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Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:15:00 - [1]
 

Ok so with current skills and fit last night on a level 4 mission I was doing about 770ish volley damage to a mordus gigimar (or whatever). Could not break his tank and to top it off the fokker kept outrunning my drake when i wounded him, and I was dragging this mission well into the 2AM hour.

Desperate and tired, I tried charging him , opening fire only when I finally closed the 40km mark - hoping if I started to break him again and he attempts to escape he'd be in range much longer for me to beat on. Well turns out doing so broke his tank rather quickly....I'm guessing charging your target descreases missle flight time = increased (percieved?) dps! confirm/deny?

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:17:00 - [2]
 

Confirm, but with a NH.

Usually whack the escorts from range, then close in to finish off the BS.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:23:00 - [3]
 

NPCs have a certain chance per missile group per some not-so-clear-how-it's-determined time interval to spawn a "NPC defender" missile, shooting down one missile from the group, thus reducing your DPS.

If you're very far away, the NPC might actually have two instances of a chance of spawning NPC defender missiles ; at normal ranges, it's usually just one chance roll ; if you get close enough however, you might actually be too close to even trigger any NPC defenders AT ALL, so you deal your actual theoretical damage.

Also, if you group your missiles, instead of the chance of triggering 7 sets of NPC defenders (one for each individual missile, which usually translates into 2 or 3 missiles getting shot down), you only get a chance to trigger one (so most of the time you actually lose noe, and sometimes lose 1 of 7), so you might want to start running L4 missions with grouped missiles from now on... even if it means overkill on the smaller NPCs.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:44:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: 000Hunter000
Confirm, but with a NH.

Usually whack the escorts from range, then close in to finish off the BS.


whats NH?

And yes, I learned real fast to kill off support first, especially frigates. My skill allows me to tank level 4's only if I'm not webbed, I cannot tank it stationary.

Originally by: Akita T
If you're very far away, the NPC might actually have two instances of a chance of spawning NPC defender missiles ; at normal ranges, it's usually just one chance roll ; if you get close enough however, you might actually be too close to even trigger any NPC defenders AT ALL, so you deal your actual theoretical damage.

Also, if you group your missiles, instead of the chance of triggering 7 sets of NPC defenders (one for each individual missile, which usually translates into 2 or 3 missiles getting shot down), you only get a chance to trigger one (so most of the time you actually lose noe, and sometimes lose 1 of 7), so you might want to start running L4 missions with grouped missiles from now on... even if it means overkill on the smaller NPCs.



Had not thought about the defenders. Since that mission was taking so long last night I actualyl experimented with 7grouping my launchers and sequence-launching them. To me it seems the dps is exactly the same, just one is burst and one is steady dps. Now I'm thinking burst = pvp (wow mentality) and wont affect pve so much. Then again grouping might help overwhelm npc repping but after observing several BS kills last night I honestly couldnt tell you which way was better for pve, in the end I went back to grouping, less buttons to press at the expense of less pretty afk missioning. Sad

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.01.06 16:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Had not thought about the defenders.

Most of the larger BS NPCs have a 25% chance of "NPC defender spawn". That's 25% of your DPS lost on average if you fire launchers ungrouped.
If you group all 7 launchers, you have a 25% chance of losing 1 out of 7 missiles in the group, so a 3.57% DPS loss.

I'd call that a pretty significant difference, between -25% DPS and less than -4% DPS.

NH = Nighthawk (Caldari Field Command Ship, a T2 Ferox, Drake-like style... rather said, the Drake is a NH-like BC).

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Had not thought about the defenders.

Most of the larger BS NPCs have a 25% chance of "NPC defender spawn". That's 25% of your DPS lost on average if you fire launchers ungrouped.
If you group all 7 launchers, you have a 25% chance of losing 1 out of 7 missiles in the group, so a 3.57% DPS loss.

I'd call that a pretty significant difference, between -25% DPS and less than -4% DPS.

NH = Nighthawk (Caldari Field Command Ship, a T2 Ferox, Drake-like style... rather said, the Drake is a NH-like BC).


