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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2010.01.09 06:15:00 - [1]
 

That merry time is again upon us. After the wonderful chiming of the Christmas bells it is now the season for the sounds of hot lead [or the ordnance of your preference] to hit the fragile shell of the exhumer and mighty groans of frustration to erupt from the throats of miners who see their 150/200 million investment being reduced to really charmingly rendered debris amidst the harsh, vast beauty that is the New Eden scenery.

As ever when the light of such dire times [for miners] reaches us many tactics are mentioned that will help alleviate the situation:
- tank the Hulk/Mackinaw
- fly a fleet of ships that will be able to tackle/destroy the attacker before they can do their deadly chore
- align the ship so that warp out is easier [which is actually never a bad idea]
- some brilliant scheme to increase the effectiveness of exhumers in huge numbers

At any rate the miner's game is livened up by having their experience raised to that of level 5 missions while hanging in ye randomme mining belt every time they go out there to eke out an existence in the EVE demesne.

The chortling attacker greatly appreciates the fine irony of calling a miner in a defenseless ship a carebear while they attack them with a 100% chance of victory. Risk versus reward, is it not, my wonderful ganking friends?

A remedy against this commendable game mechanic which I rarely, if ever, see mentioned is not of tactic deployment which will rarely work for the lone miner / small mining corp, but rather basic economics.

We have seen the prices of Hulks rise by up to 125% post Dominion deployment, and they are now actively hunted so as to inflict massive losses for trivial cost. Fun for all. I wonder what will happen to the prices of Exhumers post "Hulkageddon". I would be very surprised if the price was not raised even further.

Now, in any working economy the cost of doing business drives the price of goods. In real terms the risk of mining has become so expensive that it has to be reflected in the cost of goods produced. Therefore the only sensible approach to covering the cost of mining is to sell the product at a price point which reflects the real risk endured while acquiring it. For that reason I propose selling Tritanium at 100/1000 isk/unit. If one producer does that with a small amount of product, they will price themselves into oblivion. If enough producers do it, they will increase the average price of Tritanium and they will be able to recuperate the cost of their loss sooner. Tritanium need not be the only product affected, the price point is just a suggestion.

The proposition is for the overall raising of the price of basic bulk goods to reflect the cost of acquiring the bulk good. It is sound economic practice to be properly compensated for the risks endured. It is also a form of warfare for those to whom warfare does not come easy. Pain becomes more bearable when it is shared by as many people as possible.

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.01.09 07:58:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Abulurd Boniface

- tank the Hulk/Mackinaw (EHP tank it)
- fly a fleet of ships that will be able to tackle/destroy the attacker before they can do their deadly chore (Doesn't really work)
- align the ship so that warp out is easier [which is actually never a bad idea] (Yes)
- some brilliant scheme to increase the effectiveness of exhumers in huge numbers (I'm not sure how that would help avoid being ganked)


Or the most bloody obvious choice....

Use a covetor?

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2010.01.09 10:08:00 - [3]
 

When a storm hits, most ships will usually seek shelter in a safe harbor. Consider this 'Gankfest' a storm and all mining ships should stay docked till the storm is over.

Direstorm
Posted - 2010.01.09 10:43:00 - [4]
 

Dunno about you guys but my first instinct is "This is a wonderful opportunity to bait all the ganksters out there."

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.01.09 11:08:00 - [5]
 

The Goonswarm "jihad" against Hulks had a negligible effect on their prices as shown in one the Economic quarterly reports (or w/e its called), so its safe to expect the same results from Hulkageddon.

Trit will never hit 100 ISK. A rifter would take 2 mil in trit to make, and the Armageddon would be over 450 million ISK in trit.

Dragonmede
Posted - 2010.01.09 11:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
The Goonswarm "jihad" against Hulks had a negligible effect on their prices as shown in one the Economic quarterly reports (or w/e its called), so its safe to expect the same results from Hulkageddon.

