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groovemachine
Posted - 2009.12.29 04:50:00 - [1]
 

I want to mine moons in lowsec empire space (the lowsec systems nestled between highsec systems) on my ISK-alt and don't plan on spending much time on it. So Here are my questions:

  • Will I need any faction standings to set up a POS on a moon in lowsec?


  • What are the risks involved in setting these up in 'empire lowsec'?


  • What skills should I be looking at for this kind of work?


  • What is a good estimate for a startup cost?


  • How much profit can an operation like this pull in compared to a highsec hulk mining op?



LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.12.29 07:24:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 29/12/2009 07:25:28
Originally by: groovemachine
don't plan on spending much time on it.


Meaning it won't pay much because EVERYONE is looking for the passive income. If it paid, there'd be no empty moons. And, there aren't any empty moons that have the rare minerals that are the bottleneck to T2 production (where the money is).

Will I need any faction standings to set up a POS on a moon in lowsec?
No. Just be sure the system is .3 or lower. .4 can't anchor a moon harvesting array.

What are the risks involved in setting these up in 'empire lowsec'?
It getting attacked by people that want the components or the moon.. Once the tower is popped the other modules can be unanchored and taken.

What skills should I be looking at for this kind of work?
Anchoring is all you need to pu up the POS, fuel it, and put it online, then anchor and online the harvestor, silos, reactors...

But, you might want starbase defence so you can take control of the guns if attacked.


What is a good estimate for a startup cost?
Medium or large. Tower: 360 million large or 200 million medium. Guns + Hardener arrays: hundreds of millions. Harvester, silos, reactor, reaction blueprints.... hundred million easy, if you are doin one simple reaction. A lot more if you are running a large ower and trying to do a complex.

Going to add some researhch labs also? 100 million each.

Then there is the... oh... 80 million a month to run a medium or 150 million+ for large.

In short, I wasn't going to try it without atleast 1 billion on hand.

Is your hauler going to get popped when you haul your weekly load of fuel out to the POS every week? Your moon isn't likely to produce both items you need for your simple reaction, meaning you are buying the other and hauling it in... don't get popped with your hauler full. Then you have to haul your completed minerals out to sell them.



How much profit can an operation like this pull in compared to a highsec hulk mining op?

I have to admit, I haven't done it.... but I surveyed some moons and ran market prices for what I could react. Nothing came CLOSE to paying the fuel. Not even a fourth of the fuel.

Now..... I ran the numbers pre-dominion. I've not recalculated for higher yields and new market prices....

However, what I found is that moon mining was for large and powerful corps that control entire systems (or multi systems) so can move about freely and have access to the better moons of their choice.

And if you happen to find an easter egg of a moon that produces well, odds are someone will see your station, probe the moon, and then come take the egg from you.

groovemachine
Posted - 2009.12.29 07:45:00 - [3]
 

Well, trading takes up a lot of time and I can never seem to find good trade routes so I thought about moon mining... the fuel costs sound stupidly expensive.

Damn, what to do. Confused

Darcon Kylote
Posted - 2009.12.29 13:28:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: groovemachine
Well, trading takes up a lot of time and I can never seem to find good trade routes so I thought about moon mining... the fuel costs sound stupidly expensive.

Damn, what to do. Confused


Mine the ice yourself, that way the fuel is free, and even a moon with nothing but atmospheric gases generates a nice passive income. Those moons are usually free for some reason.

And if you mine the ice in lowsec, you won't be bothered by can flippers.

You will need to fit a faction shield booster on your mackinaw to tank the lowsec rats, then you're good to go.

Also, if you have an orca, you can bring it to the belt, eject from it, and mine in the mackinaw, using the orca as a big jetcan.

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.12.29 14:59:00 - [5]
 

LMFAO truely, eject from the orca, lol, come on no one still does that lol, especially after the dozen blogs talking about the idiots trying to do it lol

Mollywop
Posted - 2009.12.29 18:38:00 - [6]
 

I actually laughed. Ice is free :)

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.29 18:54:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Darcon Kylote

And if you mine the ice in lowsec, you won't be bothered by can flippers.



