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Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Ming Ping on 12/01/2010 08:33:06
This post about some lose I had which are not reimbursed by CCP, because they are not shown in their logs. I know that this happens quite a lot, which disturbs me. During pvp its common that you lose some ships, but not during a client failure or server issue!

My feeling tells me that CCP is aware of the fact that the clients/servers got issues and that they simple don't show up in their logs, because that don't know what to do about or don't know that they are there. The thing I don't like is that they blame me for my own lose, which it was in the 3 case I had was not the case. Or they know and don't give a ****, because they know we keep paying them.

I have two eve-online accounts which I always use together. So if my computer crashed of my internet connection is going down, I will notice that immediately.
I lost 3 ships in the past what was by a client/server failure.

1. Sleipnir: some guy can flipped my and we had a fight, this all happened on a station. I couldn't win, because he had neutral repairs, so I dock up an waited till the combat aggression was gone. After the combat aggression was gone, I undock the sleipnir and get concorded. (meanwhile this guy was killed by another player) - 300 mil lose.

response GM's: Your lose got to do with combat aggression, there is not anything shown in the logs.

2.Vargur: I was doing a mission and couldn't tank the mission. So I had to warp out. Client didn't response so I lost the ship.- 2.5 bil lose.

Response GM's: Unfortunately we couldn't find anything in our logs.

3. Sleipnir: I was hanging outside the 4-4 station in Jita, while suddenly: Sleipnir - Sleipnir appears on overview. I switch to my alt and saw that Ming Ping was in a POD in front of the station. The guy who killed her was a war target in a cruiser. My other client was still online and managed to save her 3 bil ISK POD. - 400 mil lose.

Response GM's: Unfortunately we couldn't find anything in our logs.

Since it's the third time this happens, I decided to quit the game after 4 years. I had a really nice time in the game, but I don't like the fact how CCP are threaten their customers.
Feel free to post your experience in this forum.




Navtiqes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:37:00 - [2]
 

People lose ships all the time. Both bug or not, but they suck up the loss and move on. What makes you so special that it's supposed to be a big deal?

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:39:00 - [3]
 

Getting upset over losing an internet spaceship is a sure sign you need to stop playing.....

Lighten up... CCP has a (reasonable) politic to only reimburse if there is a PROVEN fault. If there isn't, there's no reimbursement!

This is realistically the only system they CAN follow as any other politic would ensure they'd be inundated with false reimbursement request.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:41:00 - [4]
 

Lag outside jita 4/4, who could have thought that Shocked


GMs happily reimburse my sisters probes every time they decide to disapear again, besides that my ships have the habbit of not randomly ploding or me expecting them to do that anyway.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:47:00 - [5]
 

The first one is odd but the rest look like lag or desyncs and they don't get reimbursed.
The amount you've lost is immaterial - you chose to risk that amount... The great Maxim applies here - Never fly anything you cannot afford to lose.

Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:48:00 - [6]
 

I believe the reimbursement system fails. Even when you get reimbursed, CCP only gives you back the stuff that is destroyed. Like we can help it that some people may use it for exploits.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.01.12 08:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Getting upset over losing an internet spaceship is a sure sign you need to stop playing.....

Lighten up... CCP has a (reasonable) politic to only reimburse if there is a PROVEN fault. If there isn't, there's no reimbursement!

This is realistically the only system they CAN follow as any other politic would ensure they'd be inundated with false reimbursement request.


I concur mostly.
(Getting upset about something not working as intended when you pay money for it is rather normal.
Sucking everything up has never been a reliable way of getting what you want...)

However the problem is that a player has almost no means of proving that there was a fault/bug/issue on CCP's side.
I wouldn't like my customers to make a meme out of "The logs show nothing - HTFU".

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:02:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Lag outside jita 4/4, who could have thought that Shocked


GMs happily reimburse my sisters probes every time they decide to disapear again, besides that my ships have the habbit of not randomly ploding or me expecting them to do that anyway.


Is it normal for sisters probes to vanish? i had 5 disappear when i reloaded.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:17:00 - [9]
 

I have lately had several times when recalling them only one came back, others were gone (and no reconnecting to lost probes didnt help). Petitioned it and got them both times within a day back in my hangar. (Even one more than i lost the first time).

