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Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:04:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Voxinian on 12/01/2010 13:12:52
Edited by: Voxinian on 12/01/2010 13:05:22
Hi there,

I am playing this game for a just over a week now and aside from some minor points i really like EVE. So I was checking out the subscription page and see that I am being charged almost double because I live in europe (if i decide to extend my account).

Now I understand that i have to pay 19% VAT and even though I dont like that (obviously)that is acceptable and I know that it is something EVE can't do anything about.

I just googled the monthly subscription fee for non europe users and they have to pay $14,95 a month. I as a european am being charged 14,95 EURO's!

If I add 19% VAT to the non european subscription fees i don't get anywhere near the 15 Euro's I am being charged. As 1 US Dollar is 0,68 Euro cents. If I add the VAT i come to 10,20 Euros and not 14,95 Euros.

So my question is, Why am I am being discriminated by EVE for being European. Like i said, i have no problem with the VAT, but the fact that EVE decides to charge more then just the VAT compensation is something I do not understand... Well I do,... it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

I am not even beginning about the one time 5 Euro registration fee wich seems a bit bogus to me aswell...as I have a verified buisness paypal account and it does not take administration time to verify my account.



# Europe


Cost/Month

Total Cost
1-month-plan
14.95

14.95
3-month-plan
12.95

38.85
6-month-plan
11.95

71.70
12-month-plan
10.95

131.40

# Outside Europe


Cost/Month

Total Cost
1-month-plan
$ 14.95

$ 14.95
3-month-plan
$ 12.95

$ 38.85
6-month-plan
$ 11.95

$ 71.70
12-month-plan
$ 10.95

$ 131.40

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:15:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 12/01/2010 13:20:41
Originally by: Voxinian
Now I understand that i have to pay 19% VAT

Actually I believe you're paying Icelandic VAT, which is 24.5%.

Originally by: Voxinian
I just googled the monthly subscription fee for non europe users and they have to pay $14,95 a month.

You had to Google it? It's listed on this site (in the FAQ, no less). Moreover, the EUR and USD rates are listed side by side.

Originally by: Voxinian
If I add 19% VAT to the non european subscription fees i don't get anywhere near the 15 Euro's I am being charged. As 1 US Dollar is 0,68 Euro cents. If I add the VAT i come to 10,20 Euros and not 14,95 Euros.

You assume the that USD price is the 'right' price. I posit that the EUR price is the 'right' price, that the VAT should be deducted from that and that that would give a 'fair' USD price. In other words, you're not paying too much, everyone else is paying too little.

Originally by: Voxinian
it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

CCP is an Icelandic company. Last I checked, Iceland was an European country. I'm not sure how American commerce fits into this...

Originally by: Voxinian
I am not even beginning about the one time 5 Euro registration fee wich seems a bit bogus to me aswell...as I have a verified buisness paypal account and it does not take administration time to verify my account.

It's not a registration fee, it's the license fee for running one copy of the software.


Edit: I'd give an easy solution to all the 'problems' you're whining about, but I'm sure someone more helpful than myself will be along shortly.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:28:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 12/01/2010 13:29:04
Edited by: Serpents smile on 12/01/2010 13:28:29
You can easily get GTC's from one of the official GTC sellers where you pay only USD with your paypal account.
Shattered crystal is one of them
http://www.evetimecode.com/is an other one.

Second one makes a verification call to see if you are who you claim to be the first one not, i think.


Dex Timor
Valklear Guard
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:28:00 - [4]
 

Hi,

I'm from Europe aswell. I'm absolutely fine with CCP's pricing politics. And here is why:
- Unlike "some well known US based gaming platform" CCP had this pricing policy right from the beginning.
- 14.95 is cheap for the service you get (free expansions)
- It's possible to buy Game Time Cards (GTC) from an american shop and save money that way.
- It's possible to choose a longer billing period, where you pay for several months in advance and save money that way.

I'm also under the impression that Iceland could use every cent they can get right now. Oh, and I almost forgot that it's possible to buy PLEX ingame if you manage to save up some isk.

Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:33:00 - [5]
 

I was under the assumption that this game origanted from the USA, thanks for correcting that.

Quote:
You assume the that USD price is the 'right' price. I posit that the EUR price is the 'right' price, that the VAT should be deducted from that and that that would give a 'fair' USD price. In other words, you're not paying too much, everyone else is paying to little.


I look at the facts, and the fact is that i have to pay almost double compared to non europeans. They simply paste/copied all the US fees and changed the dollar sign with a euro sign (or vice versa). And im my country VAT is still 19%, not 24,5.

