ops".

However the fact that it can only Bridge those vessels AND it costs significantly more to do so than with a conventional Bridge is over the top. The ship caters to a very, very small subset of vessels and yet it cannot effectively bridge for even Medium sized gangs without several Blockade Runners following it around to provide it with the fuel needed, even if the Black Ops sacrifices its combat functions to bring along extra fuel for Bridges.

If you ask me, the best way to make Black Ops more appealing would be to reduce the fuel cost to Bridge for Covert Ships. Getting the gang into and out of system is the main idea of the ship after all. If they simply made it so that the Jump Drive on the Black Ops would use a fair chunk of fuel (this would come with a reasonable boost to its dismally small Jump Range) while the Bridge didn't, you would have a ship that could easily operate a few systems over, providing actual combat support while also being able to jump into and out of a combat site -without- bringing its own pack of Logistics -just to do its job-.

Von Kretschmer
No Trademark
Posted - 2010.01.19 01:03:00 - [38]
 

They don't need a cov ops cloak.

Besides bridging, they're useful for quick ganking ratters in busy systems or getting a few extra guys in between well scouted systems. It's niche for sure, but it's one of those things in game that just never gets old Wink


Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.01.19 06:21:00 - [39]
 

The only reason why you guys dont want them to have a covops cloak is because then it will be easier to gank ratters in 0.0. Admit it you all are a bunch of sissy carebears...lol

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.19 06:23:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Kenpotchi
The only reason why you guys dont want them to have a covops cloak is because then it will be easier to gank ratters in 0.0. Admit it you all are a bunch of sissy carebears...lol


I actually don't care if they have a covops cloak. Its nothing more than a mobile stargate to me. I'd much prefer double the bridge range and about much lower bridge/jump costs. YARRRR!!

-Liang

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.01.19 06:41:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kenpotchi
The only reason why you guys dont want them to have a covops cloak is because then it will be easier to gank ratters in 0.0. Admit it you all are a bunch of sissy carebears...lol


I actually don't care if they have a covops cloak. Its nothing more than a mobile stargate to me. I'd much prefer double the bridge range and about much lower bridge/jump costs. YARRRR!!

-Liang


/signed

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.19 07:28:00 - [42]
 

Quote:
For one, they can only Bridge for Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers, Covert T3 Cruisers, Blockade Runners and Force Recons.

And that isnt enough? Really some people here are not getting how useful bridging ships is, why besides BO only the most expensive ships in game could do it. (That is not saying they cant use some boost, but not a cov ops cloak which will just make them being used solo alot more).

I see them often used, and just by that they can be used they spread fear: Are you really going to try to get that rapier with 4 people when he can drop a BO gang on you? Or from yesterday, why worry about a single red moving through pocket in a cov ops ship, that was until he dropped 6 ships or close to that on one of our freighters (which failed considering the freighter was in dockign range). But the ability to 'teleport' a small gang, or a complete SB fleet which does terrifying dps, to that lonely cov ops/recon ship is very strong.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2010.01.19 07:33:00 - [43]
 

Black ops is not a ship you want to fly on your main. It is just mobile very short range high fuel cost jump portal that can cloak. Use it to launch bomber attacks in the 5 or so jump radius around your current location.

Unless you absolutely need to be cloaky cloaky take carrier instead and if you must fit a cloak on it. Fill it with replacement bombers even and you are better off than dragging the black ops around. Cost is approx the same afterall.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2010.01.19 12:12:00 - [44]
 

Black Ops have a very narrow role. Jumping enemy fleets who have not scouted far enough to find your black ops fleet.

Dirt Nap Squad is one group that uses them all the time. It took months but we finally managed to bait and wipe their black ops fleet out and they left curse after that. I think they still do black ops stuff somewhere else. On a side not their ship fittings are horrible.

But that doesn't matter to much because you're only going to hotdrop someone with thing low dps expensive covops kind of ships when you know that you a going to win. Doing otherwise would be stupid because other kinds of fleets will have higher (DPS+EHP)/Cost ratios.

