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Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:07:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Aveng3X

This. CCP is pretty much epic fail right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a fair few subscribers not renewing after the way CCP and GMs have dealt with such matters.


Well, who cares? Most people agree they dislike uberblobs anyway. EVE would be a better game with a quarter of the playerbase it has now.

Lucias Trask
Gallente
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:09:00 - [422]
 

Edited by: Lucias Trask on 06/01/2010 17:11:13
Edited by: Lucias Trask on 06/01/2010 17:09:36
Originally by: Frito11

you mean you like dominion, IT just took advantage of their TZ advantage and the currently known server issues in eve post dominion by having 600+ in a non-reinforced system long before we could get enough together to respond to their sudden taking of a station system because someone failed.


You mean because the system didnt drop sov until after DT and they jumped into it? So thats an exploit?

edit: ****, beaten.

edit edit: perfectly playable fight last night with 700 in system because NC split cynos at very deep safes and we met up on the grids later. Grids loaded in under 15 seconds most of the time. minimal gun lag, but some. Great fight.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:22:00 - [423]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 06/01/2010 17:34:34
This is a CCP failure, but it's not a failure to address lag, it's a failure of game design.

They need to design the "end game" so that beyond a certain size, more isn't better. Fleets beyond a certain size should start being too risky and unwise to assemble because they're vulnerable to various kinds of asymetrical warfare.

They have the right idea with bombers. They are pretty useless solo. They're a waste and too expensive to use and ineffective against a small, fast moving gang, but they shine when they're used with skill and effective coordination against a blob.

We need more of that in the "end game". We'll know we've hit the right balance when major powers no longer send out 500 man zergs to assult one system at one time, but favor sending out 10 50 man fleets to assault 10 systems at a time. The 500 man zerg should simply be too risky to assemble.

They tried to do this with Titans. The problem was that, unlike bombers, they were overpowered in just about all situations. If the doomsday had required a charge that cost a billion, launched with a 10 second "fuse" and was so large that only two could be carried, they would have been onto something.

The problem isn't with CCPs servers. The technologies in use do have and always will have limits and as they push those limits the players will always find them. The problem is that in Eve right now, and for a long time now, Moar is just about always better. It shouldn't be.




Vitae
Amarr
Uminas Innovations
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:33:00 - [424]
 

Originally by: davet517
This is a CCP failure, but it's not a failure to address lag, it's a failure of game design.

They need to design the "end game" so that beyond a certain size, more isn't better. Fleets beyond a certain size should start being too risky and unwise to assemble because they're vulnerable to various kinds of asymetrical warfare.

They have the right idea with bombers. They are pretty useless solo. They're a waste and too expensive to use and ineffective against a small, fast moving gang, but they shine when they're used with skill and effecive coordination against a blob.

We need more of that in the "end game". We'll know we've hit the right balance when major powers no longer send out 500 man zergs to assult one system at one time, but favor sending out 10 50 man fleets to assault 10 systems at a time. The 500 man zerg should simply be too risky to assemble.

They tried to do this with Titans. The problem was that, unlike bombers, they were overpowered in just about all situations. If the doomsday had required a charge that cost a billion, launched with a 10 second "fuse" and was so large that only two could be carried, they would have been onto something.

The problem isn't with CCPs servers. The technologies in use do have and always will have limits and as they push those limits the players will always find them. The problem is that in Eve right now, and for a long time now, Moar is just about always better. It shouldn't be.



You could not be more wrong if your name was Wrong Wrongenstein.
Titans with weapons that have 10 second fuses and cost a billion to fire..you're bloody mental mate. Stupid idea, needs to never be thought of again!
The problem IS the technology...thats the bottleneck. Anyone with a bit of insight will tell you so.
That doesn't mean that the game was poorly designed..it just means it needs a bit of work.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:44:00 - [425]
 

Originally by: Vitae


You could not be more wrong if your name was Wrong Wrongenstein.
Titans with weapons that have 10 second fuses and cost a billion to fire..you're bloody mental mate. Stupid idea, needs to never be thought of again!
The problem IS the technology...thats the bottleneck. Anyone with a bit of insight will tell you so.
That doesn't mean that the game was poorly designed..it just means it needs a bit of work.


I have to assume that you're an alt trying to troll me, or you haven't been playing long. The servers have needed "just a bit of work" for years now.

Technology has limits. If they make it so that 500v500 runs smoothly this year, you'll be right back here complaining that the servers are broken because 1000v1000 doesn't work next year. This game is written in Python (not the most performant language in existance, to say the least). There is only so much that technology can do.