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:18:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 12/01/2010 09:19:43
I recently lost my fully loaded cloaked hauler because my computer crashed and I returned too soon ( uncloaked ) and got killed in a big gate camp.

It hurts a bit and then you move on, I didn't even petitioned it, because it was my own system that crashed and I feel it is my own responsability.

Moral of the story :
Don't fly what you can't afford to loose, and make sure your own computer and internet connection runs flawlessly.

Kakarotte
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:20:00 - [11]
 

If they would change the reimbursment policy, i bet anyone would just pull the plug when they are about to loose a ship, and claim it was a client fault that made them crash and loose the ship.

They current system may be not perfect (there is no perfect system). But it is really good.

I lost once a ship to a server side lag problem. I tried to warp out, but the ship did not respond. After loosing the ship i filled a petition, and i got the ship back, becauce the lag was caused server side (it was in their Log). But if it happen on your side, or your internet provider made a fault, you will not get anything back. Just becauce there is no way to prove it. CCP cant see it in the logs, and you have no way to prove it. And so we are back to the "pull the plug".


And loosing a ship while "hanging outside 4-4 station in Jita" and having war with other corps, .... stupid but well deserved. Twisted Evil

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:26:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 12/01/2010 09:36:44
Originally by: Ming Ping
Since it's the third time this happens, I decided to quit the game after 4 years. I had a really nice time in the game, but I don't like the fact how CCP are threaten their customers.
Feel free to post your experience in this forum.



Awwwwambulance! Rolling Eyes

You "played 4 years" lost 3 ships, 2 due to your own lack of insight and now you are quitting?
You're trolling, right?

Lemme see, I lost my 1st BC ever, in a mission due to me trying to rep a rat. Concordokken, I was.
Lost a faction fit BS in a mission because I had a DC, when I came back my drones where targeted by rats and I was warp scrambled, without drones..... poof!
Lost a Cov-ops because I thought I could kite the rats in an exploration site. Even before I could get to speed I was webbed then scrammed. End of that story.
I went into a Cosmos site with a faction fit BS, I couldn't tank it and got killed. Worse was, I lost the key to that place so I couldn't even try to get some of my dropped stuff back.

And i lost many many more ships, some even in PvP engagements.
And you know what, it's all part of the game.

Suck it up, keep your head up straight act like a man not a whining dribbling 12 year old.




TL;DR: HTFU! Twisted Evil

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:31:00 - [13]
 

The logs showed how you were killed and that you didn't react. The logs however showed no failure on client side that could cause your situation. So it was either client side or somewhere an issue with your connection. Which cannot be verified via the logs and without verification via logs, no reimbursement.

The logs show everything tamper proof alright. And none of it is a justification for your reimbursement. I am sorry about your loss and wish you a quick recovery.

Lt Forge
Pilots Of Honour
Aeternus.
Posted - 2010.01.12 09:57:00 - [14]
 

Well, the 4 titans and gazillion dreads that PL&CO lost few weeks ago didn't got reimbursed either, so why would CCP reimburse your little ship?

T'is just pixels.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:05:00 - [15]
 

I know the feeling as I had a nicely deadspace fitted Ishtar that got concordokkened in a plex a few years ago when my drones decided to engage the wreck I was salvaging. The logs showed nothing and obviously nothing of value survived.

Since you are quitting, can I have your stuff that didn't blow up?

Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:09:00 - [16]
 

The thing is that I can life with the fact that you lose ships during pvp, but if you lose something that is the course of a server/client that is something I won't accept.
Also ISK-ies isn't the problem, the whole thing is that you want some support. If you buy a radio in a shop and it is broken and sellsmans tells you that it was your own failt, you raise the finger aswell and never buy something from them again.

Zacharias Berg
Minmatar
Filthy Little Secret
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:31:00 - [17]
 

Well then .. i am surpised nobody asked you yet but .... your stuff can i have it ?

Kakarotte
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:40:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Kakarotte on 12/01/2010 10:40:13
Originally by: Ming Ping
The thing is that I can life with the fact that you lose ships during pvp, but if you lose something that is the course of a server/client that is something I won't accept.
Also ISK-ies isn't the problem, the whole thing is that you want some support. If you buy a radio in a shop and it is broken and sellsmans tells you that it was your own failt, you raise the finger aswell and never buy something from them again.


