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Mealtrom
Posted - 2010.01.05 07:36:00 - [1]
 

So I'm building a super high end mission runner and I've come to a point where I have to decide between sentries and heavy 2s. In the past I've always just used ogre 2s to auto-pwn rats while I sip a gin and tonic but I figured I should go for an active setup on this one, and since sentries are all the rage I'm trying to build them in.

The problem is I'm still not sure I like sentries. While the sentries have better DPS on paper they take significant resources off your ship to run well and are a major pain in the ass. Switching one set for long range then changing to gardes for DPS is at least as irritating as waiting for ogres to chug around. And to get gardes to any sort of acceptable range would take 2 t2 scope chips and two fedy omnilinks, which with the sentry damage aug takes all my rigging space. I'm thinking as long as I'm spending ridiculous amounts of money (and I am) I may as well spring for a flight of augmented ogres and use the extra midslots and rigging to shore up my tank and missile DPS. Especially since I enjoy salvaging as I mission and have an afterburner fit.

So what do you think, any strong arguments one way or the other?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.05 07:51:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 05/01/2010 07:53:22
Augmented drones suck. Their split damage ruins one of the key advantages of drones – that you can match them perfectly against the enemy's weakness.

The switching of sentries is a matter of seconds, compared to the vast oceans of time required for Ogres to lumber off to the next target. The only heavy drones I'd advise for missions are Berserkers for those in-your-face Angels battleships.

You do not need numerous scope chips and omnilinks. You need (maybe) two of the latter, and even then mainly to improve the tracking – the range is just a bonus. For targets farther away, you choose other sentries (don't be blinded by the Gardes' damage – it's not universally the best choice). If you want to use rigs, sentry damage rigs will help you far more.

Canute Minealot
Posted - 2010.01.05 12:17:00 - [3]
 

Super High End Mission runners dont use much drones.
When i see a corp mate with his Vaguar i just can dream about the DPS against my Domninx and whatever Drones.

But when you want to stay with your Dominix/Rattlesnake you should think at Sentrys.
Depend on the Rats you fight Sentrys are mosttimes better then any Hvy.
You can snipe groups of rats 70km away with Warden, even Frigs which are coming to you. And dont forget Sentry doing instant damage, hvy drones need to fly to them first.

Only against Angels when the BS come at very close range (below 15km) to you, sentrys got heavy trouble to kill these, then Hvy drones are a better choise.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.01.05 12:38:00 - [4]
 

With sentry drones, the Angel battleships don't get to 15km.

Just pick the T2 sentries best suited to the rats you're fighting - Wardens for Sepentis/Gurista/EoM, Bouncers for Angel Cartel, Curators for Sanshas Nation/Blood Raiders. There are no rats with thermal as their primary weakness, so I don't know why you'd use Gardes.

My Dominix pilot gets similar DPS out of T2 sentry drones to my cruise Raven.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.05 13:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Just pick the T2 sentries best suited to the rats you're fighting - Wardens for Sepentis/Gurista/EoM, Bouncers for Angel Cartel, Curators for Sanshas Nation/Blood Raiders. There are no rats with thermal as their primary weakness, so I don't know why you'd use Gardes.


Because they do not only have superior raw dps, they have superior tracking as well. Bouncers do decent dps, but can't track at all. Wardens do really crappy dps, and can't track either. For Serp/Guri, IF you have the rats within Garde Optimal, they will finish the job faster then wardens. As an added bonus, you can shoot BC's and Cruisers up close with them as well.

Also, several Minmatar rats have Thermal as weakest, and, correct me if I'm wrong because I'm a bit hazy on the subject, but don't Mercs also have Thermal as their weakest?

Tylara duChelm
Posted - 2010.01.05 16:17:00 - [6]
 

No transit time. You drop them out of your ship and they track and fire. So the 5-10 seconds it takes for your heavies to get there are spent shooting. And when they retarget. . . instant as well. Pop a couple tracking links and bouncers will hit, instant, out to 100km. (Though you need to be able to direct drones to enemies at that range.)

NyteTyger
Gallente
NiteSun Enterprises
Posted - 2010.01.05 16:58:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 05/01/2010 07:53:22
Augmented drones suck. Their split damage ruins one of the key advantages of drones that you can match them perfectly against the enemy's weakness.

