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usrevenge
Posted - 2009.12.17 21:26:00 - [31]
 

i kinda wish they were your wrecks for a while, then became abandoned... i wish it was reasonable to make aliving off lazy people. make wrecks last alot longer and let us warp to old area's where people didnt salvage and take what they obviously werent going to.
i h8 people who show up in my mission areas but i take comfort in knowing in the hour they waste stealing my stuff they made next to nothing in loot.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.17 21:35:00 - [32]
 

Quote:
i h8 people who show up in my mission areas but i take comfort in knowing in the hour they waste stealing my stuff they made next to nothing in loot.


Well generally the only people who salvage are the ones who don't have the SP to come back and gank you repeatedly. ..these people don't have the SP to run l4 missions anyway.

Those who do will fly around in a stabber, kestrel, or other great loot boat and grab the loot and the salvage.

Avo Daith
Public Venture Enterprises
Posted - 2009.12.17 22:11:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: usrevenge
i kinda wish they were your wrecks for a while, then became abandoned... i wish it was reasonable to make aliving off lazy people. make wrecks last alot longer and let us warp to old area's where people didnt salvage and take what they obviously werent going to.
i h8 people who show up in my mission areas but i take comfort in knowing in the hour they waste stealing my stuff they made next to nothing in loot.


Me too; maybe they could become abandoned automatically after the first hour, and abandoned wrecks and cans became scannable (i.e. with probes)? Also make abandoned items tractorable by anyone. Not that I object to current system otherwise.

CLETUS DEADMAN
Posted - 2009.12.17 23:16:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: CLETUS DEADMAN on 17/12/2009 23:16:40
Letís do the math, shall we:
Ammo: you
Guns: you
Ship: you
Skill books: you
Training time: you
Standing: you
Mission: you
Wreck: everybody

Hrmm, letís try that again:
8(1) = 300,000

I wonder how long it took to come up with that one?

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2009.12.17 23:23:00 - [35]
 

I do the 2 paid accounts "thing" to avoid ninja salvagers. The moment a room is empty, my alt is in salvaging it. Since I can tractor the wrecks and they can't I celan up quickly.

If a ninja shows up before the room is empty, I just leave and let the NPCs have at them. They usually leave pretty quickly.

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.18 01:04:00 - [36]
 

Subject change. So what happened to being with Teh Ninjaz, Kahega? They finally get tired of you scaring off the carebears with your ugly avatar? YARRRR!!

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.12.18 02:02:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Junko Togawa
Subject change. So what happened to being with Teh Ninjaz, Kahega? They finally get tired of you scaring off the carebears with your ugly avatar? YARRRR!!


I felt like pewpewing stuff other than random idiots in failfit missionboats.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.12.18 02:26:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 18/12/2009 02:27:00
Originally by: usrevenge
i kinda wish they were your wrecks for a while, then became abandoned... i wish it was reasonable to make aliving off lazy people. make wrecks last alot longer and let us warp to old area's where people didnt salvage and take what they obviously werent going to.
i h8 people who show up in my mission areas but i take comfort in knowing in the hour they waste stealing my stuff they made next to nothing in loot.


I was thinking that the other day, what with the new changes. As a general rule I don't bother with wrecks outside my base and a lot go to waste. Maybe have them scanable and free (loot) after an hour.

Anyway what the lazy players like the Op do not realise is that there are MANY very high quality level 4 agents with hardly any players in the system and no ninja salvagers. It's just those of us that spotted this after some basic research tend not to shout it out.

Drevar
Posted - 2009.12.18 12:13:00 - [39]
 

I have no problems at all with the concept of others being able to scan you down in missions and take your wrecks or even the loot. What gets me is the freaky logic CCP has applied to wrecks.

How stupid would it be to be able to tow away a wrecked or broken down car on the side of the road with no ramifications, as long as you leave the stuff inside behind. If you take the CDs or spare tire, though, you can be chased down and thrown in jail.

Abandoning a wreck makes no sense either. How can you abandon something that doesn't belong to you in the first place? Either it is yours or it isn't. CCP needs to go one way or the other; either wrecks AND thier loot are free-for-all, or they belong to the person/corp/fleet who "created" them and can be defended as such.

Drev

CLETUS DEADMAN
Posted - 2009.12.18 12:53:00 - [40]
 

In the engineering world, if you have a problem you can't fix (or too expensive to fix) you document it and call it a feature.

"It isn't yours, but you can abandon it."
"You created it, but it belongs to everybody."
Read: We don't know, but we can duplicate the results consistently, so this is what we want. lol...