Ok, again. How can you make sure it will not get abused if they reimburse anything? All they have is your word that you got lagged out (may it becauce of your computer or becauce your provider had problems).
And what if i have a 5 year old computer, that is not state of the art for eve anymore? I have an old PC as well (5600FX), and trust me, its really a pain if i would like to do missions on this machine. And i would loose a ton of ships becauce i got "lagged" out. Would i deserve a reimbursement when i loose a ship with this old machine? No, i would not even dare to ask for one (my fault).
So is it with you. It was NOT CCPs fault that you lose these ships. Their log show, that all was fine with server/client side. Maybe you should ask your provider for a reimbursement of these ships, becauce they had a short backout? Or your computer store, becauce you had lag becauce of the old parts in your computer? I bet they really will help you. Else you can raise your finger to them, and tell them you will buy their service from someone else if they dont Laughing

All they can reimburse are destroyed items and ships if they can see in their logs that it was their fault that you lose this ship.


And for your analogy:
If i am the salesman, and you come to me with a radio that was hit by a sledge, i would as well laugh, and tell you that this is not a case for the guarantee. And i honestly would not care if you think you deserve a reimbursement for this. No matter how high you raise your finger.


Edit: Damm, Zacharias Berg beat me Sad

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:45:00 - [19]
 

Lag
Losses caused due to disconnection as a direct result of a server node drop or an unannounced server downtime may be reimbursed pending investigation by, and at the discretion of, a GM. Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed.

I think also whining means you don't get anything back either

Navtiqes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2010.01.12 10:52:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Navtiqes on 12/01/2010 10:55:58
Originally by: Ming Ping
The thing is that I can life with the fact that you lose ships during pvp, but if you lose something that is the course of a server/client that is something I won't accept.
Also ISK-ies isn't the problem, the whole thing is that you want some support. If you buy a radio in a shop and it is broken and sellsmans tells you that it was your own failt, you raise the finger aswell and never buy something from them again.
It's a game. It's not real. It's playtime. You don't own anything in the game. MMOs are by law a leasing agreement. You're leasing virtual fun. CCP can't be expected to babysit everyone so stop getting yourself into situations like above or get the hell out.

The only mystery here is how you got into REPO. I thought they were chill guys. Flew a little bit with them when I was in Noob Mercs and didn't hear any whining then. Unless I got corp names confused.

zombiedeadhead
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:10:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ming Ping
Edited by: Ming Ping on 12/01/2010 08:33:06




I don't like the fact how CCP are threaten their customers.







CCP are well known as a bunch of griefers tbh. And well done to the Vexor pilot, nice kill.

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:28:00 - [22]
 

didnt you know that the log was a made up thing to save them time from petitions

Doshia
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:32:00 - [23]
 

I have never had an issue with this and the only ship I ever wanted to be reimbursed due to a bug was indeed reimbursed.


I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:39:00 - [24]
 

Yeah, I've had the odd bug where some guy gets me a GCC and, though I wait it out (and then some, almost an hour at the time) before undocking, only to be BBQd by the sentries.
Apparently the guy I aggressed had continued to get himself in fights and, though he had died 3 systems away a few minutes before I undocked, his continued aggressive acts kept my GCC active.

Got reimbursed for that.

Another situation; we attack a trio and manage to BBQ two of them, third warps away. 45 minutes later I get a popup window saying I had a sec status loss for the destruction of his ship (22 jumps away!). I wasn't even on the killmail. :(

Got my sec status adjusted after petition.

Targeting a hostile sitting on a gate (war target in highsec)... he jumps and, instead of terminating, my targeting then switches to the gate. OFC, hot-prepped guns = CONCORDOKEN.

GM laughed, noted the known bug (long ago patched), and reimbursed my ship.

And then, after killing a chimera in lowsec (the death of which seems to have lead to a massive node crash that, after a 20 minute desync while my carrier marrily wandered away from the station and get pwned by the fighters that chimera set on me ... despite the fact it was a wreck) and loosing my carrier to node death I filed a petition with a highly detailed explination of the events that transpired (23 ships were all 'stuck' outside the station by this crash, many of which died to sentry fire)...

CCP said "Sorry, logs show nothing." despite a shutdown & restart of tranquility.
Interestingly, about 1/3 of the pilots destroyed in the same instance got their ships back.


I guess it all comes down to the GM you're stuck with. If GM Cloudy ever answers a petition expect only one resolution: "LOL, yer fracked!" because he's about the most inept GM I've ever encountered (and I've dealt with a few in 6 years).