The switching of sentries is a matter of seconds, compared to the vast oceans of time required for Ogres to lumber off to the next target. The only heavy drones I'd advise for missions are Berserkers for those in-your-face Angels battleships.

You do not need numerous scope chips and omnilinks. You need (maybe) two of the latter, and even then mainly to improve the tracking the range is just a bonus. For targets farther away, you choose other sentries (don't be blinded by the Gardes' damage it's not universally the best choice). If you want to use rigs, sentry damage rigs will help you far more.


This


Originally by: Tylara duChelm
No transit time. You drop them out of your ship and they track and fire. So the 5-10 seconds it takes for your heavies to get there are spent shooting. And when they retarget. . . instant as well. Pop a couple tracking links and bouncers will hit, instant, out to 100km. (Though you need to be able to direct drones to enemies at that range.)


And this

ugh

Adeline Grey
Posted - 2010.01.05 17:35:00 - [8]
 

The main reason I do not use sentrys is the same ones the OP mentioned, plus one more even more important one.

What do you do in those missions with gates 70k or 80k away from the warp in? You can't move while you use sentys. You have to sit there the entire time, and then once everything is dead, slowboat 80k to the next gate. Boring and slow.

Also, moving mitigates damage. I generally get full room aggro in my dual LARII perma running tanked Domi and sometimes moving is the only thing that mitigates enough damage to stop my tank from breaking in those super hi/omni damage type missions.

What do all you senty users think about those two things? Gates far away, and damage mitigation due to ship speed?

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.01.05 18:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Adeline Grey
The main reason I do not use sentrys is the same ones the OP mentioned, plus one more even more important one.

What do you do in those missions with gates 70k or 80k away from the warp in? You can't move while you use sentys. You have to sit there the entire time, and then once everything is dead, slowboat 80k to the next gate. Boring and slow.

Also, moving mitigates damage. I generally get full room aggro in my dual LARII perma running tanked Domi and sometimes moving is the only thing that mitigates enough damage to stop my tank from breaking in those super hi/omni damage type missions.

What do all you senty users think about those two things? Gates far away, and damage mitigation due to ship speed?


Not a sentry user myself, but...
You don't do the missions with 80km to the gates because they suck....
And you mitigate the damage in the high dps missions by killing the rats faster...

Rotundone
The Scope
Posted - 2010.01.05 18:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Adeline Grey
What do all you senty users think about those two things? Gates far away, and damage mitigation due to ship speed?

Kill BS rats. Drop Hamerhead IIs and start my journey, killing cruisers and frigates along the way (starting with any that web you). I also fit an AB to make cruising around after salvage faster.

If you want to move, try orbiting your sentries. I haven't found a need to, yet, though, with proper aggro management.

Mealtrom
Posted - 2010.01.05 18:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tippia
If you want to use rigs, sentry damage rigs will help you far more.


Current build is one sentry damage aug and 2 t2 scope chips. I could upgrade to a t2 sentry damage aug but it doesn't seem like a great improvement for the fitting/isk. Any alternative ways to spend the fitting?

Originally by: Mara Rinn
With sentry drones, the Angel battleships don't get to 15km.

Just pick the T2 sentries best suited to the rats you're fighting - Wardens for Sepentis/Gurista/EoM, Bouncers for Angel Cartel, Curators for Sanshas Nation/Blood Raiders. There are no rats with thermal as their primary weakness, so I don't know why you'd use Gardes.



Well aside from the tracking issues lots of rats have thermal as their secondary, which with the DPS off gardes could push them over the edge. Has anybody run the numbers on this?

Originally by: Adeline Grey
missions with gates/Boring and slow/moving mitigates damage.


This, I prefer to do missions alone and salvage the key wrecks as I go to save time. I even managed a stable tank with a 100mn afterburner (my internet connection likes to give out suddenly). I could still do this with sentries, but in the long run is it really worth it?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.01.05 19:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Adeline Grey
What do all you senty users think about those two things? Gates far away, and damage mitigation due to ship speed?

Well for gates far away: warp-in, drop sentries, and start shooting. When done, turn-off everything, collect drones, and slow-boat to gate... while salvaging with an alt. By the time I reach the gate, I have full shield and cap, and am finished salvaging with alt.

Irdia Freelancer
Posted - 2010.01.06 00:44:00 - [13]
 

My agent I use has two missions that it rolls from about 60 that has distant gates. WC4 is one of them, is another sansha mission with gates about 30 km.