Scout Ops
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.12.18 16:38:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Scout Ops on 18/12/2009 16:39:18
tasteful tears!!!1 Razz


salvage wrecks are not yours. They are space junk, whoever passing through is able to salvage them. Its like paupers looking inside trash containers...

on the other hand, they do it for their profit -ISK- so its clearly no griefing.

and FYI this is a multiplayer game. If you want to play a solo game, unplug your modem and install Hello Kitty Solo Edition - Grinding Expansion 3.0, I heard it rules!!

Scout Ops
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.12.18 16:44:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ultranoia
Salvaging, unlike mission running, is a competitive profession.

Just be glad that your missions aren't given out to everybody to finish, as they should have - aka an open contract system that anyone with the required standings can accept and the first to turn it in gets the agent's reward Very Happy




That would be the logical way.

But now figure the amount of tears and ragequits... CCP will never do it Rolling Eyes

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.12.18 16:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: CLETUS DEADMAN
In the engineering world, if you have a problem you can't fix (or too expensive to fix) you document it and call it a feature.

"It isn't yours, but you can abandon it."
"You created it, but it belongs to everybody."
Read: We don't know, but we can duplicate the results consistently, so this is what we want. lol...


You sir, are as wrong in this thread as you are in the other one. Salvage does not exist until someone uses a salvage module on a wreck. Whoever "made" the wreck, gets the bounty and the loot.

Salvage, on the other hand, doesn't even exist except as potential in a wreck. (Just in case you missed it in the other thread? Salvage does NOT show up on the overview...Rolling Eyes)

CLETUS DEADMAN
Posted - 2009.12.18 17:45:00 - [44]
 

Maybe each could run their own missions and collect their own loot and salvage to support the salvage industry that way?

The concept can't be too far off since there are so many posts on the subject. I found two easily.


Selrid Miamarr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.18 19:03:00 - [45]
 

I think the problem is that CCP designed salvage to be such for one reason, and players quickly discovered another.

IMO, the reason why there is no flagging of salvaging wrecks is to enable third parties to provide a salvage service for ISK, and also to salvage clearly abandoned wrecks that players leave behind when they speedkill for bounties. That actually was one of the interesting things for me, and I considered running a salvage corp at one time.

However, players found that it was very easy to salavge wrecks in missions, as the players involved could not resist adequately due to the lack of wrecks being declared "taken" for the above reasons. There were also many people doing such, and leaving many wrecks behind that they often could only salvage after the fight. So the ninja was born.

The idea that this is a legit part of the game is silly. Who killed the wrecks in the first place to turn them into a salvagable item? Another player. They are not "free for all" in that sense, because if the other player did not kill them, the ninja salvager would have nothing. They are not a natural resource that exists without player interaction, like mineable asteroids. They are very similar to jetcanning ore, except one has a flagging mechanism and one doesn't. Both require a player's interaction to transform them into a state a third party can interact with in space.

I think the argument that EVE is lawless is fine, and that ninja salvaging is theft, and here, theft should be guarded against. However it is absurd to watch people try and defend it as a legitimate practice. It is stealing, regardless of having flagging mechanisms or not, and many people will get annoyed at that.

Opportunity Costs
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.18 19:40:00 - [46]
 

Stealing is a part of EVE. Get over it.

And the only reason looting is flagged, is to enhance 'consensual' PVP and/or canflipping techniques Cool

Geldar Wroontik
Gallente
Galactic System Lords Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.18 21:47:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
The idea that this is a legit part of the game is silly. Who killed the wrecks in the first place to turn them into a salvagable item? Another player. They are not "free for all" in that sense, because if the other player did not kill them, the ninja salvager would have nothing.

You need to a) not apply cause-and-effect to this, and b) let go of the idea that wrecks belong to anyone.

This also isn't the same as a car wreck sitting on the side of a road. This is basically big masses of garbage in space. What happens when garbage is left in a bin/on the side of the road? The garbagemen come along and pick it up. If you leave, say, an old couch out the front of your house on the side of the road, someone may come along and pick it up. Where I live we've got a council cleanup where people put old junk out the front and they come along and collect it en masse.

I've only ever salvaged my stuff or the wrecks of a corp mate, but ninjas are basically the garbagemen and women of EVE. If you don't clean up your own mess, they'll do it for you.

Working as intended.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.12.18 22:16:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr

I think the argument that EVE is lawless is fine, and that ninja salvaging is theft, and here, theft should be guarded against. However it is absurd to watch people try and defend it as a legitimate practice. It is stealing, regardless of having flagging mechanisms or not, and many people will get annoyed at that.


Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)



The developers own words.

Which part of this are you having trouble with? It has nothing to do with "real life" (its a game), and it has nothing to do with "right" or "wrong"... It is an intended effect of how the game works.

"Ninja" salvaging - working as intended. Inspite of your feelings.

Selrid Miamarr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.19 00:34:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Selrid Miamarr on 19/12/2009 00:39:50
Geldar:

If it is garbage, then why is there complaints about stealing? To call it garbage means someone has thrown it away, and a player doing a mission with the intent to salvage the wrecks does not desire to throw it away. A ninja salvager comes, and salvages the wrecks a player intends to salvage, be it after or even during the mission.

Especially now, since there is a way to truly flag a wreck as abandoned and turn it blue, this line of thought is illogical, that a wreck is merely garbage. The whole reason for anger is that the player who killed the rats wishes to also salavge them, and feels he has a claim on them. And imo rightly so, since he was the one that reduced them to a salvageable state.

Daemon:

None of those posts really conflicts my point that it is stealing. What's more, game developers never, ever admit wrongdoing if they can help it. Rather than say "Hey, we didn't think and we screwed up the salvage mechanics so people can steal unclaimed wrecks with no penalty, despite both jetcans and items from those same wrecks (which by definition, are as much garbage as the wreck themselves) both causing PvP flagging they try and spin it as a feature. That way they can leave it in place without trying to fix it.

I think I need to be more specific though. As long as it is viewed as theft and you are honest that you are stealing what another person has killed and has rights to, same as items from the wreck, I can accept that. That is part of EVE. My problem is the silly attempt to claim it is anything but stealing. I am not calling to nerf it, just lets be honest and not play semantic games. If we are not concerned about right or wrong, we shouldn't feel to justify acts of thievery as secretly moral.

Tallaran Kouros
Cryptonym Sleepers
Posted - 2009.12.19 01:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Orderius
Where do I begin, the economy of the game entails mission running, PVP, and mining but what about those guys who just like to grief others either by poding them unnecessarily or the other exploit that has been over looked.


This got me curious, so I read on.

Quote:
Yes, Iím talking about those who go out looking for mission runners just to steal their salvage...



Got as far as this and then stopped reading.

Every time someone posts about ninja salvaging, God kills a fluffy kitten[0] :(

[0] Maybe that's what happened to Cat O' Ninetails?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2009.12.19 01:56:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 19/12/2009 01:56:37
Originally by: Selrid Miamarr

None of those posts really conflicts my point that it is stealing.

Originally by: Answer from CCP

"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."


That kinda DOES, directly "conflict" (contradict) your point... ugh
Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
What's more, game developers never, ever admit wrongdoing if they can help it. Rather than say "Hey, we didn't think and we screwed up the salvage mechanics so people can steal unclaimed wrecks with no penalty, despite both jetcans and items from those same wrecks (which by definition, are as much garbage as the wreck themselves) both causing PvP flagging they try and spin it as a feature. That way they can leave it in place without trying to fix it.

I think I need to be more specific though. As long as it is viewed as theft and you are honest that you are stealing what another person has killed and has rights to, same as items from the wreck, I can accept that. That is part of EVE. My problem is the silly attempt to claim it is anything but stealing. I am not calling to nerf it, just lets be honest and not play semantic games. If we are not concerned about right or wrong, we shouldn't feel to justify acts of thievery as secretly moral.


W/E ma8 - I can see why people get tired of answering the same thing over and over... But when the dev's themselves point out that its intended to work that way... Rolling Eyes

Yeah, CCP has screwed up customer relations in the past, but seeing as this is the 29,471st thread on the subject, I'm pretty sure that CCP is aware of the issue. ESPECIALLY when multiple people have linked the dev's replys.

One more time, for those who didn't hear:
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Seems like a pretty clear answer...



Geldar Wroontik
Gallente
Galactic System Lords Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.19 04:38:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
Edited by: Selrid Miamarr on 19/12/2009 00:39:50
Geldar:

If it is garbage, then why is there complaints about stealing? To call it garbage means someone has thrown it away, and a player doing a mission with the intent to salvage the wrecks does not desire to throw it away. A ninja salvager comes, and salvages the wrecks a player intends to salvage, be it after or even during the mission.

Especially now, since there is a way to truly flag a wreck as abandoned and turn it blue, this line of thought is illogical, that a wreck is merely garbage. The whole reason for anger is that the player who killed the rats wishes to also salavge them, and feels he has a claim on them. And imo rightly so, since he was the one that reduced them to a salvageable state.