Yeah just some random pirates gangs and roaming gangs that shoot anything that moves. Not to mention trying to get that damn POS up defore someone shows up to blow you up.

jnb
Black Ash State Services
Posted - 2009.12.29 19:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Darcon Kylote
Mine the ice yourself, that way the fuel is free

:facepalm:

Agent Known
Posted - 2009.12.29 21:42:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: jnb
Originally by: Darcon Kylote
Mine the ice yourself, that way the fuel is free

:facepalm:


Fixed.

Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
Posted - 2009.12.29 22:19:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Darcon Kylote
Originally by: groovemachine
Well, trading takes up a lot of time and I can never seem to find good trade routes so I thought about moon mining... the fuel costs sound stupidly expensive.

Damn, what to do. Confused


Mine the ice yourself, that way the fuel is free, and even a moon with nothing but atmospheric gases generates a nice passive income. Those moons are usually free for some reason.

And if you mine the ice in lowsec, you won't be bothered by can flippers.

You will need to fit a faction shield booster on your mackinaw to tank the lowsec rats, then you're good to go.

Also, if you have an orca, you can bring it to the belt, eject from it, and mine in the mackinaw, using the orca as a big jetcan.


If you are either joking or 100% serious, that is a hilarious post. Laughing

Phunket
Posted - 2009.12.29 23:43:00 - [11]
 

Since most of the questions were answered already here is couple more things to think over. Current market prices will bring up running costs for the Large Tower to and about 240 mil per month. In that case all the materials needed to run it are bought and brought in and all the modules are kept online along with all the defences.

Will you get attacked. It depends. If someone really wants it they will attack it. Thing is to make it as expensive for them to attack it as possible. ****Star set up comes to mind here.

Is it worth it. I would say depending on the moon. I have surveyed close to 300 moons in the area where ia am based and best moon i found so far had 3 tier I reaction components and 1 tier II component. Granted the tier I components could be reacted into something else but even with that in mind maximum pull from one moon would be around 80mil worth in reacted materials which is still 3 times smaller then the actual fuel costs.

Now if u still want to go ahead with it advise would be to keep refining arrays and mobile lab inside hangar untill needed. Reason. No need to give more reasons to attack ur station.

Good luck

Deathvoucher
Easy Co.
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.12.30 00:05:00 - [12]
 

groove, running a reaction pos is really the only way to make isk without moon mining
as all the useful moons are taken

360 for the tower 150 a month for fuel 200-350 for mods easy, so yeah the 1 bill start up isnt a bad estimation

and the last set of numbers i ran said that even buying the mats will yeild profit, now how much profit, you can figure that out for yourself

hin hint: http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/

Phunket
Posted - 2009.12.30 00:16:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Deathvoucher
groove, running a reaction pos is really the only way to make isk without moon mining
as all the useful moons are taken

360 for the tower 150 a month for fuel 200-350 for mods easy, so yeah the 1 bill start up isnt a bad estimation


hin hint: http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/


150 mil per month in fuel cost for large station is not correct at least for the set up i used. 200 mil per month is more of a realistic price rather than repeating the same number over and over again taken from old guides and forum posts. If needed i can quote the prices but they will be a week old at least.


Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.12.30 01:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Phunket
Originally by: Deathvoucher
groove, running a reaction pos is really the only way to make isk without moon mining
as all the useful moons are taken

360 for the tower 150 a month for fuel 200-350 for mods easy, so yeah the 1 bill start up isnt a bad estimation


hin hint: http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/


150 mil per month in fuel cost for large station is not correct at least for the set up i used. 200 mil per month is more of a realistic price rather than repeating the same number over and over again taken from old guides and forum posts. If needed i can quote the prices but they will be a week old at least.