Trit will never hit 100 ISK. A rifter would take 2 mil in trit to make, and the Armageddon would be over 450 million ISK in trit.


It certainly can hit 100 ISK, or even higher. All it will take to do that is for the miners to agree on an embargo on raw materials. If everyone who mines simply refused to sell below that mark then the price would be forced to rise. At This point if my Raw Materials don't sell at that price, then they can sit in the hanger and accumulate.
The price will go up if there is a shortage as well.

ugh

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.01.09 12:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dragonmede
All it will take to do that is for the miners to agree on an embargo on raw materials. If everyone who mines simply refused to sell below that mark then the price would be forced to rise.


All that needs to happen is for all people to stop wanting power and goods, and if everyone would just simply keep to that earth would be a fantastic place, all the animals would be our friends and the polution wild simply stop.


Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2010.01.09 14:26:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Abulurd Boniface on 09/01/2010 14:27:15
Originally by: Artemis Rose

Trit will never hit 100 ISK. A rifter would take 2 mil in trit to make, and the Armageddon would be over 450 million ISK in trit.


I'm not saying that I think Tritatinium should cost 100 ISK/unit, I'm saying that if the real cost of mining goes up because the essential component, the space frame, is wantonly destroyed in large numbers, it is entirely reasonable to have that fact reflected in the cost of goods. Hulks are targeted because many people do not train/do not know to properly defend them [and even then a Hulk will not withstand sustained attack]. I believe this is a concerted effort to drive up the cost of Hulks.

At any rate, the "mine in a Covetor" argument is a false one, made by someone who does not understand the difference between mining in a Covetor and mining in a Hulk. Forcing a miner to revert to a Covetor is in fact forcing them to drastically reduce their production output.

At any turn the miner is allowed to be inconvenienced and attacked without any reasonable hope of defending themselves unless [and even then it's not enough] it is a tanked ship, which again reduces the ship's output. I can accept that, this is EVE after all, but then the rest of the community in turn is cordially invited to bear the increased cost of goods sold.

If miners merely put fairly large amounts of ores/minerals on the market at price points that they did not reasonably hoped to actually sell the product at, it would drive up the average cost of ores/minerals, which would allow them to recuperate the losses they are made to suffer. And not "to get back at the gankers", which is a childish argument, merely to reflect the basic economic reality that a profit cannot be made if the costs cannot be recuperated.

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2010.01.09 14:41:00 - [9]
 

Junk reprocessors won't price fix with you.

People have unbelievably huge stockpiles of minerals, they are waitng for price fixing, they will undercut you for guaranteed turnover and massive profit.

Macro miners run 8-10 clients 24hrs a day. Say they manage 10 million isk an hour per account then they are making 2.5 billion every 24hrs, the loss of a few 100 mil ships is nothing to them.

Mining is a dead profession unless you have big gangs or you cheat. Sorry about that but there it is.

Hamano Walker
Posted - 2010.01.10 00:37:00 - [10]
 

I wish you good luck. The simple fact is, on both the Hulk killer side and the Hulk killed side, that 90% of the game doesn't follow the forums and has a large view that ends at their corporation.Destroying hulks works en masse because a relatively small number of people can do a relatively large amount of damage. Moving prices requires almost 100% merchant agreement. If everyone in Jita is selling Trit for 100/unit, someone will buy it for 2 in Hek and haul it themselves to sell at 3.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.01.10 01:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
For that reason I propose selling Tritanium at 100/1000 isk/unit. [...] If enough producers do it, they will increase the average price of Tritanium and they will be able to recuperate the cost of their loss sooner.
Hm. Let me run that through a translator.
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
Hi, my name is Abulurd Boniface. I don't understand what I'm talking about at all, because I fail to include, in my long-winded, whiney, and sarcastic rant, the simple fact that people are greedy and will undercut each other no matter what. I also fail to grasp the true scope of Eve's economy, and how even 1,000 miners deciding to raise their prices - for no other reason than misplaced spite - will have zero effect on the price of minerals.
Ah, there. That's better. Now he makes sense again. Very Happy

Mara Tessidar
Posted - 2010.01.10 03:45:00 - [12]
 

I'm willing to bet this WILL have an effect on Hulk prices, for several reasons.