In the sansha mission I let loose med drones which almost eliminate everything on the journey to the gate - this with a turretless domi. If I finish training hybrid turrets then the 350mm hybrids will help make short work of most of the sansha on the journey.

That leaves WC4 where the 1st pocket gates are about 32km away. Send out your heavies and they take damage. Drop your sentries and they kill evrything without taking a scratch - can see how the heavies are MUCH better than sentries here ...

Someone said sentries no good with close orbiting angel battleships? Have you not heard of a web? Web a close orbiting cruiser and bigger and the sentries do great damage. I have target painters fitted also as the domi has slots to burn so the sentries hit hard and fast on cruisers and above at any range.

Only thing they won't hit well is orbiting inteceptors which the sentries mostly pop at long range. Garde damage multiplier is 1.92x, ie sometimes the therm added damage of garde will overcome the wrong damage type. Trial and error to find what works best. Typically you load 2x sentry (1 long, 1 garde for short range) plus some small/med (small chew interceptors about 3x faster than med, med support better for anything bigger/slower than interceptors when moving between gates).

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.01.06 06:17:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Because they do not only have superior raw dps, they have superior tracking as well.


Bouncers kill Angel Cartel faster than Gardes. Wardens kill Mordus mercenaries faster than Gardes. Curators kill Drones, Sanshas faster than Gardes.

The good news for Gardes is that they are practically universal as a secondary weakness, so for a ship that only has a 125m3 drone bay, you can just pack gardes and be done with it. But Gardes are such short range you may as well be using Ogres.

The rat-specific sentry drones kill the rats before they get close enough for tracking to matter, if you know what you're doing.

And yes, the mercenaries in Damsel in Distress have a thermal weakness that is apparently greater than their kinetic weakness - I stand corrected. I've simply been relying on the superior range of wardens to allow the drone ship to warp in at sniping range and stay out of trouble.

Herpes Sweatrash
Posted - 2010.01.06 10:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Herpes Sweatrash on 06/01/2010 10:38:49
I use fit like this, love it and enjoy more than my alt who flies CNR. Can use t2 mods and it works fine. You can drop 1-2 magstab for aonther hardener and a CPR if you prefer not so anal cap management and a bit more tank (sadly can't fit top end plex LAR with t2 rails without fitting mods).

[Dominix, Sentry PVE]
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Cap Recharger II

Drone Link Augmentor I
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Garde II x5


Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.01.06 11:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
The rat-specific sentry drones kill the rats before they get close enough for tracking to matter, if you know what you're doing.



Not just mercenaries, but some Minnie also.

If you know what you are doing, you will engage as many rats as possible at the range where you CAN have the biggest effective dps given your ship. This is rarely at upper medium range, but rather at lower medium range, 20-50km. Depends a bit on the ship of course.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Bouncers kill Angel Cartel faster than Gardes. Wardens kill Mordus mercenaries faster than Gardes. Curators kill Drones, Sanshas faster than Gardes.


Gardes are a poor choice for Mordus indeed, as their weakness seems to be KI/EM, not KI/TH. Likewise for Angels with EXP/KIN.

However, for those with TH as secondary weakness, you're wrong. Let's look a bit closer. Please correct me if I've made a calculation error somewhere.

Curator II dmg mod: 1,56
Garde II dmg mod: 1,92

The rats for the most part have a flat 10% higher resist for their secondary weakness compared to their primary one. For those with EM/TH we can see that whenever the rat resists are at or above 47% / 57%, Curators will have more effective dps. Whenever they're below, Gardes will have more instead. NOTE, that this is discounting tracking completely, which is a foolish thing to do.

So for drones we have
Alvus Creator. EM: 46%, TH: 56% <--Garde
Curator does 1,56*0,54 = 0,8424
Garde does 1,92*0,44 = 0,8448

Alvus Queen EM 49% TH: 59% <--Curator
Alvus Ruler EM 45% TH 55% <--Garde
Patriarch EM 47% TH 57% <---Curator
Controller EM 40% TH 50% <--Garde.

Back and forth.
So given a choice, I'd go with Gardes every time, provided I can make them have enough Optimal to be effective, because their tracking wins out when dps is similar. Curator is a very good sentry though, I use it often.

