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Milana Arkani
Caldari
Strategic Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:34:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Bagrista

Can I have your stuff now?


No, because you're just another mindless alt coward.

And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.

Good night, trolls. Wink

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:44:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/01/2010 11:21:28
"Can I have your stuff?" is indeed the only suitable reply to the OP left at this point, since he refuses to accept any useful responses at all.


Understand, Milana, that we wouldn't have replied to the thread at all if we weren't genuinely trying to help you. If you have any brains at all, you will go back and read Larkonis' excellent post on the first page and then go practice that maneuver in high sec until you have it down right.


Bagrista
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:46:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Milana Arkani

No, because you're just another mindless alt coward.

And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.

Good night, trolls. Wink


Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door?

ForceM
Gallente
POS Builder Inc.
Silent Requiem
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:16:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Bagrista
Originally by: Milana Arkani

No, because you're just another mindless alt coward.

And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.

Good night, trolls. Wink


Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door?


More like "Daycare center" :)

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:25:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Bagrista
Originally by: Milana Arkani

No, because you're just another mindless alt coward.

And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.

Good night, trolls. Wink


Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door?


My mom says i'm special on the inside

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:29:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret
Cloak can't be engaged if someone even begins targeting you. So you need to align and cloak in one swift motion basically, to give them no time to click on you. A little bad luck and latency will get you killed though...


Tha is NOT true. When you have an yellow bracked you have already been locked. Try liek this.. get a stealth bobmer.. and a friend in acarrier. Ask him to start locking. SHould take almost 1 minute. You can cloak any time during that.


Fact is BC is not a small ship and its easy to lock it in 1 seconds only. And Server lag sometimes is far larger than that so your cloak command might not arrive in time.

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.03 12:15:00 - [127]
 

Has CCP ever published anything about how the EvE server and clients work, and how they're synchronized? Or has a serious player experimented and documented it?

This thread has presented several different, mutually exclusive versions, each apparently supported by experiments. They can't all be true.

Lagruna Zegata
Posted - 2010.01.03 12:16:00 - [128]
 

Rookie question for Larkonis:

You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)?

~LZ

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.01.03 12:19:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Lagruna Zegata
Rookie question for Larkonis:

You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)?

~LZ


Drag bubbles

Multipurpose Cleaner
Posted - 2010.01.03 12:52:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Zeredek
Originally by: Lagruna Zegata
Rookie question for Larkonis:

You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)?

~LZ


Drag bubbles


and smartbombs

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.03 13:23:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Lagruna Zegata
Rookie question for Larkonis:

You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)?

~LZ


On the off chance that their HIC pilot is switched on and has a MWD fitted as soon as he sees you cloak he will start burning towards you. If you spawn on the opposite side of the gate to the outbound and the inbound (and thus the camping ship) are between you and the outbound you will start aligning towards him, cutting the distance down considerably and adding to the chance that he gets a good 'vector' on you and decloaks you. I would make an illustration but I suck at drawing.



Reference picking something in front of you. You will find it takes exactly the same amount of time to align to something in front, behind or to the side of you after you jump through a gate.

Dianna Soreil
Monolithic.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2010.01.03 15:04:00 - [132]
 

holy **** you people are easy to troll

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.03 16:09:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/01/2010 16:09:58
Originally by: Milana Arkani
And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.
In other words, latency is working in your favour as you're trying to escape.
Originally by: Dianna Soreil
holy **** you people are easy to troll
I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments.

Larkonis TrassIer
State Breast Inspectorate
Posted - 2010.01.03 16:20:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Tippia

Originally by: Dianna Soreil
holy **** you people are easy to troll
I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments.


No, OP is trolling. Most of us figured it out about halfway down page 1.

Trader20
Posted - 2010.01.03 16:21:00 - [135]
 

Just emorage/quit already and contract me your stuff.....lock this thread.

N'tek alar
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.01.03 16:22:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 03/01/2010 16:09:58
Originally by: Milana Arkani
And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent.
In other words, latency is working in your favour as you're trying to escape.
Originally by: Dianna Soreil
holy **** you people are easy to troll
I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments.


except it's obvious that latency only affects the victims of pirates since pirates regukarly break into the server room and hack the code so latency only affects their victims and not themselves...