A: Hulkageddon has already destroyed every 30th hulk in existence. Now, consider the population from whence the real fraction is derived: is it really every 30th hulk in existence, or more like 1 in 15 hulks that are in high sec? Is the spoon bending, or are you merely changing how you perceive the spoon?
B: Hulk prices are at a very unstable point thanks to Dominion's production cost changes.
C: The Butterfly Effect.

Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2010.01.10 13:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
r.
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
Hi, my name is Abulurd Boniface. I don't understand what I'm talking about at all, because I fail to include, in my long-winded, whiney, and sarcastic rant, the simple fact that people are greedy and will undercut each other no matter what. I also fail to grasp the true scope of Eve's economy, and how even 1,000 miners deciding to raise their prices - for no other reason than misplaced spite - will have zero effect on the price of minerals.
Ah, there. That's better. Now he makes sense again. Very Happy


I appreciate the blade of sarcasm, however clumsily wielded it may be. I have stated, in so many words, that the idea behind my proposal is not engendered out of spite [and I have also stated that I accept the reality of New Eden, specifically so that you would not turn around and make that my claim (an effort I know to be futile, people will read what they will, I do feel I have to make it)] but rather to more accurately reflect the cost of goods sold.

When the price of producing the products goes up, is it not entirely reasonable to reflect that through increased retail prices of those products? Am I making a wildly exotic point that has no basis is reality and for which there is no historical precedent? Is my understanding of market forces so poor that products sold at price point [X] will -always- be sold at price point [X] even if the cost of producing them is now at [2X]?

Did you fail to understand that my general idea was to raise the average price of ores/minerals so that they would more accurately reflect their cost and help miners afflicted by this adventure to more easily recuperate their losses? Is that an assumption that is so wildly beyond the pale as to merit being sneered at even though it feels like being struck with warm lettuce?

Do share your thoughts. I'm sure they will be entertaining.

Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Posted - 2010.01.10 14:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
I appreciate the blade of sarcasm, however clumsily wielded it may be. I have stated, in so many words, that the idea behind my proposal is not engendered out of spite [and I have also stated that I accept the reality of New Eden, specifically so that you would not turn around and make that my claim (an effort I know to be futile, people will read what they will, I do feel I have to make it)] but rather to more accurately reflect the cost of goods sold.

When the price of producing the products goes up, is it not entirely reasonable to reflect that through increased retail prices of those products? Am I making a wildly exotic point that has no basis is reality and for which there is no historical precedent? Is my understanding of market forces so poor that products sold at price point [X] will -always- be sold at price point [X] even if the cost of producing them is now at [2X]?

Did you fail to understand that my general idea was to raise the average price of ores/minerals so that they would more accurately reflect their cost and help miners afflicted by this adventure to more easily recuperate their losses? Is that an assumption that is so wildly beyond the pale as to merit being sneered at even though it feels like being struck with warm lettuce?

Do share your thoughts. I'm sure they will be entertaining.


raising the price of tritanium needs more market manipulation than you might think of. a 0.5 increase in price/pu is so hard to achieve, you're better off toying with tempest's market in metropolis right now.

Besides, you're babbling about something you don't comprehend. Covetor market started skyrocketing a week before the hulkageddon, mind you.

Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.01.10 15:19:00 - [15]
 

finally hulk bpo starts making more isk!

Tral Arak
Posted - 2010.01.10 17:42:00 - [16]
 

How to get your own security;

1. Mine in your hulk with a tank.
2. Get someone in a rookie ship to shoot you.

Concord arrive to guard your ship meaning 1.0 security protection even in 0.5.

