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NEMESIS SIN
Posted - 2010.01.02 20:52:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: NEMESIS SIN on 02/01/2010 20:53:11
Originally by: Callista Sincera
Edited by: Callista Sincera on 02/01/2010 20:30:21
Originally by: NEMESIS SIN
1.) Yes I am talking about tech II. We bend over for you everyday...


Tech 2. High sec. Right. Next!



I mean actual PVP'ers, hell even REPO still flies good ships in spite of their dwindling competency atm. I gather you are either a carebear, or a "PVP want to be" who wont touch tech II with a ten foot stick.


You obviously have little to no experience in the big leagues. Next! Laughing


Originally by: NEMESIS SIN
2.)And I will have to assume your are a fail miner if you are truly in such a predicament. A hulk can pull a considerable amount of ore per hour. Add to that manufacturing, market manipulation and invention, and you have an epic income with absolutely no risk whatsoever--outside of suicide gankage, of which you whine about endlessly.


Dude, a) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate the ISK/hour for a hulk. Please compare to missionrunning. Thanks.

Besides, nothing prevents you from manufacturing your own stuff. It's not like you'd have to sit and watch it being built. You know, you actually can shoot stuff while the job is running.



It may not be as epic as LV 4 grinding, but its still pretty darn good. And its absolutely, AFK ZERO risk. I guess not anymore though HAHA NEXT! Laughing


Originally by: NEMESIS SIN
When my + 200M ISK Zealot dies [including mods] I don't cry, I replace it. So, loosing your hulk, occasionally, from time to time, does not concern me. Beyond anything else, unless your are failing epically, you have more then enough ISK and assets to replace that hulk at the drop of a hat.


Yeah, that's the classical problem. If you don't agree with some guy he automatically assumes you belong to the other camp. Dude, I wouldn't go anywhere near a hulk at the current mineral prices. I already explained that the ISK/hour is anything but stellar. Last time I logged into my mining account, trit was at 4.3 ISK and even then one single tradeorder made more ISK/hour than that oh so unfairly-fast-moneygrinding mining char you're so jealous of. But then, if mining is so great, why don't you do it? Huh?... Made any sense lately?



I am jealous of miners. You caught me,I mean, all I have is ratting, plexing, mission running and C4 wormholes in my tech 3.

And... forget my previous comment about PVP in a tech II ship, you wont even mine in one. Rolling Eyes Made any sense lately? NEXT!



Originally by: NEMESIS SIN
So cry more?
I'm not crying . . .
yes you are.


Huh? You think just because you say so it'll happen? Had a reality-check lately? I pointed out where you're wrong. If you want to call me a whiner because your argument sucks then that's your prerogative. You're still wrong though and calling me something still doesn't make me that.

Also: Have fun putting some more quotes out of context... Rolling Eyes




This was pretty fun thank you. NEXT! LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing





Do U like meh Wall o text?

Karupted Soul
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:11:00 - [122]
 

just to add my 2 cents as a non-rich miner.... the goonswarm's gonna go through with hulkageddon weather we industrialists band togather or not and though the theory of raising the prices on all there gear has merit do you honestly think that a group whos giving out a top prize of what was it 3 bill isk are gonna bat a eye at a few mill more on there gear prices???.... i would say instead do something that helps your own side out aswell as hurts them.... if your willing to lose profits raise there prices and bottom out the prices on all your industrial goodies thus when we get blown up or suicide ganked its not us that have to pay out more money for a new ship and mods thus hurting thier wallets well keeping ares nice and cushie other wise your trying to fight a battle that only you high lvl miners can afford thus losing your support from the lower class miners cause if i'm gonna be shelling out 200mill on a hulk when my training time is done im not gonna drop my profits or i won't be affording my upgrades when the time comes... Viv le Liberty, Viv le revolution

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:28:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 02/01/2010 21:54:02
Originally by: Forum Reprentative
Edited by: Forum Reprentative on 02/01/2010 20:47:01
Edited by: Forum Reprentative on 02/01/2010 20:46:05
Originally by: Ranger 1

The "care bear" through his inability to plan, organize, or work with others manages to become a victim, even though he has a large advantage in game mechanics.