But that's just battleships, there's always a ton of small stuff to kill too.
All Elite cruisers, provided you actually kill them before they reach orbit, Curators will do more dps. Once they reach orbit, I'd have to check but I wouldn't be surprised if Gardes get the upper hand due to tracking.
All normal cruisers frigs, Garde will be better.


Sansha?
Same thing, same 47/57% break point. Depends on the rat.



How about Wardens then? The weakest of the sentries when it comes to damage.
Warden dmg mod: 1,44
Garde dmg mod: 1,92

Here we can see a much bigger advantage for Gardes, meaning that only when rat resistances are above 60% / 70% do Wardens have an advantage, before tracking is taken into account. Those types of rats are a very small minority. In addition, Wardens track so badly, that they can't hit cruisers in orbit. Or at least they're terrible at it.

So for Serpentis, and indeed Gurista, when you have the rats within Garde optimal, Garde wins, in nearly all cases.


Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:46:00 - [17]
 

If I am belt ratting in serp 0.0, then I'll use the Warden and land at 100km.

For missions, I invariably use Garde II's plus two Omni's. Against Angels, yes use the Bouncer... the difference at range is phenomenal.

However that said, I find the Garde's plus two Omni's will hit cruisers orbitting me whereas the Warden and Bouncer tend to struggle to hit.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.01.07 00:02:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
So for drones we have
Alvus Creator. EM: 46%, TH: 56% <--Garde
Curator does 1,56*0,54 = 0,8424
Garde does 1,92*0,44 = 0,8448



The minor gain of using Gardes over Curators (in this example, 0.2%) is outweighed by the short range. As for tracking, once the rats are further than 15km from the drone boat, the Curators have no problems hitting. My drone boat can manage an optimal+falloff for Gardes of about 70km, so I'll certainly use them for close-range fights.

In the Rogue Drone Harassment mission, I'll probably use Gardes simply due to the random nature of which ship gets attacked by which spawn of drones. I have until now been using Curators to shoot the drones orbiting other ships, while my other ships shoot the drones orbiting the Dominix.

Quote:
So given a choice, I'd go with Gardes every time, provided I can make them have enough Optimal to be effective


Thankyou for the DPS calculations, I will take that into consideration for the future.

I believe I have a Serpentis blockade waiting for me when I get home, I'll make sure to report my experience when I get home tonight!

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.01.07 06:16:00 - [19]
 

Quote:

Augmented drones suck. Their split damage ruins one of the key advantages of drones that you can match them perfectly against the enemy's weakness.



Wait WHAT?

In PVE? Yeah. But they do not suck for PVP. People use hobgoblin drones for the DPS, warriors for the speed and tracking, and hornets for the mix of the two. People don't use acolytes at all.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.07 06:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Augmented drones suck. Their split damage ruins one of the key advantages of drones – that you can match them perfectly against the enemy's weakness.
Wait WHAT?

In PVE? Yeah. But they do not suck for PVP.
As the OP said: "I'm building a super high end mission runner"… so yeah, they suck.

The advantages of augmented (better tracking and HP) are non-issues in PvE and in exchange for not seeing those advantages, you get less damage. Neutral

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2010.01.07 10:03:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
The minor gain of using Gardes over Curators (in this example, 0.2%) is outweighed by the short range. As for tracking, once the rats are further than 15km from the drone boat, the Curators have no problems hitting. My drone boat can manage an optimal+falloff for Gardes of about 70km, so I'll certainly use them for close-range fights.


Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First citing 'short' range as a disadvantage, then stating optimal + falloff of 70 km, which is anything but short missionwise? (Even if 70 km seems unrealistic, iirc stacking penalty limits you to like 45 optimal and 12 falloff)
So with Gardes you have almost all your drone dps out to 50 km, and there are very few rats with longer orbits than that, so Gardes are perfect for most applications except those with high thermal resists (e.g. Angels). Just bring a flight of long range sentries too for the minute or two where the NPCs close into Garde range.

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.07 12:00:00 - [22]
 

Omni's are not stacking limited...

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2010.01.07 18:14:00 - [23]
 

Oh yes they are...

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.01.07 21:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First citing 'short' range as a disadvantage, then stating optimal + falloff of 70 km, which is anything but short missionwise? (Even if 70 km seems unrealistic, iirc stacking penalty limits you to like 45 optimal and 12 falloff)


My short range is obviously not your short range. I use a drone boat as a fire support vessel for my main mission running ship. It warps in at range behind me so I have time to blow up new spawns before they start attacking the drone boat/its drones.