Flying a black ops fleet involves a lot of boredom waiting for someone with a cyno to find a target. It requires alot of work to get the fleet together with the right ships and it can still go wrong if the target does somthing like instapop your cyno ship.

Furthermore any large alliance is going to have titans. Titans can also fill in the mobile jump bridge role but they reach farther and have no restriction on ship classes. IF your alliance has titans having a black ops ship is next to useless.

And Black Ops ships are nothing more than jump bridges. They have lower EHP, DPS and tank than their t1 counterparts. Their inabilty to warp cloaked means they aren't any more survivable or sneaky than a t1 BS would be with a cloaking device.

I would not recomend training for Black Ops.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.19 14:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
For one, they can only Bridge for Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers, Covert T3 Cruisers, Blockade Runners and Force Recons.

And that isnt enough? Really some people here are not getting how useful bridging ships is, why besides BO only the most expensive ships in game could do it. (That is not saying they cant use some boost, but not a cov ops cloak which will just make them being used solo alot more).


You appear to be quoting Sa'Shena well out of context. Sa'Shena was not complaining about what the Black Ops is limited to bridging in, look again:

Originally by: Sa'Shena
However the fact that it can only Bridge those vessels AND it costs significantly more to do so than with a conventional Bridge is over the top. The ship caters to a very, very small subset of vessels and yet it cannot effectively bridge for even Medium sized gangs without several Blockade Runners following it around to provide it with the fuel needed, even if the Black Ops sacrifices its combat functions to bring along extra fuel for Bridges.


Sa'Shena was complaining about the fuel costs and the amount of fuel they view as being necessary (and excessive) for effective operation.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.01.19 15:27:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: AFK Cloaker

Stop following me. Shocked

Belle Tristesse
Posted - 2010.01.19 16:20:00 - [47]
 

Never really used one. But I thought i put on my theory hat. As an MM pilot once said, I have a scenario. We are in low sec. Hostile Vindicator sits on station. Hostile Vindicator aggresses bait ship. 20 bombers jump through gate. Vindcator deagresses. Bombers are in still in warp. Bombers land good deeps but Vindi docks. Sad face. No X-Type lootz for you.

Scenario 2....

Tasbard
Posted - 2010.01.19 17:11:00 - [48]
 

Black Ops seem to work quite well:

Dirt Nap Squad

Burn Eden

A combined 45000 kills. Both corps specialize in black ops battleships with a healthy dose of SBs, Recons, and even cloaky t3s. So. WTF are you people talking about? Even the alliances have finally gotten in on the action and are starting to field black ops fleets. Wake up. Youre behind the times. Dont post because you have an opinion, post because you have experience.

Achura Model
Posted - 2010.01.19 23:25:00 - [49]
 

BO gangs are nice for hotdropping on pirate camps. You need a covert or stealth bomber as a cyno, Drake as a bait, and a gang. That's all. Even if they would have scouts in all systems arround it won't help them...

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.01.19 23:28:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Tasbard
Black Ops seem to work quite well:

Dirt Nap Squad

Burn Eden

A combined 45000 kills. Both corps specialize in black ops battleships with a healthy dose of SBs, Recons, and even cloaky t3s. So. WTF are you people talking about? Even the alliances have finally gotten in on the action and are starting to field black ops fleets. Wake up. Youre behind the times. Dont post because you have an opinion, post because you have experience.


Give those corps their credit, they've used black ops to good effect.
But that's not really the question, is it?
I mean, MOST ships in EVE, you can make a good thing of. The 'bad' ones, are the ones that most of the time, you'd be better off flying something else.

Personally, I can see the niche of black ops as mobile bridges - and it's a valuable role, in and of itself.
Even if you have titans, you still get to deploy off a covert cyno, into cynojammed space, and can drag a ship along with you that can use gates and dock and stuff.
Maybe not a big niche, but ... big enough for me.