Laughter is indeed the appropriate response, it seems you are directing it at the wrong group however.



So, a corporation of guys who run mining Op's, research/invent in their post, manufacture and haul their stuff (often called the carebears) are unable to plan, organize and work together, right?

And, a bunch or 4-6 guys in their dessies who jump in a belt to gank an exhumer or wait in a gate to gank an industrial requires hours of hard planning and and incredible organizational skills, right?

My laugh is indeed directed straight to the right group, which seems you belong to.


My statement was primarily directed at the loner in an NPC corp.

However, certain truths emerge when applying it to some player corps as well.

The ability to run mining ops, research/invent, manufacture and haul are the most remedial skills in EVE. I applaud groups that have the basics down, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. However they missed the somewhat more advanced (and somewhat more crucial) step of learning how to protect themselves and all of those activities.

You fail to realize that there are a great many empire based industrial corps that can and will defend themselves from such attacks, or at the very least maintain a high enough state of readiness that they do not fall victim to such attacks.

Such groups are called successful.

The groups that sit in the belt with no precaution, no preparation, no clue and simply die while blaming everyone but themselves?

Such groups are called care bears.

Everyone is free to chose which group to be a part of.

Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:37:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 02/01/2010 21:38:31
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Doctor Penguin
I hope that the C&P community are aware that if this actually does cause a significant impact CCP will just make it harder to suicide gank.


You mean like they did when Jihadswarm was killing hulks left and right?

Oh wai-


I'm pretty sure CONCORD hasn't always been as strong as it is now. Was Jihadswarm after the latest round of CONCORD buffs? And how many Hulks did they kill?

I'm just suggesting that going overboard on this Hulk killing spree - say you killed something silly like 10% of all active Hulks in the game - would cause CCP to make it harder to suicide gank, given that it would have been proved to be far too easy. Probably with methods like preventing insurance being paid out if CONCORD is on the killmail or preventing Orcas from being used as the hub to resupply gankers.

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:43:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Elena Laskova on 02/01/2010 21:43:29
Originally by: Ranger 1
... groups that sit in the belt with no precaution, no preparation, no clue and simply die ...
The only differences between this and suicide gankers:

* Suicide gankers prepare - they have to buy and fit their ship
* Miners contribute something to the game (ore)

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.01.02 21:53:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I missed the memo where this was a game only to be played in a certain way. Not everyone in the game wishes to be part of a player corp, with all the drama and time burdens it involves, and not everyone can or will be able to organize a coaltion of people against an organized threat.

Freedom to play means freedom to enjoy the game how you like, no laughter in taking one road over the other. If we are going to start shaping how players should play through force, freedom dies.


Nobody is forcing you to work with others, although CCP has repeatedly reinforced the statement that the game is designed around this principal.

So rejoice, freedom will live. Only you will die.



CCP can state what they like, a sandbox is designed to be free-form, and that means freedom to engage they way a person likes. If they want us all to huddle in groups and alliances, let them end the NPC corps, make all of empire space lowsec, and go from there.

By the way, I'm already dead. New to the game I may be, but you honestly don't think I wouldn't take the basic protection of using a forum alt, do you?


I'm sure CCP appreciates your telling them what design decisions they are allowed to make.

Also, I have no intention of suicide ganking anyone, least of all you.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:03:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Doctor Penguin
Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 02/01/2010 21:38:31
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Doctor Penguin
I hope that the C&P community are aware that if this actually does cause a significant impact CCP will just make it harder to suicide gank.


You mean like they did when Jihadswarm was killing hulks left and right?

Oh wai-


I'm pretty sure CONCORD hasn't always been as strong as it is now. Was Jihadswarm after the latest round of CONCORD buffs? And how many Hulks did they kill?

I'm just suggesting that going overboard on this Hulk killing spree - say you killed something silly like 10% of all active Hulks in the game - would cause CCP to make it harder to suicide gank, given that it would have been proved to be far too easy. Probably with methods like preventing insurance being paid out if CONCORD is on the killmail or preventing Orcas from being used as the hub to resupply gankers.