Players can't be expected to restrain their "rules of engagement" in a sandbox. What CCP can do, though, is provide strong enough drawbacks and risks to assembling huge zergs that it's no longer the most effective tactic.

Vitae
Amarr
Uminas Innovations
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.06 17:56:00 - [426]
 

Edited by: Vitae on 06/01/2010 17:56:54
Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Vitae


You could not be more wrong if your name was Wrong Wrongenstein.
Titans with weapons that have 10 second fuses and cost a billion to fire..you're bloody mental mate. Stupid idea, needs to never be thought of again!
The problem IS the technology...thats the bottleneck. Anyone with a bit of insight will tell you so.
That doesn't mean that the game was poorly designed..it just means it needs a bit of work.


I have to assume that you're an alt trying to troll me, or you haven't been playing long. The servers have needed "just a bit of work" for years now.

Technology has limits. If they make it so that 500v500 runs smoothly this year, you'll be right back here complaining that the servers are broken because 1000v1000 doesn't work next year. This game is written in Python (not the most performant language in existance, to say the least). There is only so much that technology can do.

Players can't be expected to restrain their "rules of engagement" in a sandbox. What CCP can do, though, is provide strong enough drawbacks and risks to assembling huge zergs that it's no longer the most effective tactic.


Assume all you want..but that doesn't make your understanding of game design any better, much less your problem solving skills.
The work is ongoing and it probably will be for a long time..if not till the end of the game itself.

CCP can do many things, but what they shouldn't do..which they wont, so I'm not worried..is listen to you.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:01:00 - [427]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 06/01/2010 18:02:08
Originally by: Vitae

Assume all you want..but that doesn't make your understanding of game design any better, much less your problem solving skills.
The work is ongoing and it probably will be for a long time..if not till the end of the game itself.

CCP can do many things, but what they shouldn't do..which they wont, so I'm not worried..is listen to you.


Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Trebor Notlimah
Gallente
Lone Star EVE Group
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:06:00 - [428]
 

Originally by: davet517


Players can't be expected to restrain their "rules of engagement" in a sandbox. What CCP can do, though, is provide strong enough drawbacks and risks to assembling huge zergs that it's no longer the most effective tactic.


Here's a drawback! The grid won't load and you'll get murdered. I'm not even a blob FC and even I know not to drop a fleet onto an existing grid thats already occupied by an enemy blob. You don't do that in a reinforced node, much less one that not.

And EVERYONE was familiar with the new problems Dominion introduced: If you can force the enemy to have to come directly into your grid from another system (either via cyno or jump gate) -- the upper hand is yours.

Sounds like IT forced your hand and then made you eat it. LOL.

Ammath
Amarr
Burning Technologies
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:27:00 - [429]
 

Well CCP is hiring an IT Manager.... so maybe that will help solve your problems with IT in game.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 20:28:00 - [430]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 06/01/2010 20:28:32
Originally by: Trebor Notlimah


And EVERYONE was familiar with the new problems Dominion introduced: If you can force the enemy to have to come directly into your grid from another system (either via cyno or jump gate) -- the upper hand is yours.

Sounds like IT forced your hand and then made you eat it. LOL.


I wasn't involved in this fight, so IT didn't do anything in particular to me, but I've been in similar fights for years.

Are you saying that you're good with Eve's "end game" being all about who has the best time-zone management and Lag-Fu?

It seems to me that if flooding a system, dropping some SBUs, and then just waiting is a more or less assured "I win" because jumping in is always suicide 0.0 sov warfare is going to get very predictable, and very boring, pretty quick.

It won't be long before some genius figures out that rather than jumping into that 500 man blob, you just jump (or bridge) into one of their systems and drop SBUs instead. We trade space forever, and never engage.

Trebor Notlimah
Gallente
Lone Star EVE Group
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.06 21:38:00 - [431]
 

Originally by: davet517


Are you saying that you're good with Eve's "end game" being all about who has the best time-zone management and Lag-Fu?

It won't be long before some genius figures out that rather than jumping into that 500 man blob, you just jump (or bridge) into one of their systems and drop SBUs instead. We trade space forever, and never engage.



Time zone management is built into the sandbox, and has been for awhile -- your enemy can now adjust ihub reo timers to come out when you are at your weakest. So yea. Its part of the 'end-game' and it looks like it will always be. Also control tower stront timers. Both are intended to give a well-organized defender the opportunity to maximize their opportunity to defend their assets.