So salvage while you mission? Use a drone ship with salvagers and tractors, or maybe a Marauder if you've got the cash. Or bring an alt along in a salvage ship, or a corpmate, or an unaffiliated friend. There are lots of different methods of circumventing getting ninja'd.

The loot is not garbage - if you want to compare with real life laws, I'm fairly sure in the case of a ship sunk at sea the cargo still belongs to whoever owned the ship - but the salvage is. When you abandon a wreck the loot becomes everyone's.

Basically, if you aren't willing to put in the effort to get to the salvage before the ninjas do, or aren't willing to move away from a crowded hub to get missions to avoid getting ninja'd, then you deserve what you get.

Nysse Alpha
Gallente
Forward Thinking Industries
Posted - 2009.12.19 11:33:00 - [53]
 

I'm someone i'd wager like many of you, who has come from "other MMORPGs", where you can run around and do what you want, without consequence, and what you kill, is yours, without contest. But I find EVE, to be a genuinely refreshing change of pace.

It has forced me to adapt, it has forced me to believe that if i'm not grouped with those I trust, then i'm on my own, and I need to train and fit my ship to be able to hadle that. And if i'm not fully capable, then I need to accept the possible losses. I'm still really new to EVE, but that's something i've really come to enjoy about EVE. The idea that nothing is really truly "MINE", and I have to work for it.

If a pirate flies into my mission and starts looting and salvaging the wrecks, sure it sucks, but while the game gives the tools to do that, it also gives me the tools to minimize the loses. The first time I got pirated, I went back to EFT, and played around until I had a fit where I could comfortably do the missions and salvage at the same time. I didn't cry, I LEARNED.

The idea of freedom, that feeling that you can do anything you want, be anything you want, is an idea that has all but disappeared in the MMO industry, and I think only still exists in EVE. Don't take it away, and if anything, make the danger more prevalent. I ventured into LowSec for the first time tonight. I did missions and built up some ISK. I calculated my loses, made sure I was insured, and went ratting in 0.1 space, in a system I checked out via the map. And through a momentary lapse in judgement, I lost my prized ship. I learned valuable lessons (namely, don't go get another beer without warping to a safe spot), but it also reinforced what I've come to enjoy in EVE: that space is a lonely, dangerous place. And you need to take care of yourself.

If anything, after my experience tonight/this morning, I think Empire should be a little more dangerous, not less.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.12.19 12:18:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 19/12/2009 12:19:09
Originally by: Nysse Alpha
I'm someone i'd wager like many of you, who has come from "other MMORPGs", where you can run around and do what you want, without consequence, and what you kill, is yours, without contest. But I find EVE, to be a genuinely refreshing change of pace.

It has forced me to adapt, it has forced me to believe that if i'm not grouped with those I trust, then i'm on my own, and I need to train and fit my ship to be able to hadle that. And if i'm not fully capable, then I need to accept the possible losses. I'm still really new to EVE, but that's something i've really come to enjoy about EVE. The idea that nothing is really truly "MINE", and I have to work for it.

If a pirate flies into my mission and starts looting and salvaging the wrecks, sure it sucks, but while the game gives the tools to do that, it also gives me the tools to minimize the loses. The first time I got pirated, I went back to EFT, and played around until I had a fit where I could comfortably do the missions and salvage at the same time. I didn't cry, I LEARNED.

The idea of freedom, that feeling that you can do anything you want, be anything you want, is an idea that has all but disappeared in the MMO industry, and I think only still exists in EVE. Don't take it away, and if anything, make the danger more prevalent. I ventured into LowSec for the first time tonight. I did missions and built up some ISK. I calculated my loses, made sure I was insured, and went ratting in 0.1 space, in a system I checked out via the map. And through a momentary lapse in judgement, I lost my prized ship. I learned valuable lessons (namely, don't go get another beer without warping to a safe spot), but it also reinforced what I've come to enjoy in EVE: that space is a lonely, dangerous place. And you need to take care of yourself.

If anything, after my experience tonight/this morning, I think Empire should be a little more dangerous, not less.


There are often new players who start EVE then instantly try and bring other game mechanics into the game. These sorts of posts are very common. They completely miss the fact that the main attraction for many of us is the fact the game does not patronise and expects us to find the solutions to a problem (and avoiding ninja salvager is very easy with a bit of thought) Lazy players expect the game to look after them like mummy and miss the fact many of us play EVE as it does NOT do that.