IIRC, Jihadswarm killed quite a few hundred Hulks and Macks, and that was after the most recent round of CONCORD buffs. I vaguely recall that someone calculated that they were killing hulks at approximately 1/3 the rate that they were being produced. I dont know whether you'd count that as "significant".

I take an empirical view of 'significance': if something changes player base behaviour, then it's significant. (Forum rabble-rabble is not a good indicator). Given that plenty of people continued to find it worthwhile to mine "very inattentively" in untanked Hulks, I'd say that Jihadswarm's activity wasn't significant. And I rather doubt that Hulkageddon will be either.

Incidentally, you can apply the same test to the other form of suicide ganking. Are there still lots of people who AFK untanked T1 haulers with lots of goodies? If so, then the "predator pressure" has not been significant enough to change the behaviour of the playerbase, regardless of forum noise. I would advise that you doubly disregard the noise made by people who seem to think that it's somehow morally wrong to ask them to fit a Damage Control II instead of a second Mining Laser upgrade if they want to mine AFK.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:09:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 02/01/2010 22:11:34
Originally by: Elena Laskova
Edited by: Elena Laskova on 02/01/2010 21:43:29
Originally by: Ranger 1
... groups that sit in the belt with no precaution, no preparation, no clue and simply die ...
The only differences between this and suicide gankers:

* Suicide gankers prepare - they have to buy and fit their ship


It was a wise decision on your part to avoid a play style that involves suicide ganking (or combat of any kind for that matter) if you think that is all there is to it. I wonder how successful you would be if your chosen career path meant that you would automatically lose your ship each time you took it out.

Originally by: Elena Laskova
* Miners contribute something to the game (ore)


Suicide gankers do as well, a number of things actually.

They provide an element of challenge and risk for the empire industrialist, without which (whether they realize it or not) many would quickly become bored and quit.

They provide stimulus to the market, both in replacing their ships and modules and with the losses they inflict. If there was no combat in EVE, how long do you think there would be a demand for your minerals? You too, my friend, are part of that food chain.

They also provide a great deal of amusement for a large percentage of the players of EVE. Both for those that can successfully deal with them, and for those that make a mistake and fall victim to them occasionally. It's a game. Sometimes you prevail, sometimes not. But you can't do either unless there is some level of risk.



Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:26:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1


Suicide gankers...




Been seeing a lot of them lately.

Thirty to forty hanging around many of the high sec bottlenecks.

What this tells me is that much like many other things in the past that have become common to the point of game breaking, a big nerf is coming. Ghost training, Nano, the .99 scam, etc, all fell by the wayside as they moved from something a relative few were doing to where everyone was doing it.

Whether it will be an insurance nerf or a sec hit boost or even a ban on blinkys in high sec doesn't really matter. the fact is we are near to the end of the grief for free era in EVE. Have fun while you can, because it will soon come to an end.

Mr Epeen Cool

Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:26:00 - [130]
 

Suicide gankers would contribute just as much to the game by auto-euthanasing.

Solar Blade
Posted - 2010.01.02 22:53:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Solar Blade on 02/01/2010 22:55:18
EVE is going in a bad direction with the ever increasing suicide ganking in high sec.

Years ago it was still possible and profitable to love in lowsec space. Now a days, I wouldn't even try anymore less my POS be shot up by the first pirate group that comes by.

Lowsec is starting to become impossible to travel through without a covert ops cause a gang will be waiting at the gates chasing people back into highsec. In the past those pirates hung around the belts looking for miners, but when gatecamping became more common as people could more easily tank the gate guns... result, miners are moving on.

Low sec POSs are turning more and more rare as pirates now have more dreads than they can spare, and will use them to ransom or simply loot the stations. Wasn't lowsec originally designed to be the stepping stone towards 0.0?

0.0 has become capital county, Ok the titan fix (yes not nerf, FIX) helped that out a bit in the form that titan drive-by's have become harder. I hope the sovereignity changes will effect 0.0 life in a good way.

And people wonder why players stayed in high sec.
But because of this the pirates move into highsec, cause thats where their pray has gone right?

Now empire is suffering from the same problems.
A system to profit by griefing, hurting or simply annoying other people is found to be effective and as a result is overused.