If you're using a faction tower 150 mill isn't an unreasonable estimate I think. I budget about 175 mill/30 days for a regular Caldari large tower but I don't update fuel prices all that often. Amarr towers are cheaper (helium isotopes are cheaper than nitrogen isotopes) but can't speak to the others.

Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.12.30 03:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Zifrian
Originally by: Darcon Kylote
Originally by: groovemachine
Well, trading takes up a lot of time and I can never seem to find good trade routes so I thought about moon mining... the fuel costs sound stupidly expensive.

Damn, what to do. Confused


Mine the ice yourself, that way the fuel is free, and even a moon with nothing but atmospheric gases generates a nice passive income. Those moons are usually free for some reason.

And if you mine the ice in lowsec, you won't be bothered by can flippers.

You will need to fit a faction shield booster on your mackinaw to tank the lowsec rats, then you're good to go.

Also, if you have an orca, you can bring it to the belt, eject from it, and mine in the mackinaw, using the orca as a big jetcan.


If you are either joking or 100% serious, that is a hilarious post. Laughing


I think he's 100% serious about getting to the nearest locator agent and finding where this guy is mining free ice in low-sec with an abandoned Orca and a mackinaw with faction mods.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.30 13:24:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 30/12/2009 13:26:07

For what its worth:

A small tower, plus silo and moon harvester (no defenses) with about 2 months fuel wil be about 200 Mil.

If you're moon mining something with a unit value of over 900, you'll generally be making a very small profit.

Small fuel (roughly equals) - 900k / hour [this is full CPU/Power usage on a Small Gallente tower @ Essence prices]
M fuel - 1800k / hour
L fuel - 3600k / hour

Hauling time should also be factored in. There are a lot easier and less risky ways to make more ISK passively as mentioned like trading in some named modules for example.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.12.30 15:45:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 30/12/2009 13:26:07

For what its worth:

A small tower, plus silo and moon harvester (no defenses) with about 2 months fuel wil be about 200 Mil.

If you're moon mining something with a unit value of over 900, you'll generally be making a very small profit.

Small fuel (roughly equals) - 900k / hour [this is full CPU/Power usage on a Small Gallente tower @ Essence prices]
M fuel - 1800k / hour
L fuel - 3600k / hour

Hauling time should also be factored in. There are a lot easier and less risky ways to make more ISK passively as mentioned like trading in some named modules for example.


3,600,000 isk/hour for a large tower? Are you sure you didn't misplace a decimal point?

Either that or Essence prices are off the charts.

Murrigan
Posted - 2009.12.30 15:48:00 - [18]
 

Well I was to start a tread but I am sort of hijacking this by adding some noob POS questions.

I am trying to set a small test POS in a Moon, I have read stuff but most of the guides have 3+ Years.

1 - You need to be in a PC corp to have a POS, no NPC or Militia corps will do right ?
2 - If you are the CEO can you operate the POS at will or need certain roles, and what the diffrent roles do POS wise ?
3 - Can you give acess to the POS to non-corp members (not only shield password, taking stuff, recharging it and such) ?
4 - How many POS can there be per Moon ?
5 - What is the formula for Moon Harvesting ? In other words how does material abundance (1-4) affect it ?
6 - How many Harvesters can harvest the same resource at the same time ?
7 - Do you need some skills to operate, manage, better the operation of POS ?
8 - When does the POS enter reinforced mode ?
9 - Do you get some sort of warning if your POS is under attack ?
10 - To active use the weapons what skills (if any) you need ?
11 - Is there a maximum range the "modules" (harvesters, guns, etc) can be placed from the Tower ?

Thanks a lot for the help.

jnb
Black Ash State Services
Posted - 2009.12.30 16:45:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: jnb on 30/12/2009 16:49:48
Originally by: Murrigan
Well I was to start a tread but I am sort of hijacking this by adding some noob POS questions.

I am trying to set a small test POS in a Moon, I have read stuff but most of the guides have 3+ Years.