As for the lag it is a known issue in Dominion. You can find an thread somewhere of Wildly Inappropriate & friends whining about Atlas forcing them to jump directly into an unreinforced? grid and taking them to the cleaners. This was a 200 v 200 fight. So KNOWING this and of several other instances of the lag monster raping fleets -- and KNOWING the fleet that initially holds the grid has an insanely massive advantage -- the Pandemic/Goon/whoever FC knowingly ordered his 500+ man fleet +titans in. Pure suicide.

Thats like watching Wildly Inappropiate stick a fork into a standard 120v electrical socket and get fried to a crisp -- then going to the kitchen, wrapping yourself in aluminum foil, getting a larger fork, going to the laundry room, pulling the dryer off the wall, unplugging it, and sticking your fork into the 220v socket and getting fried to a crisp, then going to God and saying "WTF dude!"

Now this isn't an attempt to get the blame off CCP -- they suck donkey balls. But the sandbox is broken and we all know it. Adapt Or Die™






Akov Stohs
Caldari
Windowlickers Inc
Wrath.
Posted - 2010.01.06 21:59:00 - [432]
 

Should take note, that goons+friends could of attacked in any of the previous 12 hours, so this is hardly a Timezone issue.

Fenix Zealot
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:03:00 - [433]
 

Edited by: Fenix Zealot on 06/01/2010 22:04:48
I find it amusing that people continue to argue the point of eliminating blobs and massive fleets.

Has it occurred to anyone that no matter what you do to change the game's design, if you have one of a thing that works, two of that thing works just a little better, three even more, and so on and so forth?

It doesn't matter what CCP does to change ship stats or alter fleet roles, more of a good thing is always a better thing no matter how you spin it.

If one small fleet of 10 bombers is good, then 2 small fleets of 10 bombers is even better. If one gang of 20 BS is good at taking out sov structures, then 2x 20 man bs gang is even better. I'm sure its obvious where this argument is going...

Are blob tactics always fun and enjoyable? perhaps not... I personally prefer smaller covert stuff with fast action hit and run style tactics. Ultimately the small scale tactics are always there to soften, annoy, harass, and cut down a larger force so that your main large force stands a better chance numerically and tactically. Guerrilla strategies are never designed to win wars. The goal of Guerrilla tactics is to attempt to force a larger/stronger opponent into a weaker position capable of being directly assaulted with a more traditional force. Instances of Guerrilla tactics actually resulting in a total victory are mere coincidences... a result of an enemy forfeiting before the conventional assault takes place.

And in addition, guerrilla tactics only work when they are to scale with the opposing force in question. Again the larger the enemy force, and the more powerful it is, the larger your harassing force needs to be to make an impact. In other words, again the numbers game comes to play. All of warfare is like this... in real life, in video games, and much much more.

It might be time to refocus the discussion toward something that actually makes more sense than *****ing about blobs...

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 22:47:00 - [434]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 06/01/2010 22:55:16

Originally by: Fenix Zealot

I find it amusing that people continue to argue the point of eliminating blobs and massive fleets.

Has it occurred to anyone that no matter what you do to change the game's design, if you have one of a thing that works, two of that thing works just a little better, three even more, and so on and so forth?

It doesn't matter what CCP does to change ship stats or alter fleet roles, more of a good thing is always a better thing no matter how you spin it.

If one small fleet of 10 bombers is good, then 2 small fleets of 10 bombers is even better. If one gang of 20 BS is good at taking out sov structures, then 2x 20 man bs gang is even better. I'm sure its obvious where this argument is going...




The way to make bigger not better is to make bigger riskier and more vulnerable, which was my point. Just introduce forms of asymetrical warfare to the game that get more effective/attractive the bigger the blob gets, so that a 50 man fleet is more or less immune, but a 500 man fleet is just asking for it.

Bombers are a good example of this. Trying to launch a wave of bombs against a 10 man HAC gang is expensive and usually ineffective unless the HAC gang is inept. Against a 100 man RR or sniper BS gang it can be pretty damn effective if it's done well.

My point was that CCP should be looking at introducing more weapons and tactics that make fleets progressively more vulnerable to guerilla warfare the bigger they get. At some point blobbing up will be too risky and ultimately ineffective, so it won't be done.


TheDarkestDestroyer
Minmatar
Intergalactic Hunters of ManBearPig
Posted - 2010.01.06 23:03:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Originally by: TheDarkestDestroyer
CCP... have clearly displayed that they have no intention of making their game playable under their new mechanics.