Before it was 0.0, the stuff made for 0.0 poisened lowsec and now, empire to is starting to become more and more inhospitable for players that don't want to PVP.

The only part in eve that currently seems to be somewhat spared of this is wormhole space.

I don't mind a pirate trying to hunt me while I do a mission. I don't mind having to watch my back while mining, ratting or missioning in highsec or lowsec.



One solution I hope will be implemented soon, is that insurance is no longer payed out to ships killed by concord.

Also gate-guns in lowsec and highsec should be made stronger so they scare off camps there. at least to such a level that lowsec life becomes possible again.

Any other measures that can bring some more balance into lowsec would be much appreciated also.


Taiberian
Posted - 2010.01.02 23:12:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Ranger 1


Suicide gankers...




Been seeing a lot of them lately.

Thirty to forty hanging around many of the high sec bottlenecks.

What this tells me is that much like many other things in the past that have become common to the point of game breaking, a big nerf is coming. Ghost training, Nano, the .99 scam, etc, all fell by the wayside as they moved from something a relative few were doing to where everyone was doing it.

Whether it will be an insurance nerf or a sec hit boost or even a ban on blinkys in high sec doesn't really matter. the fact is we are near to the end of the grief for free era in EVE. Have fun while you can, because it will soon come to an end.

Mr Epeen Cool


Not sure about this.. more than 300K subscriptions say to CCP that: "No problem everything's ok"

So, unless suicide ganking become such common that makes the game totally impossible for the industrial guys make their activities, so they start to quit en masse, no one's gonna change a sh*t.

Hell, even if all the miners quit tomorrow, or more than likely, change to run missions, the minerals that come after reprocess the loot will be enough to satisfy the poor demand of minerals due the lack of major wars.

insurance fraud and the raise of gankers activity is just the consequences of the current economy/politic situation where the big alliances has change war mode into industrial mode, there's 15K hulk pilots in the game being the hulk the most common ship (2.5% of the total)

So, even if the Lolageddon manage to kill some hundred hulks, wont change nothing.

There's too much offer and not enough demand, just this.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.01.02 23:14:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 02/01/2010 23:22:38
Originally by: Solar Blade
EVE is going in a bad direction with the ever increasing suicide ganking in high sec.
Increasing?! Shocked I see less and less of it every day, only it generates more and more whining on the few occasions that it does happen (most likely because it's such a rare and shocking experience that people forget how to handle it).

You used to be able to sit on the Jita offramp and watch the CONCORD-sponsored fireworks go off every 5 minutes, now it can be hours between them.
Quote:
A system to profit by griefing, hurting or simply annoying other people is found to be effective and as a result is overused.
Seeing as how griefing gets you banned, it's quite hard to profit from it. As for annoying or hurting other players… well duh. PvP game and all that. Being able to profit from that is a good thing for the game.
Originally by: Malcanis
IIRC, Jihadswarm killed quite a few hundred Hulks and Macks, and that was after the most recent round of CONCORD buffs. I vaguely recall that someone calculated that they were killing hulks at approximately 1/3 the rate that they were being produced. I dont know whether you'd count that as "significant".
According to CCP EyioG, the Hulk production rate immediately skipped up to 450/day as a direct result of the killing spree, 3–4× how many the goons managed to destroy. That campaign was a huge boon to the Hulk production industry, if anything.

NEMESIS SIN
Posted - 2010.01.02 23:22:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Solar Blade
EVE is going in a bad direction with the ever increasing suicide ganking in high sec.
Increasing?! Shocked I see less and less of it every day, only it generates more and more whining on the few occasions that it does happen (most likely because it's such a rare and shocking experience that people forget how to handle it).

You used to be able to sit on the Jita offramp and watch the CONCORD-sponsored fireworks go off every 5 minutes, now it can be hours between them.
Quote:
A system to profit by griefing, hurting or simply annoying other people is found to be effective and as a result is overused.
Seeing as how griefing gets you banned, it's quite hard to profit from it. As for annoying or hurting other players… well duh. PvP game and all that.



All you need is enough outcry in the first place? No?