1 - You need to be in a PC corp to have a POS, no NPC or Militia corps will do right ?
2 - If you are the CEO can you operate the POS at will or need certain roles, and what the diffrent roles do POS wise ?
3 - Can you give acess to the POS to non-corp members (not only shield password, taking stuff, recharging it and such) ?
4 - How many POS can there be per Moon ?
5 - What is the formula for Moon Harvesting ? In other words how does material abundance (1-4) affect it ?
6 - How many Harvesters can harvest the same resource at the same time ?
7 - Do you need some skills to operate, manage, better the operation of POS ?
8 - When does the POS enter reinforced mode ?
9 - Do you get some sort of warning if your POS is under attack ?
10 - To active use the weapons what skills (if any) you need ?
11 - Is there a maximum range the "modules" (harvesters, guns, etc) can be placed from the Tower ?

Thanks a lot for the help.


1. yes, player corp only
2. Yes you can, as can all Directors. There are specific roles relating to POS management for non-directors.
a) Starbase Defense Operator can control POS guns (with Starbase Defence skill)
b) Starbase Fuel Technician has access to the POS fuel bay
c) Config Starbase Equipment can do all the above, plus anchor, unanchor, move POS equipment
3. Non corp members can be given the POS shield password for access inside the shields, but that's it.
4. One
5. Abundance, I believe, still doesn't mean anything.
6. One moon harvester for each moongoo type.
7. Yes. Anchoring (obv) and Starbase Defence (if you want to control guns). Beyond that, you'll need industrial / freighter skills to haul stuff to and from the POS.
8. When it has lost 75% of shields. It comes out of reinforced mode once you have repaired shields to 50%.
9. Yes, mail notifications get sent to corp directors (and POS managers? <-- not sure about this one)
10. Starbase Defense Management, 1 module can be used per level of the skill.
11. 5km from the outside of the POS shield, and not any further away than an additional 10km or for a large Control Tower within 50km of the control tower itself but no closer than 40km :) Harvesters and non "defence" items (but including hardeners), should be placed within the POS shield.

Hope this helps.

JNB

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.12.30 16:46:00 - [20]
 

1 - You need to be in a PC corp to have a POS, no NPC or Militia corps will do right?

Right, can't be in an NPC corp.


2 - If you are the CEO can you operate the POS at will or need certain roles, and what the diffrent roles do POS wise ?

CEO has all roles.


3 - Can you give acess to the POS to non-corp members (not only shield password, taking stuff, recharging it and such) ?

No. Only corp members can access any storage bays, storage arrays, etc.

Alliance members can kick off ME and PE jobs at a mobile lab, IF they have blueprints in a corp hanger at a station in the same solar system.


4 - How many POS can there be per Moon ?

1


7 - Do you need some skills to operate, manage, better the operation of POS ?

All you need is the ability to anchor it. The one other skill is starbase defence that lets you take control of guns and manually pick targets.

8 - When does the POS enter reinforced mode ?

After it has lost 25% of its shield.


9 - Do you get some sort of warning if your POS is under attack ?

Yes, eve mail.


10 - To active use the weapons what skills (if any) you need ?

To online the weapons, just need to be able to anchor them. They will randomally select targets, then switch targets every... min? Or is it every few min? To override the random target selection and manually control target selection, you need starbase defence skill.

11 - Is there a maximum range the "modules" (harvesters, guns, etc) can be placed from the Tower ?

Yes, each module has different distance. For example, labs and hardeners have to be inside the shield while the guns have to be outside the shield.

BUT, even though they are outside the shield, all modules have 99% structural resistance while the control tower is up. As a result, you can't really destroy the guns until the control tower is down.


As for the questions I missed, I too would like answers to those if anyone knows.

Juan Forner
Posted - 2009.12.30 16:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Murrigan
Well I was to start a tread but I am sort of hijacking this by adding some noob POS questions.

I am trying to set a small test POS in a Moon, I have read stuff but most of the guides have 3+ Years.