The other problem with them though, is ... well, are they effective to field as 'ships'? I mean, lets bear in mind that they do:
Around 2x the DPS of a bomber. More EHP, less in space mobility and no covert cloak.
They cost about the same amount as a carrier - possibly more, given you can actually insure carriers for sensible money. (Although granted, fighters are an uninsurable risk on a carrier)
A gang of them costs as much as a mothership - would you have been better off with the mothership, and maybe a bunch of stealth bombers instead?

*shrug*. Hard to say.

IF you ignore the bridgyness, how do they rack up? I can't think of many scenarios where I'd commit a Widow on the field, simply because ... the kind of fight where a Widow would outperform a Manticore is the kind of fight you don't really want to be dropping black ops into - they're fragile and slow by BS standards.

I think they do have a valuable niche as bridging engines, but they could be so much more. Make 'em on a par/slightly better than tech one BS, and people might just start using them because they _do_ give some additional performance for the price tag.
On the flip side though, do you really want more people playing jumpdrive shenanigans through 'safe ish' 0.0?


Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.01.19 23:56:00 - [51]
 

Mine is theory craft for sure. Aside from being a mobile jumpgate that I am ready to field any time my corp decides to get into ships I can provide a jump for... I believe it would also make for rather delicious bait to get some escalating battles with. So that is why I have mine, no complaints for CCP, only my corp.

When I hear back ops I think of No Trademark and Dirt Nap, never heard of those other guys.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.20 00:39:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Mine is theory craft for sure. Aside from being a mobile jumpgate that I am ready to field any time my corp decides to get into ships I can provide a jump for... I believe it would also make for rather delicious bait to get some escalating battles with. So that is why I have mine, no complaints for CCP, only my corp.

When I hear back ops I think of No Trademark and Dirt Nap, never heard of those other guys.


You've never heard of Burn Eden? Shocked

-Liang

achoura
Posted - 2010.01.20 01:14:00 - [53]
 

BE use a plated arazu (usually alt) to grab afew people then cyno in 8-10 bops (passive, no rep) and gang them. Effective yes, but it's as effective as a bunch of plated bs jumping people on a station. It's no the covert gang mover ccp "ment" to build in that respect, but it is sadly the most effective way to use them.

It's a shame really. I love my redeemer but it's gimped by the chronic fuel use.

Exactly how many timehigher than a titan is it....

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2010.01.20 02:57:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Mine is theory craft for sure. Aside from being a mobile jumpgate that I am ready to field any time my corp decides to get into ships I can provide a jump for... I believe it would also make for rather delicious bait to get some escalating battles with. So that is why I have mine, no complaints for CCP, only my corp.

When I hear back ops I think of No Trademark and Dirt Nap, never heard of those other guys.
We've been using them longer than anyone but Burn Eden is the most successful. DNS mostly just bridges SBs, not sure if they hotdrop them directly but we have way more kills (lulz Battleclinic) than them anyway.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.01.20 04:12:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 20/01/2010 04:12:43
Originally by: Kenpotchi

My proposed boosts
- Extend the jump range
- Extend the bridge range
- Reduce the fuel cost to to jump and bridge



-yes, wouldnt hurt
-yes, wouldnt hurt either
-yes, though simply increased fuel bay would do it

Originally by: Kenpotchi

- Increase there fighting capabilities



-no, their fighting capabilities are sufficient for their role

Originally by: Kenpotchi

- Give them a cov ops cloak



-no, covert ops cloak isnt a magical fix-them-all module. the improved cloak is already sufficient.

Dsan
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.01.20 04:16:00 - [56]
 

seen it used on CTA's for bombers... they do really make it easy to get 25+ bombers into a laggy system and have them ready to bomb the **** out of hostiles

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:32:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Although i can agree that range is ****ty and can use a boost.


The range is fine. It's a BS-sized jump portal and shouldn't have the range of the Titan-sized jump portal. What is not fine is the absurdly high fuel consumption. It takes roughly 60 times the fuel to portal a Rapier a given distance through a Covert JP as through a Titan's JP. That limits the BO capabilities much more severely than the 4.5 ly max range.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:20:00 - [58]
 

Furb Killer, I swear I can see your avatar start to turn red, whenever cloaks are talked about. LaughingLaughing


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