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2010.01.02 23:51:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Taiberian

So, even if the Lolageddon manage to kill some hundred hulks, wont change nothing.




While I agree with your conclusion, you vastly underestimate the number of hulks slated to die. This character alone has ganked 4 hulks and mackinaws just today. And it's not even hulkageddon. And I have plenty of security rating and megathrons left.

Sure, it won't make a difference to anyone. But it'll be FUN, and fun is what this game should be about.

Wesfahrn
WESCORP 2.0
Posted - 2010.01.03 00:06:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Solar Blade
Edited by: Solar Blade on 02/01/2010 22:55:18
EVE is going in a bad direction with the ever increasing suicide ganking in high sec.

Years ago it was still possible and profitable to love in lowsec space. Now a days, I wouldn't even try anymore less my POS be shot up by the first pirate group that comes by.

Lowsec is starting to become impossible to travel through without a covert ops cause a gang will be waiting at the gates chasing people back into highsec. In the past those pirates hung around the belts looking for miners, but when gatecamping became more common as people could more easily tank the gate guns... result, miners are moving on.

Low sec POSs are turning more and more rare as pirates now have more dreads than they can spare, and will use them to ransom or simply loot the stations. Wasn't lowsec originally designed to be the stepping stone towards 0.0?

0.0 has become capital county, Ok the titan fix (yes not nerf, FIX) helped that out a bit in the form that titan drive-by's have become harder. I hope the sovereignity changes will effect 0.0 life in a good way.

And people wonder why players stayed in high sec.
But because of this the pirates move into highsec, cause thats where their pray has gone right?

Now empire is suffering from the same problems.
A system to profit by griefing, hurting or simply annoying other people is found to be effective and as a result is overused.

Before it was 0.0, the stuff made for 0.0 poisened lowsec and now, empire to is starting to become more and more inhospitable for players that don't want to PVP.

The only part in eve that currently seems to be somewhat spared of this is wormhole space.

I don't mind a pirate trying to hunt me while I do a mission. I don't mind having to watch my back while mining, ratting or missioning in highsec or lowsec.



One solution I hope will be implemented soon, is that insurance is no longer payed out to ships killed by concord.

Also gate-guns in lowsec and highsec should be made stronger so they scare off camps there. at least to such a level that lowsec life becomes possible again.

Any other measures that can bring some more balance into lowsec would be much appreciated also.




The problem is you are trying to solo in systems where you actually need some form of organisation of people with you. May i suggest you move to more quiet parts of the universe. Remember eve also getting more and more crowded since "those days" :)

Black Leather
Posted - 2010.01.03 00:13:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Clair Bear

Sure, it won't make a difference to anyone. But it'll be FUN, and fun is what this game should be about.



It would be fun as well to camp you into a station until you quit in a sea of your own tears.

Fun for me, that is.

I can cultivate your fine attitude as well. Like it?

BL


Wesfahrn
WESCORP 2.0
Posted - 2010.01.03 00:21:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Black Leather
Originally by: Clair Bear

Sure, it won't make a difference to anyone. But it'll be FUN, and fun is what this game should be about.



It would be fun as well to camp you into a station until you quit in a sea of your own tears.

Fun for me, that is.

I can cultivate your fine attitude as well. Like it?

BL




Why are you still here, and not camping him into a station?

Taiberian
Posted - 2010.01.03 00:35:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Taiberian on 03/01/2010 00:36:04
Originally by: Wesfahrn
Originally by: Black Leather
Originally by: Clair Bear

Sure, it won't make a difference to anyone. But it'll be FUN, and fun is what this game should be about.



It would be fun as well to camp you into a station until you quit in a sea of your own tears.

Fun for me, that is.

I can cultivate your fine attitude as well. Like it?

BL




Why are you still here, and not camping him into a station?


euhh... dude I think his statement was Rhetorical, I guess, trying to show that the sense of fun is relative when you get it towards other misery.

Seriously, you can undock.

Hamano Walker
Posted - 2010.01.03 01:04:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Hamano Walker on 03/01/2010 01:09:00
Originally by: Selrid Miamarr

Most of the enjoyment will be on the ganker end though. Please be honest, the intent is to gank the carebears for the lulz. That enriches neither them nor really the game through that interaction, although it does enrich another class of people.