Bagrista
Posted - 2010.01.04 03:02:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: N'tek alar
except it's obvious that latency only affects the victims of pirates since pirates regukarly break into the server room and hack the code so latency only affects their victims and not themselves...


http://thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=67

Milana Arkani
Caldari
Strategic Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2010.01.04 03:55:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Milana Arkani on 04/01/2010 03:58:43
To clear up a couple misconceptions that are endlessly repeated in this thread:

1. I haven't disregarded the several interesting/practical/realistic/constructive replies to this thread. (e.g., Many say that I keep ignoring everything good/useful that is said to me, as if it is falling on deaf ears. But that's not true. I carefully read and consider and appreciate everything useful.) (Constructive comments = good. Trolls = bad.)

2. The combat log records events from the SERVER, if I am not mistaken. (That is a key point that I think many of you continue to overlook.) So, the SERVER indicates when it receives my full speed command. Then, three seconds later, it indicates that my attempt to cloak is blocked, etc. Some of you guys keep parroting that it took me three seconds to cloak, when in fact you have no idea whether that is true or not. Again, the combat log records events from the SERVER not the CLIENT, afaik. (Again, I can tap my keyboard as quickly as I want, but there is no guarantee when the server will receive and process those commands.)

Good quote here:

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Fact is BC is not a small ship and its easy to lock it in 1 seconds only. And Server lag sometimes is far larger than that so your cloak command might not arrive in time.


Regards,
Milana Arkani

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.01.04 04:11:00 - [139]
 

I'm sorry Milana Arkani

But i have to put you down

I'll miss you Crying or Very sad

You always was my favorite pet Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.04 04:37:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Milana Arkani
1. I haven't disregarded the several interesting/practical/realistic/constructive replies to this thread.
Yes you have, mainly by claiming that things that have a proven track record as very much working techniques aren't practical or realistic.
Quote:
Some of you guys keep parroting that it took me three seconds to cloak, when in fact you have no idea whether that is true or not.
No, it still tells us that you were slow. The server ticks are shorter than 3s so had your commands been closer together, you would have seen that in the logs. You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response.

Here's an exercise for you: take your Ferox, fill it with ungrouped guns, take it to a belt and find yourself a rat. Now run your finger across F1-F7 and notice how the shots are grouped. You now know how quickly in succession things need to happen in order for the server to consider it a simultaneous event.

Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.01.04 06:10:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Khorian on 04/01/2010 06:12:47
When I was still gatecamping in Low Sec it always amazed me how many people we killed. We even got some Blockade Runners who had cov ops cloaks fitted but didn't use them.

You need to realize that a specialized gate camp is built around the tackler. They have a solution for almost everything that might happen or come through. At least we had. The setups of their ships are all highly specialized for their tasks.

InstaLoc Hictors, Lachesis, Proteus. Consider your MWD shut of in the first split second. You wont even have time to build up momentum in a proper camp.

But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating.

Your best bet of survival is to use a scout and avoid to find yourself in such a situation. Because they use scouts and see you coming from miles away.

Your second best bet is to use the MWD-Cloak trick as everyone else here allready told you.

Your third best bet is to use a Frig with <1sec aligntime or a cov ops cloaky ship.

Your fourth best bet is to use a huge buffer tanked ship abd pray you can slowboat back to the gate. I would say your chances are higher with an AB than with a MWD these days but that of course also depends on the gatecamp.

You can also fly with a gang. If your gang is impressive enough the evil piwats wont even go to the gate to attack. Because as i said they see you coming from miles away and only come out to play if they are guaranteed a win.

With all that said, and if you follow those guidelines it is IMPOSSIBLE to die in Low Sec. IMPOSSIBLE! Once you understand that, you will also feel SAFE when you enter Low Sec coming from 0.0. In high Sec there is evil Concord and Navys. In 0.0 there is evil bubbles. Only Low Sec is safe.

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.01.04 06:24:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Khorian
But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating.


Activate scramble while targeting then?

Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.01.04 06:55:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Zeredek
Originally by: Khorian
But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating.


Activate scramble while targeting then?


Doesn't help :)

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.04 07:42:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Elena Laskova on 04/01/2010 07:44:48
Originally by: Tippia
... You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side ...
This is not true.

I play on a 3G card with a *local* network latency of about 350 milliseconds (reasonably stable). I'd expect most players are on 50 ms to 150 ms latency.

Servers and clients like EvE's which are built together can do things which mitigate the consequences of latency, so you can't randomly assume things work a certain way. For example a client can send commands as they are received, without waiting for a server acknowlegement. Or, as in my last MMO, some (not all) commands could require an ack before you can send another one - effectively locking the keyboard for 2 times network latency, which can be very nice for the player with lower latency.

EvE's code has been around a long time. I'd expect it contains a lot of server-side and client-side optimization intended to mitigate the effects of differential latency. But it's **impossible** for an MMO to perfectly synchronize two players with different network latency. And I do mean impossible. If *every single player* was on 50ms stable latency or less you could make it very hard to notice though.

I can also state with 100% confidence that things happening in the client PC/operating system can cause client-side latency. It looks like you can get additional client-side latency induced by overloading the graphics card too, but I don't have a way to measure that.

Bottom line: in today's EvE there are latency effects.


Some notes for the lunatic fringe of posters:

* I certainly could explain, (even execute) some testable scenarios, but I don't see the point. See above for an request (unanswered) for a link to some decent data.
* Differential latency doesn't mean that *all* the suggestions in this thread are wrong. Or even that the explanations are wrong.
* The thread contains contradictory answers. Some of the posts are wrong. Some of the explanations are wrong.
* Given the lack of knowledge of basic IT stuff displayed in this thread, it's very likely that some correct suggestions have incorrect explanations, and vice-versa.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.01.04 07:54:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Tippia
You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response.


Since network latency is a property of the network route (and its condition) a package has to travel, i.e. from the client to the server or from the server to the client, you can assume that two different users have two different routes and thus will not have the exact same latency.
Even if this only accounts for the last hop of the total route it can - and usually does - make a difference.

Why would (other) online games show you the ping (a basic metric for network latency) of other players? Certainly not because they all have the same latency.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.04 09:11:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 04/01/2010 09:17:37
Originally by: Elena Laskova
Originally by: Tippia
... You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side ...
This is not true.
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Tippia
You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response.
Since network latency is a property of the network route (and its condition) a package has to travel, i.e. from the client to the server or from the server to the client, you can assume that two different users have two different routes and thus will not have the exact same latency.
Ok, "exact same" was a bad choice of words. What I mean is that if it takes the server 1.5s to get the command you input, it takes the opponent the same 1.5s (at least) to get it as well – his possible reactions to a situation where you have the initiative is delayed by your latency, which helps you.

And, as mentioned, there's also latency on his end. It may not be symmetrical with yours, but it adds to what you have, and again, since you have the initiative, you're aided by it.
Originally by: Elena Laskova
* The thread contains contradictory answers. Some of the posts are wrong. Some of the explanations are wrong.
The thread contains answers that agree with the posits made in the OP, based on assumptions and hearsay, and answers that are right, based on experience. I wouldn't exactly call them contradictory… Wink

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.04 09:34:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Elena Laskova on 04/01/2010 09:56:59

Tippia:

As I tried to explain above, the situation is not as simple as it appears at first glance. There are surprisingly many different scenarios (depends on what initiated each sequence of actions; how the server works; how the client works), and results will vary a great deal between different scenarios.

Simple example:

Server makes Player A (250 ms N/W latency) arrive somewhere after warping (i.e. it's a server-initiated sequence). Player B (100 ms latency) is very close to that location.

* Player B's client learns A has arrived 100 ms later.
* Player A's client learns A has arrived 250 ms later.
* B issues a command (received by the server 100 ms later, at +200 ms).
* B's command 1 is acked back to B (ack received at +300 ms).
* A sends his first command at +250 ms.
* B sends a second command at +300 ms.

In what sequence are the commands executed? What are the command timestamps logged (in **server** time) in the client?

