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Equus
Nemesis Nation
Posted - 2010.01.18 17:18:00 - [1]
 

I was thinking about training up to get myself into a Black Ops but I then realized they can't use the covert ops cloak which put a bit of a damper on my plans. I never hear anyone talking about the ships much less seen one, so are they pretty much the black sheep of the covert ops field or are there people out there using them effectively?

Personally I would love to see them get the ability to mount a covert ops cloak... Razz

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 17:31:00 - [2]
 

Used right the covert bridgning thing is pretty damn mean.

Black Ops, while having a very nich role, does it well, and is the only ship that can go it.

Incipus
Posted - 2010.01.18 17:42:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Used right the covert bridgning thing is pretty damn mean.

Black Ops, while having a very nich role, does it well, and is the only ship that can go it.


Yea, but I notice the lack of a actual useful example of the ship being used. Sure, it can bridge covert ships(very very short distances at very very high fuel cost)..Why is this all that useful again?

Cameron Freerunner
Posted - 2010.01.18 17:50:00 - [4]
 

Dirt Nap Squad

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.01.18 18:41:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Incipus
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Used right the covert bridgning thing is pretty damn mean.

Black Ops, while having a very nich role, does it well, and is the only ship that can go it.


Yea, but I notice the lack of a actual useful example of the ship being used. Sure, it can bridge covert ships(very very short distances at very very high fuel cost)..Why is this all that useful again?


It'd be more useful if local were delayed. But as it stands it still has a niche role in that the covert cyno does not show up on the overview and thus your covert gang can get into a system where a battle is taking place and setup say, a bombing run on the enemy fleet and be quite effective.

Sumelar
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:05:00 - [6]
 

Cover Ops cloak, local as an intel tool and the extremely limited fuel capacity/extreme fuel costs for jumping other people pretty much kills the whole black ops idea.

You're basically just an expensive jump portal, and since recons and covert frigates can use the best cloak they can avoid gatecamps anyway. And since they can do that, jumping randomly into a system where the people know you're there immediately via local renders the covert jump portal useless anyway.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:05:00 - [7]
 

I get the impression that if Local Chat was "fixed", the Black Ops class would allow one to farm many more tears than is presently possible.

Twisted Evil

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:16:00 - [8]
 

Local isnt broken. Black ops can also bridge to cyno jammed systems, and i have seen them being used by AAA and UK. And FFS dont give those things cov ops cloaks, just make sure they arent worse than their t1 counter parts for fighting. But the habbit lately of: when in doubt, give it cov ops cloak, is getting stupid.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:18:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Local isnt broken. Black ops can also bridge to cyno jammed systems, and i have seen them being used by AAA and UK. And FFS dont give those things cov ops cloaks, just make sure they arent worse than their t1 counter parts for fighting. But the habbit lately of: when in doubt, give it cov ops cloak, is getting stupid.


There is nothing wrong with cloaking. HTFU.

-Liang

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2010.01.18 19:36:00 - [10]
 

Two Words: Burn Eden
BE

Sumelar
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Local isnt broken. Black ops can also bridge to cyno jammed systems, and i have seen them being used by AAA and UK. And FFS dont give those things cov ops cloaks, just make sure they arent worse than their t1 counter parts for fighting. But the habbit lately of: when in doubt, give it cov ops cloak, is getting stupid.


What's the point of lumping it in with ships that can use a better cloak? You're basically removing the cloaking advantages of the smaller ships just by having a black ops along. How exactly would things be so terrible if a black ops could use a covert cloak?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:14:00 - [12]
 

You mean besides having a BS warping arround cloaked? Why not also give HICs cov ops cloaks while we are at it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:46:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
You mean besides having a BS warping arround cloaked? Why not also give HICs cov ops cloaks while we are at it.


I'm not sure it'd really make a big difference for you, tbh. You already complain about BS's just being able to fit cloaks at all.

-Liang

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 20:50:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 18/01/2010 20:50:20
I do? Please enlighten me where I am doing that (your own happy place does not count).

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
I do? Please enlighten me where I am doing that (your own happy place does not count).


Oooooh, maybe in the "Nerf AFK Cloakers" thread from last month?

-Liang

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:20:00 - [16]
 

Maybe reread that.

Varg Tepes
Caldari
PURgE Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:23:00 - [17]
 

Just in for the pillowfight Laughing

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Maybe reread that.


Oh, you're right - it's only ridiculous for someone else to fit a cloak in your space. God forbid that your overfarmed **** 0.0 systems might not be more profitable than mission running because of NRDS and political enemies deliberately attacking your supply chain. Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:41:00 - [19]
 

I thought we were talking about cloaks on BS, but guess somewhere we changed topic. And since when is cloaking up and hanging afk in space deliberately targetting supply chain? (Not to mention the entire goal of dominion was to get space more crowded)

AFK Cloaker
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:43:00 - [20]
 


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
I thought we were talking about cloaks on BS, but guess somewhere we changed topic.


I was just heading you off, considering your well publicized dislike of anything cloaky because it ****s with your ISK/hr.