See, it does enrich carebears, if they want to learn. The fact is you can get suicide ganked every day. I can get hit at a gate camp every day. The fact that it hasn't happened to you yet in no way indicates that it won't. Now that you know there's an organized force out to kill you for valuable cash and prizes you're aware of this threat.

You have the option to learn how to play the game better to avoid getting hit by Hulkageddon. In the process you'll learn how to avoid getting hit during the other 50 weeks. Or maybe you'll just lose a bunch of ships. Generally when you get ganked, though, its not because someone wants to ruin your day in particular. Its because you're an easy target. If you learn not to be an easy target, you'll survive.

It enriches the game in that players are now playing a part usually reserved for NPC's. A world without conflict is a dull world. Its more interesting when you have bad guys. ISK/hour isn't the goal of everyone playing the game. Many of us are motivated by fun, however we define it. Hulkageddon provides that fun for some people. Hooray for them.

Quote:

I missed the memo where this was a game only to be played in a certain way. Not everyone in the game wishes to be part of a player corp, with all the drama and time burdens it involves, and not everyone can or will be able to organize a coaltion of people against an organized threat.

Freedom to play means freedom to enjoy the game how you like, no laughter in taking one road over the other. If we are going to start shaping how players should play through force, freedom dies.


There isn't a certain way, in terms of a single path to take. There are, however, tactics that are more effective. Whether or not you choose to use those is entirely your option. Just like life, though, you can expect to reap the consequences of your actions. As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to solo in an unarmed, unaligned Hulk that jet cans as long as you're actually at your computer while doing it. Be free! Do it how you want! Just don't be surprised when you get suicide ganked and can flipped by other free people.

Olympus Carrier
Posted - 2010.01.03 02:22:00 - [141]
 

Seriously, I have a question. The Hulk miners that are likely heading for High Sec at the moment....are they really going to be in so much danger? I'm aiming this at players that have survived in their Hulks through the last tournament. Granted, the risk is higher, but I'd like to see statistics from the last event (in relation to how much of an impact this actually has on EVE), I'm guessing very little.

Plus, how many attempted a suicide gank in 0.8 to 1.0 sec space?

Selrid Miamarr
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.03 02:32:00 - [142]
 


Quote:
See, it does enrich carebears, if they want to learn. The fact is you can get suicide ganked every day. I can get hit at a gate camp every day. The fact that it hasn't happened to you yet in no way indicates that it won't. Now that you know there's an organized force out to kill you for valuable cash and prizes you're aware of this threat.

You have the option to learn how to play the game better to avoid getting hit by Hulkageddon. In the process you'll learn how to avoid getting hit during the other 50 weeks. Or maybe you'll just lose a bunch of ships. Generally when you get ganked, though, its not because someone wants to ruin your day in particular. Its because you're an easy target. If you learn not to be an easy target, you'll survive.

It enriches the game in that players are now playing a part usually reserved for NPC's. A world without conflict is a dull world. Its more interesting when you have bad guys. ISK/hour isn't the goal of everyone playing the game. Many of us are motivated by fun, however we define it. Hulkageddon provides that fun for some people. Hooray for them.


I was aware before, to be honest. It's not like hulkageddon can't be dealt with simply and easily by shifting behaviors until people get tired of the lulz and the prizes are awarded. You could take five, work on your probe skills, shift to missioning, play your alt MMO a little bit, trade, etc...Again, solo players know the risks already, this doesn't add anything new. The thoughful player of any type already recognizes and deals with danger, carebear soloist or no.

As for interesting, generally the goal in this game seems to be make it interesting for you, punishing for the one in the sights. I'm not going to debate that point though, or players versus npc in general. My point is that people should recognize negative interaction for what it is, negative, and not try and candycoat it. EVE is fun for many people because you have the freedom to make it not fun for others.