I assume you'll be first in the queue for the test server, and that you're not just whining because your side died horribly.




try reading the whole post I'm not on a side I'm trying to get on the test server but when you click the pretty red link for the patch to make the current live server client work on the test server and you install the patch you get an error 404 when you click the link for the full installation you also get an error 404 also another prime example of CCP not having their *** together

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.06 23:08:00 - [436]
 

Originally by: Akov Stohs
Should take note, that goons+friends could of attacked in any of the previous 12 hours, so this is hardly a Timezone issue.


OK, but, you're 4000+ in your alliance? So, here's how it goes unless things have changed:

1. Goons start logging in.

2. We have them on our buddy lists (especially key people like titan pilots), so we see this.

3. We light up MSN/IRC/Whatever with calls to log in.

4. Goon shows up to find the same 300+ camping.

Beyond a certain size, it hardly matters. If your alliance is reasonably active you can always get at least 10% of your numbers to log on whenever.

The timezone management has little to do with reinforcement timers. It has to do with when you flooded the system in the first place. The aggressor is always going to have the initiative.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. An agressor won't be able to keep all of the systems pre-loaded after a certain point, so the initiative will lose its edge. I'm sure that after a while people will get a better feel for when to defend and when to just let an attacker spread themselves out first before counter-attacking.

lord khnrageX
Amarr
Oblivion Chaos Fleet
STEEL BROTHERHOOD
Posted - 2010.01.07 00:34:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Akov Stohs
Should take note, that goons+friends could of attacked in any of the previous 12 hours, so this is hardly a Timezone issue.


OK, but, you're 4000+ in your alliance? So, here's how it goes unless things have changed:

1. Goons start logging in.

2. We have them on our buddy lists (especially key people like titan pilots), so we see this.

3. We light up MSN/IRC/Whatever with calls to log in.

4. Goon shows up to find the same 300+ camping.

Beyond a certain size, it hardly matters. If your alliance is reasonably active you can always get at least 10% of your numbers to log on whenever.

The timezone management has little to do with reinforcement timers. It has to do with when you flooded the system in the first place. The aggressor is always going to have the initiative.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. An agressor won't be able to keep all of the systems pre-loaded after a certain point, so the initiative will lose its edge. I'm sure that after a while people will get a better feel for when to defend and when to just let an attacker spread themselves out first before counter-attacking.

* inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge. The agressor usually always has the initiative. If you can strike quick and without the enemy knowing at a time the dont suspect then you've pretty much won the battle. Blobs arent the problem the've become the basis of 0.0 warfare. If you come in with 500 you wont take a lot of space. If you have 1000+ you could take a lot of space. The problem is the server. If it cant load the players then its broken. Then server problem seems to have been countered by jumping in at 1k and using seperate cynos.

Your trying to get people to change their ways. Its not going to happen. You sound like some whiner who is complaining about blobs because your in some small alliance and your fleet got poped because your enemy had the advantage of numbers. The counter to a blob is a blob. But an even better counter is a good blob thats better equiped and more experianced.

If ccp cant adapt their game to suit the needs of the players then the game is broken. They need to get the servers up to maximum. ANd to answer you counter rants. The titans where the counter. But they werent properly made so that now there are like 290 in game. If ccp makes some new counter it will be too powerful or be completly broken.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.07 02:58:00 - [438]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 07/01/2010 02:58:56

Originally by: lord khnrageX
* inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge.


Sorry, you lost me right there. If you've already lost your ability to be civil, there's no point. Doesn't take much, does it?

OrDeR
Caldari
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.01.07 20:34:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: davet517
Edited by: davet517 on 06/01/2010 22:55:16

Originally by: Fenix Zealot

I find it amusing that people continue to argue the point of eliminating blobs and massive fleets.

Has it occurred to anyone that no matter what you do to change the game's design, if you have one of a thing that works, two of that thing works just a little better, three even more, and so on and so forth?

It doesn't matter what CCP does to change ship stats or alter fleet roles, more of a good thing is always a better thing no matter how you spin it.

If one small fleet of 10 bombers is good, then 2 small fleets of 10 bombers is even better. If one gang of 20 BS is good at taking out sov structures, then 2x 20 man bs gang is even better. I'm sure its obvious where this argument is going...




The way to make bigger not better is to make bigger riskier and more vulnerable, which was my point. Just introduce forms of asymetrical warfare to the game that get more effective/attractive the bigger the blob gets, so that a 50 man fleet is more or less immune, but a 500 man fleet is just asking for it.