1 - You need to be in a PC corp to have a POS, no NPC or Militia corps will do right ?
2 - If you are the CEO can you operate the POS at will or need certain roles, and what the diffrent roles do POS wise ?
3 - Can you give acess to the POS to non-corp members (not only shield password, taking stuff, recharging it and such) ?
4 - How many POS can there be per Moon ?
5 - What is the formula for Moon Harvesting ? In other words how does material abundance (1-4) affect it ?
6 - How many Harvesters can harvest the same resource at the same time ?
7 - Do you need some skills to operate, manage, better the operation of POS ?
8 - When does the POS enter reinforced mode ?
9 - Do you get some sort of warning if your POS is under attack ?
10 - To active use the weapons what skills (if any) you need ?
11 - Is there a maximum range the "modules" (harvesters, guns, etc) can be placed from the Tower ?

Thanks a lot for the help.


I think ican answer most of these.

1- Not sure
2- You need the 3 Starbase Skills set by CEO or Director
3- Access is only for Corp or Alliance
4- 1 POS per moon
5- To moon Harvest u need a Harvester and Silo. Doesn't make any difference what u are mining. Only what u do with the moon mins makes a difference
6- 1 per resource
7- Nope (Starbase Defence management allows you to use guns if you are attacked)
8- POS enters reinforced when Shield and armour are dead
9- Yea you get a mail (every 30 mins i believe if it lasts that long with an update to the maount of shield left)
10- see 7
11- Keep non combat stuff inside the Forcefield and Combat stuff as close as possible so they can help each other

If you need any other info shout me ingame

jnb
Black Ash State Services
Posted - 2009.12.30 16:54:00 - [22]
 

Just to clarify on the "reinforced" number - LHA are saying the same thing, but differently Smile. Reinforced occurs when you have lost 75% of your shields - ie your shield level has been reduced from 100% down to 25%.

Murrigan
Posted - 2009.12.30 17:11:00 - [23]
 

Thank you for the help.

Just to clarify 2 things to end please:

1 - Abundance has nothing to do with production.
2 - Moon Harvester II does it exists ?

Thanks a lot.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.12.30 18:29:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss

A small tower, plus silo and moon harvester (no defenses) with about 2 months fuel wil be about 200 Mil.


So, you're just going to pull the fuel and then sell it? You aren't going to react it?

Hmmmm...

Tekutep
Posted - 2009.12.30 18:41:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Murrigan
Thank you for the help.

Just to clarify 2 things to end please:

1 - Abundance has nothing to do with production.
2 - Moon Harvester II does it exists ?

Thanks a lot.



1. You can have one moon harvester on something per abundance level. So if you have Silicates abundance 2, you can have 2 harvesters. Abundance 1 means 1 harvester.

2. Nope

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.31 00:04:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 30/12/2009 13:26:07

For what its worth:

A small tower, plus silo and moon harvester (no defenses) with about 2 months fuel wil be about 200 Mil.

If you're moon mining something with a unit value of over 900, you'll generally be making a very small profit.

Small fuel (roughly equals) - 900k / hour [this is full CPU/Power usage on a Small Gallente tower @ Essence prices]
M fuel - 1800k / hour
L fuel - 3600k / hour

Hauling time should also be factored in. There are a lot easier and less risky ways to make more ISK passively as mentioned like trading in some named modules for example.


3,600,000 isk/hour for a large tower? Are you sure you didn't misplace a decimal point?

Either that or Essence prices are off the charts.


Yeah I think I did miss it by 1 place : 90k, 180k, 360k - The Small, Med, Large fuel relationship steps up 1,2,4 - So a Large is roughly 4 times the cost of a small.

I've based my rough figures on fuel costs for small towers in Essence. I wanted to know the fuel per hour cost so I could work out what was worth moon mining. That is how I got the 900 per unit since 90k/100 units per hour.

This means at current Jita prices even small tower mining Evaporite [1200/unit or so] gases will net you a small profit.

Of course more ISK is made by the reacting - but for a fairly passive income you could do worse. Cheers.



 

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