This is a very basic scenario, and I don't claim it actually matches EvE. It assumes zero server and client lag, zero player lag, and that commands have to be acked before another can be sent. Does EvE actually work this way? I don't know. The scenario is just intended to highlight the basic issues of synchronizing players' clients in a realtime shared runtime like an MMO.

The final section of my last post summarizes what happens when stuff like this isn't known for the particular runtime environment. It doesn't preclude the development of efficient tactics. But it does mean that different people can obtain different results from the same methods and tactics.

As for the contradictions: I seem to remember that OP has been told that:

* Even with perfect tactics cannot get through a gate camp
* Sometimes, depending on various arcane factors, you can get through a gate camp
* With correct tactics anyone can get through a gate camp
* Only a ****** could fail to get through a gate camp.

I accept that he may have received perfect advice. But you'd never know from reading this thread because every other kind of advice has also been given.

Dipluz
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Posted - 2010.01.04 09:46:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Milana Arkani
I jump into a 0.4 sec system in my Ferox with 2 WCS and a Cloaking Device.

Upon arriving on the other side, I see about 10 red blinky hostile ships about 15-20km away (clearly a gatecamp).

Still cloaked after the jump, I guess that my best method of escape is to tap my engines for a second and immediately cloak.

But apparently that is not good enough.

Within that time period, I am *immediately* targeted, so my cloaking device doesn't work.

[ 2010.01.01 22:34:44 ] (notify) Speed changed to 168 m/s
[ 2010.01.01 22:34:47 ] (notify) You cannot cloak your ship as you are being targeted by someone.

Shortly thereafter: Pop.

*Zero* chance to escape. WTF...

(Is that really reasonable? If so, then there is NO safe way to jump into low-sec space.)

Btw: How do people successfully target my ship within 2-3 seconds? (My understanding is: One needs to get a target LOCK on my ship to prevent my cloaking, correct?)




Everything is as gameplay is made and intended by CCP,

nr1 low sec isnt SAFE!
nr2 hic (heavy interdictors) has a unlimited warp disruption point when in low sec or 0.0, which means warp core stab is useless
nr3 dont fly heavy and slow ships like a ferox in low sec ITS NOT SAFE
nr4 if u wanna fly in low sec which is low security area fly with friends and fight your way
nr5 a heavy interdictor with 3 sensor boosters plus remote sensor boosted by countless others will properly have 2-3000 scan resolutin which is about fast enough to target faster than you can cloak.
nr6 a ferox is not hard to decloak even after you cloak
nr7 eve is a pvp game :P live with it or go back to wow

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2010.01.04 09:49:00 - [149]
 

SOMEONE LOCK THIS THREAD MY HEAD HURTS!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.04 09:53:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 04/01/2010 10:07:22
Originally by: Elena Laskova
Simple example:

Server makes Player A (250 ms N/W latency) arrives somewhere after warp (i.e. it's a server-initiated sequence). Player B (100 ms latency) is very close to that location.

1) Player B's client learns A has arrived 100 ms later.
2) Player A's client learns A has arrived 250 ms later.
3) B issues a command (received by the server 100 ms later, at +200 ms).
4) B's command 1 is acked back to B (ack received at +300 ms).
5) A sends his first command at +250 ms.
6) B sends a second command at +300 ms.
I've numbered the events to make things clearer. The thing is, that in the scenario we're talking about here, event 3) cannot happen before event 5) (and events 7 and 8, not listed, where the server acks event 5 and rebroadcasts it to everyone on grid, which is then acked by B). In this particular scenario, we can say a couple of things with certainty about the order of events because the game prescribes that they must happen in that exact order.

Unless A is unlucky and lands close enough to B to be insta-uncloaked, B can do fsck-all until A lets him. A must issue his command, it must be acked by the server, it must then be broadcast to and acked by B, and only then can B issue his command to start affecting A (which is further delayed by good old bio-latency… Razz)

edit:
Ooh, btw. Iirc, they talk a fair bit about how cloaking is treated by the game engine and about what the work distribution between client and server is in the PvP discussion from FanFest '09, which you can find on youtube.


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