Bombers are a good example of this. Trying to launch a wave of bombs against a 10 man HAC gang is expensive and usually ineffective unless the HAC gang is inept. Against a 100 man RR or sniper BS gang it can be pretty damn effective if it's done well.

My point was that CCP should be looking at introducing more weapons and tactics that make fleets progressively more vulnerable to guerilla warfare the bigger they get. At some point blobbing up will be too risky and ultimately ineffective, so it won't be done.




Can someone stop davet517 from posting?

Ardetia
Caldari
Killer Koalas
Posted - 2010.01.07 20:41:00 - [440]
 

Edited by: Ardetia on 07/01/2010 20:41:39
experts agree that if davet stops posting, caod will once again be the upper echelons of the eve forums
seriously


also, 300 isnt a blob.. and it will get fixed, just not right now :P
pretty sure ccp is working on alot of other things, other than eve.. such as dust514
and yea, its a shame


Trebor Notlimah
Gallente
Lone Star EVE Group
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.07 20:58:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: Ardetia

experts agree that if davet stops posting, caod will once again be the upper echelons of the eve forums
seriously



Less Davet. Moar Derek Chu.

davet517
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.01.08 00:42:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: Trebor Notlimah
Originally by: Ardetia

experts agree that if davet stops posting, caod will once again be the upper echelons of the eve forums
seriously



Less Davet. Moar Derek Chu.


Derek is awesome, tbfh. I'm just trying to balance him out so that CAOD awesomeness doesn't become so massive that it creates a black hole that sucks up the rest of the forum.

Tzujeih
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2010.01.08 04:14:00 - [443]
 

Are you guys still gloating about killing desynched ships after 15 pages or has the topic changed.

Vitae
Amarr
Uminas Innovations
X13 Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.08 06:46:00 - [444]
 

Originally by: Tzujeih
Are you guys still gloating about killing desynched ships after 15 pages or has the topic changed.


I'm sorry we're not as good at it as Goonswarm..we'll try to reach 30 pages+ some day.

Trebor Notlimah
Gallente
Lone Star EVE Group
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.08 16:23:00 - [445]
 

Originally by: Vitae
Originally by: Tzujeih
Are you guys still gloating about killing desynched ships after 15 pages or has the topic changed.


I'm sorry we're not as good at it as Goonswarm..we'll try to reach 30 pages+ some day.



Contributing to a cause.

Tinnian Maso
Gallente
Vanguard Venture
Vanguard Venture Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.08 18:19:00 - [446]
 

Originally by: Pudgy McFudge
Originally by: Metal Dude
Originally by: Pudgy McFudge
Originally by: Metal Dude
It was Saturday. You had all day to build up your US TZ forces along with euro TZ forces, just like IT did. You failed.



It was Saturday and I didn't spend all day playing internet spaceships. I failed.


Don't you guys brag about how you camped in BoB in PR- 23/7 for a month? Now you can't be bothered to respond to one of your failures to keep your pets happy, so it's everyone else’s fault that your incompetence cost you titans, caps, fleet and the system? How inconvenient for you.



We never camped BoB into PR-, BoB was the best corp in goonsawrm at the time. We camped Kenzoku.

To be honest it was less bragging about what we did and more laughing about what Kenny didn't do.






And now the shoe's on the other foot, the tears flow?

You reap what you sow....Clichés FTW!! Laughing

Sandwich PvP
Caldari
Furian Necromongers
Posted - 2010.01.08 18:45:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: Tzujeih
Are you guys still gloating about killing desynched ships after 15 pages or has the topic changed.


Due to the ongoing snowstorm in y-2, caused by the incredible amount of goon-splot tears generated by the little incident, we are petitioning to change the topic to : Goon-splot tears, traffic hazard or tasty treat?

Film at 11.

King Dave
Gallente
Raven Dynamics
The Insomniacs
Posted - 2010.01.09 08:44:00 - [448]
 

Originally by: Jebb Jones
Many dedicated pilots died tonight in Y-2 given that we could never load Y-2.

I encourage all to leave the game if this does not improve!




I'm still laughing.....

IIVY
Gallente
Project Edge
Posted - 2010.01.09 08:53:00 - [449]
 

goons pay for their sins now....o.0

Rhaegor Stormborn
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.01.09 08:54:00 - [450]
 

Originally by: Tzujeih
Are you guys still gloating about killing desynched ships after 15 pages or has the topic changed.


How are those reimbursements coming?


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