Quote:
So with Gardes you have almost all your drone dps out to 50 km


When running encounter missions - take Blockade or Stop the Thief as an example - I'll warp in to about 70km range due to the spread of spawn points. The drone boat warps in some distance behind me, deploys drones and sets them to assist. Even against Serpentis, Gardes would be useless in this scenario - the NPCs rarely get close enough for the Gardes to shoot.

In the areas I'm usually running combat missions, my main targets are Angel Cartel and Mordus Legion. Between my usual encounter range, and the usual rats I'm fighting, I've disregarded Gardes for a long time. This thread has renewed my interest since my main mission boat is about ready to upgrade to torpedoes from cruise missiles.

syrus mac
Posted - 2010.01.08 11:17:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: syrus mac on 08/01/2010 11:19:41
i use a domi with sentrys for missions that require longer range, tank is a bit over the top as you don't really need it to perma tank, hardly ever gets past shields.here's my setup,
hi slots, 3 drone link augmentors and 3 T2 350mm rails, spike for range (120k max,antimatter for closer stuff)
mid slots, 3 omnidirectional tracking links, T2 sensor booster with targeting range script( also carry resolution script for closer stuff to speed up lock on frigs), 1 cap recharger
low slots, 2 cap power relays, dark blood large repper, dark blood EANM, damage control, 2 race specific hardener's.
rigs, 2 CCC 1's and a sentry damage augmentor
drones, 5x T2 wardens (112k range), 5x T2 gardes, some hobs and hammerheads( never use the hammers!!, but the hobs come in handy for the occasional frig that gets close
oops...answer to original question, yes sentrys are as good as advertised

ISK1machine
Posted - 2010.01.12 12:06:00 - [26]
 

if someone wants to use a 2nd char to mission with his main,i cannot think of a better choise than having a Dominix with a remote rep set up.It is very easy,SP wise to make a cap stable rr Domi,while it runs its own tank and adding a 200+ DPS to the main mission ship.Atm i gain almost 300 DPS from T1 sentries wich compined with the good alpha strike from a Nightmare pops with 1 cycle from tachyons most of BCs.One other good thing is that i dont really need to lock anything with the Dominix since the "assign drones to" feature helps alot.So if you want to combine a drone ship with a main ship then sentries are by far the best choise imo.
When i have to do solo missioning i use a Dominix fitted with an AB(cap stable with the tank on)while i run around salvaging at the same time.My drone skills are only T1 atm,but with heavy drones(only 330 with T1 oggres) but i am not sure wich is going to be more profitable in the future.Running missions with the high DPS Nightmare or with a T2 heavy drone nanoDomi(400+ DPS) that salvages the good stuff at the same time.

Kestrix
Posted - 2010.01.12 12:51:00 - [27]
 

One thing I've not noticed anyone mention so far is remote repping your sentries. Dump them out let them get aggro and then rep the drone that gets the aggro, if the damage looks like it'll beat the reps scoop up the drone and dump it out again. The rats never lock you becasue it's the drones that are attaking!

Kestrix

Denny Haze
Amarr
Bad Wolf Project
Posted - 2010.01.16 01:33:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Denny Haze on 16/01/2010 02:27:49
Edited by: Denny Haze on 16/01/2010 01:34:24
What about this (something I remember from either AT7, or 6):

Using an Ishtar instead of a Dominix, dropping Sentries, and then guiding the rats around for optimal sentry damage. Like orbiting something at the sentries' optimal, so all the rats gather round that distance.

I haven't gone to SISI, or EFT with this, yet, but adding drone tracking, and maybe a web/painter for some extra assistance. Using the ships guns to pop any frigs/cruisers along the way as well.
With an AB the Ishtar should be mobile enough to mitigate a lot of damage to evasion, and be fast enough to scoot back to the drones after stuff's dead, scoop, and move to the next gate.
From the Alliance Tournament the idea was to lead the targets optimally for the sentries, not the sentries for the targets.

Of course, this is all theoretical, and I've not flown Gallente in missions (Golem here, but I've used the speed/range/sig/resist tank on Cerb a lot), but would this be at all doable, and/or effective?

Edit: How would the Gila perform with sentries? I figure a bit less, with mids going to tanking instead of drone mods.


 

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