Quote:
There isn't a certain way, in terms of a single path to take. There are, however, tactics that are more effective. Whether or not you choose to use those is entirely your option. Just like life, though, you can expect to reap the consequences of your actions. As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to solo in an unarmed, unaligned Hulk that jet cans as long as you're actually at your computer while doing it. Be free! Do it how you want! Just don't be surprised when you get suicide ganked and can flipped by other free people.


Missing the point. The point is not effective or not effective, the point is the playerbase starting to use force to make the sandbox less of a sandbox and prescribe a certain way. I know very well how to be effective in this game if I wanted to. Grind up to level 4s, then join a nice big blob corp and do blobbie things.

Nothing wrong with that, but you shouldn't start to feel forced to take a path because of others. It's not danger or the lack of it as much as feeling constrained.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.01.03 09:17:00 - [143]
 

Quote:
My point is that people should recognize negative interaction for what it is, negative, and not try and candycoat it. EVE is fun for many people because you have the freedom to make it not fun for others.


Combat, for whatever reason, in a PVP centric game is not "negative interaction".

You may never fire a shot at another player, and that's fine. Even with that mindset, if you want to be truly honest with yourself, the most fun (and satisfaction) you will likely ever have in this game is avoiding that suicide gank due to preparation, awareness, and skillful piloting.

Now I suppose you can tell me that I'm wrong in that assessment, and that you find the idea of someone playing the pirate and trying to destroy your ship is abhorrent. If that really is the case and you are being truthful, then without the slightest bit of mockery intended I will reply that you are indeed playing the wrong game.

Eve is all about competition and at least a slight hint of danger in even the most secure area's. That is the foundation of this sandbox, the grit of the sand that fills it. Sure, they could have gone with the powdery white grade of sand instead of the course stuff. But if you are willing to accept that it is likely to chafe, the courser sand makes the best sand castles.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:30:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Mr Epeen on 03/01/2010 10:33:03

Originally by: Ranger 1


Combat, for whatever reason, in a PVP centric game is not "negative interaction".




If by combat you are including things like team killing, griefing, and other assorted misuse of game mechanics to gain unfair advantage, then I think you may want to rethink your opinion before making a laughable statement like that above.

Mr Epeen Cool

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:34:00 - [145]
 

All it would take is to monitor local for known Hulk ganker names. Since they are advertising that they are going to do this, and they are likely to do this in groups, then one ganker in local means more. It would also be prudent to watch for Orcas and pods on directional scanner.


Since they can warp about in capsules, and many of them could be flashy red, it might not be a bad idea to camp the gates coming in and with some boosting you might get lucky and pod one of these guys having bounties on their heads. I trust that since a miner can sit all day mining, gate-camping a ganker could be boring enough but hey a carebear with a ganker pod kill on a KB would be a Hulk-load of lulz. If a system has only one gate in or out that goes to low sec, you have a two-way camp.

It's likely that the Orca that spews the gank ships could be on SS waiting to spring, so use of combat probes and Orcas "in the middle of nowhere" having no reason to be there are also a sign. You need not have a warpable, so the deep space probes can simply give you a general or combat probes set to 32AU range to keep the probes out of range of their D-Scanners so they don't expect they are being watched.

Megathrons, Thoraxs, Thrashers - appear to be top gank ships. Some of them will even use T2 shtuff. So there are opportunities for salvagers on hand as well. The profit that comes from suicide ganking is through the use of an alt not involved - no GCC - to take the cargo. Tracking these activities could result in YOU getting the ore instead. Ninja the Hulk wrecks and the payoff of the gank drops to zero.

Finally, as I expect Forum Fu to occur and claims of futility to follow, if it's determined that there is no counter to this, then use Fourth Generation Warfare concepts: The best way to counter a superior force is to deny them a target. Let them go looking for Hulks all night and find few if any to be found. While they are doing that, they are not gate camping, ganking, or much else (like their own missionbear stuff that keeps them financed). Ultimately time and resource spent on a target that is not there means the target wins.

Wormhole space might also be a good idea. If everybody scatters to the unknowns, the target rich environment is not so rich. But if WH space is still too scarey, then find a desolate pocket to mine in. "Events" like the rely on everybody being bunched up. Spread out, make them have to search longer, deny targets, and this becomes more expensive.