Droog 1
Posted - 2010.01.10 17:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tral Arak
How to get your own security;

1. Mine in your hulk with a tank.
2. Get someone in a rookie ship to shoot you.



3. Receive a warning from a GM for exploiting.

Laraella Drougin
Posted - 2010.01.10 18:23:00 - [18]
 

Or you could just mine in nullsec so that your escorts can engage first, mebbe?

Also, for those not afraid of sec status losses, have escorts in insured T1 ECM boats with lows full of locking time decreasing mods jam the gankers when they warp in. The CONCORDOKKEN that hits your escorting guys will give you 1.0 protection if the gankers then decide to go ahead, and its not very easy to call an exploit, as the main point is to jam them so only half of the gank goes ahead, and you survive it due to insufficient alpha. (Also, you may get some tears to drink in local)

Vincent Death
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2010.01.10 19:17:00 - [19]
 

As a suggestion, could you not mine in someones missions in a hub? That should offer some protection for you.

1ggz
Posted - 2010.01.10 19:47:00 - [20]
 

Only half of the tritanium on the market comes from mining, along with the other lower end minerals.

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2010.01.11 08:56:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Kuolematon on 11/01/2010 08:56:10
Originally by: Tosi
finally hulk bpo starts making more isk!


Stige will be pleased .. oh wait Laughing

Jones Bones
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2010.01.11 15:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Tral Arak
How to get your own security;

1. Mine in your hulk with a tank.
2. Get someone in a rookie ship to shoot you.

Concord arrive to guard your ship meaning 1.0 security protection even in 0.5.



Concord doesn't shoot gankers until after they fire. So:

1. A single guy in an arty tempest alphas you.
2. 6 guys in arty thrashers alpha you.

skye orionis
Posted - 2010.01.13 07:18:00 - [23]
 

Instead of staying docked, go mining in mission spaces, your own little private belt without can flippers or suicide gankers.

Sure, they could scan you down, but why bother when there's a bunch of hulks in the belts nearby.

Bodega Cat
Posted - 2010.01.13 18:14:00 - [24]
 

You can sell yours for 100, and I will tell you that I will too, but secretly, I'm going to sell mine just for 99.

See what happens?

Travesty T
Posted - 2010.01.13 20:11:00 - [25]
 

I have a Hulk mining here in Alikara. I was Hoping some one would come pop it. Merida Simplon is their name. happy hunting.

Marik Kil'Vanya
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.01.13 20:35:00 - [26]
 

Hehe, and wonder what's going to happen Rolling Eyes

Abortica Inbortaliss
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.01.13 22:49:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tral Arak
How to get your own security;

1. Mine in your hulk with a tank.
2. Get someone in a rookie ship to shoot you.

Concord arrive to guard your ship meaning 1.0 security protection even in 0.5.



this is fail and doesn't work i've popped alot of ships under concord's nose anyone who thinks concord will defend them before 5 cruisers pop a hulk is just not well informed.

Patso Tappaja
Naurunappula
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2010.01.14 07:43:00 - [28]
 

I was told that 45%-50% minerals come from missions.

/confused

Haraukiae Youik
Posted - 2010.01.15 11:30:00 - [29]
 

So there are no hulks killed in 0.0? Is this a "tarp" project(tarp 2?) and does this mean that 0.0 cannot sustain itself and that its pilots also have run out of "hard" targets and need "soft" targets. Perhaps CCP could seed some more "NPC loves you" targets so that 0.0 pilots would have something to do?; perhaps NPC that attack those dainty Player Owned Structures?

Winterjack
Posted - 2010.01.15 11:44:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Abortica Inbortaliss
this is fail and doesn't work i've popped alot of ships under concord's nose anyone who thinks concord will defend them before 5 cruisers pop a hulk is just not well informed.


yeah if 5 cruisers aren't enough, next time they'll come with 5 bships. When cost is not an issue because you'll get paid back, there's no limit to the amount of resources you can spend in a raid.


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