Quote:
And since when is cloaking up and hanging afk in space deliberately targetting supply chain? (Not to mention the entire goal of dominion was to get space more crowded)


Again, if they were *just* hanging out AFK, they'd be utterly harmless and you'd just need to HTFU. But since they aren't just hanging out AFK, they're deliberately attacking your supply chain. And WRT Dominion getting space more crowded.... it has been largely successful. I very rarely encounter anyone that isn't ninjaratting outside of station systems anymore.

-Liang

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:52:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 18/01/2010 21:52:32
So everyone who isnt afk is deliberately targetting supply chain? So if i go missioning in motsu i am targetting AAA supply chain?

And god forbid we do what CCP wanted, more people in space, and make more in 0.0 than high sec.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.18 21:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Local isnt broken. Black ops can also bridge to cyno jammed systems, and i have seen them being used by AAA and UK. And FFS dont give those things cov ops cloaks, just make sure they arent worse than their t1 counter parts for fighting. But the habbit lately of: when in doubt, give it cov ops cloak, is getting stupid.


I said "fixed" with quotation marks for a reason. The reason is: I recognise the subject is one open to much debate.

Has any member of Paxton Federation ever used a Black Ops? Rolling Eyes

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
So everyone who isnt afk is deliberately targetting supply chain?


Don't be so dense. Your complaints revolved entirely around neutrals and reds in your home systems AFK cloaking you, and between the fear of attacks and the actual attacks they were making your 0.0 less profitable than running missions in highsec.

Quote:
So if i go missioning in motsu i am targetting AAA supply chain?


No, but if you were at war with them and AFK cloaked Motsu you might be.

Quote:
And god forbid we do what CCP wanted, more people in space, and make more in 0.0 than high sec.


Lots of people have no problems making more in 0.0 than highsec. I think it's already been well discussed why you guys don't. Basically, CCP made a system and you guys aren't really following it. So when you do something contrary to the system and it doesn't yield optimal results... come to the forums whining for a better system? Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:07:00 - [25]
 

How is that relevant? But the answer is yes. I am also nowhere claiming that black ops cant use a boost, however imo that should be just a boost that their fighting abilities are at least as good as their t1 counterparts. I disagree that they are useless (I see them way too often used for them to be useless, and also i see the ability to bridge to any system, also when cyno jammed, and the ability to bridge in the first place and to jump which is besides black ops only a titan/capital thing as very strong. Although i can agree that range is ****ty and can use a boost.

However what i disagree with is giving it a cov ops cloak (which liang used to go so terribly offtopic), we dont need a BS with cov ops cloak. Yes that means it cannot warp with its friends to the target, so it has to warp in few seconds later.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:09:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 18/01/2010 22:47:05

EDIT: Actually, forget it. Maybe this will help you.

Z infinity
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 18/01/2010 22:47:05

EDIT: Actually, forget it. Maybe this will help you.



Cement? Confused

Kenpotchi
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:07:00 - [28]
 

Yes the Black Ops do sux pretty bad. For what they are they are not cost effective. At the price of 5x the price of there T1 counter parts these boosts would be well worth me training for one and buying one.

My proposed boosts
- Extend the jump range
- Extend the bridge range
- Reduce the fuel cost to to jump and bridge
- Increase there fighting capabilities
- Give them a cov ops cloak

Not saying that they need all of these things but one or two of them would be nice.

These are just my opinion. FLAME ON!!!

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:14:00 - [29]
 

You are correct - they are in all ways worse than their tech one counterpart, in practically every possible way, and are more expensive to boot.
Until you factor in their capability to a) jump and b) jump portal.

If you're not doing either of these things, then another ship will be a better tool for the job. If you are, then only a black ops will do - whilst you can jump with a carrier, and bridge with a titan, it's only the black ops that can do so to a covert cyno - which lasts a minute (30s on a recon) and doesn't show in local, and works in cyno jammed systems. And besides, Titans are a bit more expensive, hard to acquire and can't dock.

That's all there is to it really. There are people using them effectively - I'm pretty sure I've seen some Burn Eden carrier kills in black ops for example. There are more that are using them effectively as mobile jump bridges, but those you won't see on kill mails often.

If you are thinking of a 'lone wolf' sort of a ship, then Black Ops BS isn't it. It's a ship that needs a gang, and more a quite specialized gang. If you have this, they're pretty neat though.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.18 23:25:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Incipus
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Used right the covert bridgning thing is pretty damn mean.

Black Ops, while having a very nich role, does it well, and is the only ship that can go it.


Yea, but I notice the lack of a actual useful example of the ship being used. Sure, it can bridge covert ships(very very short distances at very very high fuel cost)..Why is this all that useful again?



Avoid gate camps, sudden strike in a new system ontop of a target.

You fail to see the real benfit from this; Want to kill an enemy, like i.e. an Orca, bridge in right on top of them without needing to go through a gate and alerting local population. They will see the spike but then its already too late. Gate camp up? Jump around. Your only real threat/danger is going for a bait target.

You do not need to jump more then one or two system for this to be useful, and a covert gang can get across any enemy space unhindred and really undetected.

UK have used this tactic latly to good effect for instance.

Sure its expencive, but for such an awesome ability it should be.

As for teh Balc Ops BSs themself, they mihgt need bigger fuel bays etc etc, but just have a covert transport along with you, not hard to do.

If you wanna do some awesome stuff you really need to dish out the isk, but living in 0.0 gives you lots of easy isk anyways :)



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