That's true if the defender launch chance is computed once per group. If the defender launch chance is computed on the number of missiles in the group, then only close distance will reduce the efffects of defenders. Is there any official word on the subject? The devblog about grouping doesn't tell.



Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:21:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
That's true if the defender launch chance is computed once per group.

My practical tests seem to indicate so, and testing it for yourself just to be sure should not prove difficult at all.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.01.06 19:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: stoicfaux
That's true if the defender launch chance is computed once per group.

My practical tests seem to indicate so, and testing it for yourself just to be sure should not prove difficult at all.



It's definitely once per group. Getting close range is definitely a good way to boost missile DPS with low skills. Also, never in four years have I seen an NPC launch two defenders at a single missile.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:06:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 06/01/2010 20:18:05
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 06/01/2010 20:10:24
Firing a second defender at the same missle sounds alot like finding your missing keys in the second to last place you looked. Neutral

Thanks, Akita T, you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject and some of the dps increase may have been from decreased defender missiles on group and closed distance. Also, I fly these things highly inebbriated so I take what I think I saw with a grain of salt but...

I remember not being able to break the 30%-50% shield bubble, actually running out of missles trying, I had to leave to restock to come back and finish the mission (lol!) to once i started firing as I closed I broke his tank in like 5 or 6 volleys (EDIT: or something relatively ridiculously low).

Also is it possible I just caught him on a bad rep cycle?

Ceti Lomax
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:12:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ceti Lomax on 06/01/2010 20:13:50
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Ok so with current skills and fit last night on a level 4 mission I was doing about 770ish volley damage to a mordus gigimar (or whatever). Could not break his tank and to top it off the fokker kept outrunning my drake when i wounded him, and I was dragging this mission well into the 2AM hour.

Desperate and tired, I tried charging him , opening fire only when I finally closed the 40km mark - hoping if I started to break him again and he attempts to escape he'd be in range much longer for me to beat on. Well turns out doing so broke his tank rather quickly....I'm guessing charging your target descreases missle flight time = increased (percieved?) dps! confirm/deny?


It's all about DPS with NPCs ... volley damage doesn't count for much. A Drake doing 400 DPS should cruise though any lvl 4 Mordu mission. The Drake does the best kind of damage against mordus (kinetic), and has the best natural resists for Mordus (again kinetic). Group your launchers to reduce the effect of defender missiles.


Scout Ops
Red Federation
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:27:00 - [11]
 

try flying something else.

Drake is not the only available ship on this game... Rolling Eyes

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:41:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/01/2010 20:45:44

Missiles have HP. Defender missiles remove some of that HP. The less HP a missile has, the less damage it does (or none if the HP falls to 0). Grouped missiles follow the same rule, with all the missiles in the group combined into a single big missile. This mechanism is also why smartbombs work against missiles (though it is hard to get the timing right to hit a missile).

I seem to recall a devblog on this when it was introduced.



Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:42:00 - [13]
 

Thanks for the advice Scout, I'm barely skilled enough to drake tank level 4's, lemme just find out how long I need to cross train to hop in someone elses BC/BS YARRRR!!

Admrl Cain
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.01.07 03:17:00 - [14]
 

You're doing something very wrong if you cant fit your drake to do more than 1800 raw damage per volley every 6 seconds or so AND tank any level 4 mission. My skills aren't even that great and I've never lost a drake or failed to break a tank in a level 4, whether Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar or Gallente based. I'd highly suggest posting your fit and skill set - I'd be glad to help you.

Btw: Yes, with defenders in the mix, ALWAYS group your missiles into a single stack of 7 launchers otherwise you'll lose a lot of your DPS to those defenders. Shame they dont work as well in REAL pvp ;)

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2010.01.07 03:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
I'm guessing charging your target descreases missle flight time = increased (percieved?) dps! confirm/deny?


Other than getting close enough to render defender missiles ineffective, getting closer doesn't give a DPS increase in an of itself. If it causes the NPC to act differently, such as slowing down or trying to MWD away, that would affect it, but if their speed stays the same your damage will too.

CCP Applebabe

Posted - 2010.01.07 05:30:00 - [16]
 

Please continue the discussion in Ships & Modules channel.


 

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