I would never 'grief' , scam or gank but I realise the fact players can do that makes the game more fun for me. This element of danger is missing in other games which ultimately makes them pointless. It's also why EVE has lasted so many years and is growing at a good rate.

There are many games that cater to the Ops attitude and good luck to them, I wish they would leave EVE alone and stop trying to make all MMORPG'a an online version of MacDonalds where everyone is a winner and the marketing department calls the shots.

Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2009.12.19 14:50:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
None of those posts really conflicts my point that it is stealing. What's more, game developers never, ever admit wrongdoing if they can help it. Rather than say "Hey, we didn't think and we screwed up the salvage mechanics so people can steal unclaimed wrecks with no penalty, despite both jetcans and items from those same wrecks (which by definition, are as much garbage as the wreck themselves) both causing PvP flagging they try and spin it as a feature. That way they can leave it in place without trying to fix it.
When salvaging was introduced, you actually had to remove the loot before beeing able to salvage the wreck. CCP then changed the mechanic so a can with the loot would drop after salvaging. So this is clearly NOT an oversight or something that "needs to be fixed".

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
I think I need to be more specific though. As long as it is viewed as theft and you are honest that you are stealing what another person has killed and has rights to, same as items from the wreck, I can accept that. That is part of EVE. My problem is the silly attempt to claim it is anything but stealing. I am not calling to nerf it, just lets be honest and not play semantic games. If we are not concerned about right or wrong, we shouldn't feel to justify acts of thievery as secretly moral.
You might want to look up the definition of theft. As others have said, wrecks are not yours. Just as much as the asteriod you mine is not yours. Therefore it can't be stolen. The only one playing semantic games is you by saying it is stealing.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2009.12.19 18:44:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 19/12/2009 18:46:35
Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 19/12/2009 18:45:26
Quote:
I say no to this and feel that just like in other games these missions should be locked so that others cannot get into them to take someone elseís hard work away from them, it is commonly employed in other MMORGís so why is this one so different?


So you think that anyone in the game should be able to have an unreachable 'Safespot' in any system that they can get a mission in???

I love it when people post this sort of crud without giving a moments thought to how it would affect the game as a whole... just concerned with their own little issue and spout ideas that would only assist their own selfish needs.




Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.12.19 21:59:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Selrid Miamarr
Edited by: Selrid Miamarr on 19/12/2009 00:39:50
Geldar:


Rather than say "Hey, we didn't think and we screwed up the salvage mechanics so people can steal unclaimed wrecks with no penalty, despite both jetcans and items from those same wrecks (which by definition, are as much garbage as the wreck themselves) both causing PvP flagging they try and spin it as a feature. That way they can leave it in place without trying to fix it.




As I'm pretty sure you're new around here, I'll just point out that jetcan flipping didn't originally cause aggro either. Miners were all /wrists about that, so it was changed. Then they cried about how people would flip their cans, then come back with a combat ship to kill them if they shot at the flipper. I believe it was at this point that CCP canceled their bear preservation program. Cry all you want, salvaging isn't stealing.

Selrid Miamarr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.20 00:13:00 - [58]
 

Doesn't bother me any, if I see a ninja, i just will blow up every single wreck. If its not stealing to do so, then its not destroying property if i do so. If he comes I lose money either way, so its much better to deny him his money.

I can also locate them, follow them around, and destroy other wrecks they try to salvage before they can access them. Its garbage, and needs to be cleaned up. They just do so too slowly.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2009.12.20 06:48:00 - [59]
 

What a hoot that people are still going on about this whole salvage thing.

Seems like a real emotional issue for those interested in it. On both sides.

But seriously now...

The salvage is worth exactly SWEET F*CK ALL these days. If I were a mission runner I wouldn't even bother going after it and if I were a ninja, I would find another way to make some ISK. Not worth the time it takes to run a salvage cycle for the ****y little amount of ISK you get since the rig change.

But, like my reterded pet dog, you people just won't let go of something. Even when it ceases to be important any more.

Sheesh Rolling Eyes

Mr Epeen

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.12.20 08:43:00 - [60]
 

Despite what some players think this game is very carebear friendly:

Loot is not FFA like some games
You lose your ship if you attack in hi sec
It's easy to travel in low sec without getting caught
Other games do NOT have missions locked at all. Instancing is for groups not solo quests. EVE does not have group PVE as standard game play.
Unlike other games there are solutions to any problem. The fact some players can't work them out is their fault.

It so boring when you see so many MMORPG forum posts from people that moan without thinking. Its this attitude that has made most MMORPG's as easy as Hello Kitty Online yet they STILL moan.


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