Elena Laskova
Posted - 2010.01.03 10:49:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Elena Laskova on 03/01/2010 11:07:16

So easy to find kind ways to describe suicide gankers.

Combat pilots; Selfless heroes adding amusement to the game; Pirates; ... /lol.

Suicide gankers are just a random annoyance. Boring for the target. Completely predictable for both parties. Risk-free for the ganker. No combat involved.

It would be boring for the ganker too, but of course they're gankers. They're bored already. And like every loser on the planet, they're trying to drag everyone else down to their level, because they think it will make them feel better.
Originally by: Ranger 1
... Combat ... in a PVP centric game ... Eve is all about competition
EvE is an economic simulation with spaceships.

EvE's ISK-humping players have developed comforting stories to make them feel badass. Trading and competition for resources is called PvP. Running away and hiding is called combat. Killing helpless and unwilling opponents becomes "hardcore", and enhances your status.

Fools can easily fool themselves. But it doesn't work on everyone else.

Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:25:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Edited by: Mr Epeen on 03/01/2010 10:33:03

Originally by: Ranger 1


Combat, for whatever reason, in a PVP centric game is not "negative interaction".




If by combat you are including things like team killing, griefing, and other assorted misuse of game mechanics to gain unfair advantage, then I think you may want to rethink your opinion before making a laughable statement like that above.

Mr Epeen Cool


Re: "Team killing". Not sure what you are upset about here? This is a multi-player (PvP-centric) game, grouping together with a few friends to go out and kill things is pretty much the basic idea.

Re: "Griefing". This is a rather overused term. There are in fact very few means to actually grief someone in this game, CCP have made it reasonably clear what they consider "grief play" and will take steps against the griefer to stop them. It seems that many people define griefing by standards they learnt in other, non-sandbox, games. These definitions have very little meaning in EVE, and rightly so, this is what sets EVE apart (for better or worse)from just about every other game out there.

Re:"Unfair advantage". There is no such thing in EVE. Every option in-game exists for every player, any mechanic used against you is there for you to use against someone else. The only constraints to your play are those you impose upon yourself.

If CCP thought that suicide ganking was a broken mechanic, or was in some way detrimental to the game, I am sure they would of taken steps to remove it already. Those that are organising and taking part in Hulkageddon, and other similar practices are simply trying to remain true to one of the most basic principals of EVE, namely:
Non-consensual PvP can happen anywhere at any time. This is Intended. This is EVE. This is GREATVery Happy

For the record. I have never taken part in a suicide gank, nor will I. However I would never advocate the removal of others choice to do so.

fatherted1989
Red Horizon Inc
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:31:00 - [148]
 

how many painters for a torp raven to hit a hulk well? 2?

Boink'urr
Minmatar
Wasserette De Tarthorst
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:39:00 - [149]
 

Hi-sec miners will simply have to adept a little.

Mine in a Covetor for 2 weeks - fully insure it and keep it aligned. Sure you'll make a little less, but you also will have a no risk operation since you'll be fully refunded when ganked, if even ganked at all since there's no 'lulz' in ganking a fully insured lulz i don't care Covetor. Hell keep 2 spares at hand.

Covetors and full insurance are there for a reason.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:45:00 - [150]
 

I'd be more sympathetic to stuff like Hulkageddon if suicide ganking weren't so friggin painless. ISK loss? Pfft, you can cover an insured t1 gankgeddon with like 20 minutes of lvl4 grinding or a couple hours' passive pos income. It wouldn't even register if we're talking destroyer swarm. Sec hit? Nothing a day sniping at .0 rats won't fix.

Originally by: Solar Blade
The only part in eve that currently seems to be somewhat spared of this is wormhole space.


This is mostly random, but last time I was in a WH it was full of AFK miners. It ended rather poorly...

You do bring up an interesting point though. W-space rules of engagement turn no-risk ganking and 3:1 odds "pvp" on its head, and does provide some rather interesting encounters. Unfortunately, people who know a lot more about industry than me have told me the ISK/hour of actually living there does not compare favorably to orca mining or lvl4. Maybe CCP will look into it now that .0 denizens have their carrot.


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