Quote:
It's not a registration fee, it's the license fee for running one copy of the software.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up aswell. I think I already payed that then when I bought this first month through Steam.com.

Still though, I will think twice now before deciding to extend my subscription. It's a BIG diffence having to pay 131 USD a year or 131 Euro's a year.

Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:41:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile
Edited by: Serpents smile on 12/01/2010 13:29:04
Edited by: Serpents smile on 12/01/2010 13:28:29
You can easily get GTC's from one of the official GTC sellers where you pay only USD with your paypal account.
Shattered crystal is one of them
http://www.evetimecode.com/is an other one.

Second one makes a verification call to see if you are who you claim to be the first one not, i think.




Thanks for pointing that out, if that compensates the price difference then the problem is solved. I probably will not extend my subscription through the EVE website so this could be the solution. I just checked the links, but both sites are down atm. I will bookmark them.

As I mentioned, I am new so I was not aware of this alternate payment method.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.01.12 13:53:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 12/01/2010 13:53:55
Originally by: Voxinian
I was under the assumption that this game origanted from the USA, thanks for correcting that.

Assumption is the mother of all.. (well, you know what I mean).

Originally by: Voxinian
I look at the facts, and the fact is that i have to pay almost double compared to non europeans.

It seems your math skills have failed you. Others are paying USD 15 excluding VAT; you're paying EUR 15 including VAT. Let's set VAT at 20% for ease of calculation, and the USD at EUR 0.69 (according to omniscient Google). In that case you're paying the equivalent of 14.95 * .8 / 0.69 = 11.96 / 0.69 = 17.33 USD.

That's right, the difference is USD 2.33 at a VAT rate of 20%. With a VAT rate of 24.5%, the difference drops to USD 1.33. Tell me, which one of those two values is "almost double" USD 15?

Originally by: Voxinian
And im my country VAT is still 19%, not 24,5.

European tax regulation is hopelessly complex. In some cases some companies in some countries may charge the VAT of the country where they are operating from rather than the VAT of the country where the customer is living. There's been some debate as to whether or not that goes for Iceland/CCP; there are multiple treaties each with regulations and exceptions to those regulations. If you have a year of free time, try figuring it out yourself.
I did the calculations above with two values to account for this vagueness.

Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2010.01.12 14:05:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Voxinian
Still though, I will think twice now before deciding to extend my subscription. It's a BIG diffence having to pay 131 USD a year or 131 Euro's a year.
You are aware that CCP has no control over the exchange rates of currencies?

So, as poeple pointed out: make use of it and buy GTCs from US retailers.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.01.12 14:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Nika Dekaia
So, as poeple pointed out: make use of it and buy GTCs from US retailers.


Actually GTCs are only cheaper if you're using the shorter subscription plans.
6 GTCs at USD 35 each would cost EUR 144.90
A subscription for a year is only EUR 131.40

Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 14:22:00 - [10]
 

Yes mathwise including the VAT its not almost double, I was looking at the raw figures and then $131 is a big difference compared to 131 Euro's. You may think think I am just whining, but seeing those differences stings.

I am not a big fan of commerce as you have noticed, because commercial companies (in general) try to get as much as they can out of the consumer, when I saw the price difference I got fired up. Your responses calmed me down though!

I will look at the alternative ways to extend my subscripting so that I can pay it in USD.

Sorry for introducing my self on the forum with a rant :)

dtyk
Posted - 2010.01.12 14:58:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Voxinian

I am not a big fan of commerce as you have noticed, because commercial companies (in general) try to get as much as they can out of the consumer)


You know, that's kinda the definition of a business, if they didn't try to make money, they'd be a charity or a non-profit organization...

Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 15:11:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: dtyk
Originally by: Voxinian

I am not a big fan of commerce as you have noticed, because commercial companies (in general) try to get as much as they can out of the consumer)


You know, that's kinda the definition of a business, if they didn't try to make money, they'd be a charity or a non-profit organization...



Well, lets not get into a debate about capitalism...that will only get me fired up again lol.
But there is commerce and commerce. Ofcourse I am not against buisnesses making a profit. I am against the milking strategies that a lot of the big commercial companies use. The whole economic crisis we have now worldwide is the result of those milking strategies. As in making profit regardless of anything. Profit is never enough, it needs to be more and more (greed).

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2010.01.12 15:16:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 12/01/2010 15:19:11
Originally by: Estel Arador

Originally by: Voxinian
it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

CCP is an Icelandic company. Last I checked, Iceland was an European country. I'm not sure how American commerce fits into this...