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:49:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Kakarotte
Edit: Damm, Zacharias Berg beat me Sad


Actually I did beat you both. Laughing

Sumelar
Posted - 2010.01.12 11:57:00 - [26]
 

Not being able to tank a mission in a MARAUDER is not CCP's fault.

Zacharias Berg
Minmatar
Filthy Little Secret
Posted - 2010.01.12 12:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Kakarotte
Edit: Damm, Zacharias Berg beat me Sad


Actually I did beat you both. Laughing


Yep, you did Laughing
Would you mind sharing ?

Ming Ping
Minmatar
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2010.01.12 18:51:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: I SoStoned
Yeah, I've had the odd bug where some guy gets me a GCC and, though I wait it out (and then some, almost an hour at the time) before undocking, only to be BBQd by the sentries.
Apparently the guy I aggressed had continued to get himself in fights and, though he had died 3 systems away a few minutes before I undocked, his continued aggressive acts kept my GCC active.

Got reimbursed for that.

Another situation; we attack a trio and manage to BBQ two of them, third warps away. 45 minutes later I get a popup window saying I had a sec status loss for the destruction of his ship (22 jumps away!). I wasn't even on the killmail. :(

Got my sec status adjusted after petition.

Targeting a hostile sitting on a gate (war target in highsec)... he jumps and, instead of terminating, my targeting then switches to the gate. OFC, hot-prepped guns = CONCORDOKEN.

GM laughed, noted the known bug (long ago patched), and reimbursed my ship.

And then, after killing a chimera in lowsec (the death of which seems to have lead to a massive node crash that, after a 20 minute desync while my carrier marrily wandered away from the station and get pwned by the fighters that chimera set on me ... despite the fact it was a wreck) and loosing my carrier to node death I filed a petition with a highly detailed explination of the events that transpired (23 ships were all 'stuck' outside the station by this crash, many of which died to sentry fire)...

CCP said "Sorry, logs show nothing." despite a shutdown & restart of tranquility.
Interestingly, about 1/3 of the pilots destroyed in the same instance got their ships back.


I guess it all comes down to the GM you're stuck with. If GM Cloudy ever answers a petition expect only one resolution: "LOL, yer fracked!" because he's about the most inept GM I've ever encountered (and I've dealt with a few in 6 years).


So far they only give me no, which sucks

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.01.12 19:30:00 - [29]
 

So far I only had 1 loss which made me really angry... In the time that I wasn't that rich and playing faction warfare...

I sucked, ok, I didn't check local, but I was in high sec of my faction... They warped into my mission, screwed me over which took them a few minutes and looted me and warped off. Tis' was all while they should theoretically blown to bits by the npc militia... They never came, later we managed to re-do how to lock the AI of the npc militia to not follow, I sent the entire procedure step by step to the devs and asked for reimbursement, never got it... Why? Because they them selves didn't manage to recreate the problem, although it was easy as pie - it was done every single day in gallente space and late also in caldari space (although not as often).

I understand gms should never believe a word a player says before he's proven right (guilty untill proven not), but hey, if it was proven that it was bending the rules... It really should have been reimbursed and all would have been ok.

I quit faction warfare since it was a waste of isk and my game time, although it was fun before the explotion of the bug got a daily issue. That was after about a month and a half of replying to their further question and final silance. It took them like 2 months to reply to the last petition response with printscreens attached and they asked me if I could check if the issue is still existant... It was then when my nerves really got ripped... How stupid can the gms be - they continue a conversation, I finally write to them that I quit FW and 2 months later they still think I'm in it, don't check if I can re-do the bug, nothing.

Never got the ship back, nor even a sorry for the bug that made me lose my ship.

CCP will NEVER admit that a player found a bug... Because it's not a bug, it's a feature... Like shadow training which was a feature, untill they found out how to get rid of it and they said it was a bug all the time. PR crawling on the floor...

Oh well, now 0.0 warfare is a bit more fun, at least I know that when I lose a ship I lose it because I'm flying in dangerous space and I'm asking for it.

FarosWarrior
Amarr
Pure Dutch Damage Corp
Care Factor
Posted - 2010.01.12 20:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sumelar
Not being able to tank a mission in a MARAUDER is not CCP's fault.


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