LOL owned... Laughing


Originally by: Voxinian
it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

Posting in a thread where the OP has found a clever way to emorage that I have not seen yet, which is a feat in and of itself.

Srsly, emorage over a couple nickels every month? Are there not more pertinent things to concern yourself with?

It just goes to say, some people will find something to ***** about no matter what.


Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 16:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 12/01/2010 15:19:11
Originally by: Estel Arador

Originally by: Voxinian
it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

CCP is an Icelandic company. Last I checked, Iceland was an European country. I'm not sure how American commerce fits into this...



LOL owned... Laughing



Originally by: Voxinian
it's american commerce at its finest... lest milk the european customers dry.

Posting in a thread where the OP has found a clever way to emorage that I have not seen yet, which is a feat in and of itself.

Srsly, emorage over a couple nickels every month? Are there not more pertinent things to concern yourself with?

It just goes to say, some people will find something to ***** about no matter what.




Not owned, honest mis-assumption.

And this is what companies love to hear from the consumer...its "just a couple nickels"...
ok lets see... couple of dollar extra here times how many european users? All the nickles count up to a nice amount of extra profit.

But again, lets not get into that debate. People have different views and opinions.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.12 16:32:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/01/2010 16:33:47

Quote:
Not owned, honest mis-assumption.


"Honest"? No, you made a ****ty assumption with no basis for the sole purpose of *****ing about the US. That actually is far closer to discrimination than what you're accusing CCP of.
Quote:

And this is what companies love to hear from the consumer...its "just a couple nickels"...
ok lets see... couple of dollar extra here times how many european users? All the nickles count up to a nice amount of extra profit.


Then quit.

There's two options here. If internet spaceships is worth <insert euro sign here> 15 per month, quit complaining

If it's not, then cancel your subscription.

Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 17:28:00 - [16]
 

Ohh starting to love this community already.

Based on the assumtion that EVE was based in the US I wrote what I wrote. This wrong assumtion was corrected after the first reply.

I think I have the right to ask questions and being critical as a consumer.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.12 17:38:00 - [17]
 


Quote:
Based on the assumtion that EVE was based in the US I wrote what I wrote.


Stupid assumption which you had no basis for

Quote:
I think I have the right to ask questions and being critical as a consumer.


Great. Except these are the forums which means you're pretty much talking to players. Also, "Being critical", and "making a stupid whine post" are two entirely different things. This thread was created so you could whine about the evil American company CCP (lol) 'exploiting' European customers, not so you could 'be critical' or get a question answered.

Avo Daith
Public Venture Enterprises
Posted - 2010.01.12 17:56:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Avo Daith on 12/01/2010 17:57:57
As stated, buying USD GTC used to work out much better for me. However since my first year I've paid with ISK (4 years ingame now). Other than the totally free ones (which usually are just trying to bilk you in some other more subtle ways somewhere) Eve is the only game that allows you to continue playing for free.

I've found Eve is the only MMO I can afford to continue with. I'm not working atm, so I have plenty of time to make ISK and very little real life money. Knowing everything I know now I could probably have played for ISK much sooner (plus game time used to be much cheaper then than it is now, isk-wise).

Look at it this way: Free trial: 21 days.
If a friend invites you he gets a free 30 days as well, which he can choose to pass on to you.
You then pay for two months on top of that. That's 60 days, at the average cost of buying a non-MMO game.
I reckon I could have made enough for at least one Plex in that time. That would be another 30 days.

That's potentially 141 days for less than 30 Euros, and still less if you buy from a US retailer. I don't know if you can be totally self sustaining after just 5 months, probably not, but it's well on the way.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2010.01.12 18:05:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 12/01/2010 18:10:23
Originally by: Voxinian

Not owned, honest mis-assumption.

And this is what companies love to hear from the consumer...its "just a couple nickels"...
ok lets see... couple of dollar extra here times how many european users? All the nickles count up to a nice amount of extra profit.

But again, lets not get into that debate. People have different views and opinions.


As has been pointed out more than once in this post, CCP does not control world currency exchange rates, so I suggest you take your problem up with the world's leading economic countries.

I would also highly suggest you at least brief yourself in passing with this or pick up actual academic or professional materials and litany on the subject beforehand. You obviously seem to need conflict instead of resolution as numerous people have already answered the question posted in this thread, so maybe you should seek legal counsel and take this alleged ponzi scheme and/or scam to the highest courts available to you (I by no means endorse this or am seriously implying this).

Good luck.

P.S. When was the last time someone came to your country and emoraged about their native country's currency being worth less in your own country? Ignorance is bliss. Don't they make young children take basic economics in whatever country you live in? I learned this stuff when I was barely knee-high to a grasshopper personally, back when quarters were small fortunes.



Voxinian
Posted - 2010.01.12 18:07:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Quote:
Based on the assumtion that EVE was based in the US I wrote what I wrote.


Stupid assumption which you had no basis for

Quote:
I think I have the right to ask questions and being critical as a consumer.


Great. Except these are the forums which means you're pretty much talking to players. Also, "Being critical", and "making a stupid whine post" are two entirely different things. This thread was created so you could whine about the evil American company CCP (lol) 'exploiting' European customers, not so you could 'be critical' or get a question answered.


Well, you have your own assumptions and opinions and thats fine. I asked why there was such a big difference in fees and added my own opinion to it based on a wrong assumption wich is a very human mistake that everyone makes on occasion. Get over it already. I did not post it "just to whine".

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2010.01.12 18:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Voxinian
I did not post it "just to whine".


Given that your question has been answered by numerous individuals and you continue to ask for us to give you an answer more to your liking, I would say there's a good amount of evidence to the contrary.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.12 19:09:00 - [22]
 

THIS was your question:


Quote:
So my question is, Why am I am being discriminated by EVE for being European.


Firstly, there's no question mark there. Secondly, you're asking "why you're discriminated against". That's very much a whine.


MsValentineWiggin
Posted - 2010.01.12 19:39:00 - [23]
 

You guys are missing the point.

The same clever folks who came up the idea of trying to move players to 0.0 in game with economic incentives decided to try the same thing in RL. Thus, they are economic incentives to leave European Empire and move to the higher risk and reward USA. Naturally, Canada is lo-sec.

It should be about as effective as the in game incentives.

Elizabieta Bathory
Posted - 2010.01.12 19:55:00 - [24]
 

This is my fourth account with Eve online. In my opinion, the game sells itself. Never a redundant moment with Eve

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2010.01.12 20:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: MsValentineWiggin
You guys are missing the point.

The same clever folks who came up the idea of trying to move players to 0.0 in game with economic incentives decided to try the same thing in RL. Thus, they are economic incentives to leave European Empire and move to the higher risk and reward USA. Naturally, Canada is lo-sec.

It should be about as effective as the in game incentives.


I see what you did there Shocked

DevJoe
Posted - 2010.01.13 16:02:00 - [26]
 

just to confirm the only type of gtc you can buy is 60day?

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.01.13 17:17:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: DevJoe
just to confirm the only type of gtc you can buy is 60day?


Correct.

There used to be 30-day and 90-day GTCs, but CCP no longer distributes those. They're still valid though if someone still has one from back when they were available.

Miser Mike
Posted - 2010.01.13 17:23:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Miser Mike on 13/01/2010 17:26:42
Quote:
Quote:
I am not even beginning about the one time 5 Euro registration fee wich seems a bit bogus to me aswell...as I have a verified buisness paypal account and it does not take administration time to verify my account.



It's not a registration fee, it's the license fee for running one copy of the software.


How do you arrive that conclusion? It clearly and explicitly states it is a registration fee.
Quote:
You will be charged an additional 5.00 registration fee with your first payment
It is not applicable to all forms of payment, so it appears highly unlikely it is a license fee.

Dani WH
Posted - 2010.01.13 18:54:00 - [29]
 

I have a question

would be moronic to buy the box edition? afaik its updated to Apocrypha and includes a 60day GTC

I found it for 40 in a local store.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.01.13 19:22:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Miser Mike
Quote:
It's not a registration fee, it's the license fee for running one copy of the software.


How do you arrive that conclusion? It clearly and explicitly states it is a registration fee.


Fine, it's a license registration fee. The EULA states:
Quote:
You may establish only one (1) account for each copy of the Software licensed. If you wish to establish another Account, you must obtain another license for the Software (you may be able to do this by purchasing another boxed version of the Software or from the EVE Online web site http://www.eve-online.com).

So starting an account includes getting a license. If you assume that $15 of the $20 is for a months subscription, the license must be included in the $5 'registration' fee.

Originally by: Miser Mike
Quote:
You will be charged an additional 5.00 registration fee with your first payment
It is not applicable to all forms of payment, so it appears highly unlikely it is a license fee.

It applies to all forms of payment except GTC/PLEX.


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