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blankseplocked I am sorry to say but EVE has the worst combat system ever.
 
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Mrigh Nayani
Posted - 2004.11.14 10:54:00 - [1]
 

I know many people in here are going to hate me for this and might never care to read another topic posted by me, but out of sheer frustration and anger i have to say this, "the combat in eve sucks". As long as you are fitting your uber ships with new shiny lasers, missiles or other stuff it looks intresting but when you get into actual combat the whole fighting sums up like this..
you fire a laser first and then ur enemy fires a laser, then you again fire a laser and he fires a laser, you fire a laser, and then he fires a laser, you fire a laser,he fire a laser,you fire a laser,he fires a laser............................ until one of us is dead...!!Surprised

There are so many intresting ways to combat in space something like TOP GUN combat where your ship can dodge incoming fire, lasers or missiles. It would have been better if they added some intresting moves your ships can make while in combat. Quick turns,dodging and head over turns and loops could have made it fun..but for now all i do is fly in straight line or orbit around fighting and firing my lasers..this is boring as hell.
So for now i am sticking with mining and making more money so that i can add few more ships to my collection. Then i will hop into one of my shiny new ships, take a long drive to different solar systems and then dock back into the station.Rolling Eyes

Jebidus Skari
Comply Or Die
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
Posted - 2004.11.14 10:57:00 - [2]
 

I don't agree with you Smile it's not perfect but it'll do for me.

Filiberto
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:05:00 - [3]
 

sorry to say this but you say combat issn't fun and you go back to mining??now thats boring
and you probably have been fighting NPC's or real players? cous if your fighting real players you get a real adrenaline rush.

and if you really don't like the fighting part there are other things you can do like research and stuff. and stick to that no way am I saying you are totaly wrong it could be better in some aspects.

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:08:00 - [4]
 

fly a frigate instead.

Arlen Seek
Gallente
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:13:00 - [5]
 

I couldn't emagine how the UI would be with what you sugest, hot keys for shp manuvers maybe?

The combat system in Eve is not that bad, PvP always adds an element of surprise as apose to NPC hunting. I'm not a full on PvP'r yet just because my skills aren't up to par but in frig fights with my corp just parcticsing, the combat can be fun and require a fair amount of thought in terms of what rig your running and if you are working as a team or solo. Just my 2 isk.

Naomi Venture
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:23:00 - [6]
 

Capital Starships doing barrel rolls and loops to avoid fire?

Laughing

When was the last time you saw an aircraft carrier dodge a shot?

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:23:00 - [7]
 

I sort of agree with you. EVE combat is like playing rock, paper, scissors. I liked the privateer system. You were first person, able to pilot with a joystick, you could man turrets or set them to auto. It was for a very old game, a very good system and very immersive.

EVE ships die too fast, theres not a lot of real tactical options once in a battle and lag is pretty bad. Theres no real sense of piloting a spacecraft imo.

EVE is very cool but its missing some element that the old privateer had, a certain fun factor.

ugh

Infinity Ziona

Celt Eireson
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:25:00 - [8]
 

They didn't do it that way because it would end up being similar to some of the multiplayer xwing games i.e. where the most important factor in winning is your ping time. In Eve your connection speed is not vitally important in terms of combat.

Naomi Venture
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:31:00 - [9]
 

One thing I would like to see is system damage. Firstly it would actually give the system repair device some use Confused and it would make combat more tactical than all firing on one target till it pops.

Being able to target specific systems on a ship would be gravy. Very Happy

Cpt Pugwash
Caldari
Rubra Libertas Militia
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mrigh Nayani

you fire a laser first and then ur enemy fires a laser, then you again fire a laser and he fires a laser, you fire a laser, and then he fires a laser, you fire a laser,he fire a laser,you fire a laser,he fires a laser............................ until one of us is dead...!!Surprised




If that is how you fight your combat then you will find it both boring and unproductive.

Combat is about getting an 'edge'.

If it be because you are in a Bs and your target an indy or because you are fighting at your optimal and your target is not. However large or small it is the little details that win fights.

Combat in Eve is very like a very fast game of chess, you always have to be thinking ahead. What is your enemies ship? what is his likely setup? is he moving and if so in what direction and why? (away from you to get out of warp scram range or possibly because he has long range weapons? or toward you to use his short range scram and blasters?).

This is not just true of BS but Frigates and cruisers also. Try dipping in and out of web range when fighting other frigs and catch your oppnent with a web but be out of range b4 he can respond with a web of his own.

Keep practicing at first you will only have time to turn your lasers and repairers on, but as you become more experienced you will find you have more time to think in a fight. You might start cycling your armour repairer to get maximum benefit from it or to conserve Cap or to aim the nos at the tackling frig and send your drones after him so you can make good an escape instead of previously you might have just slugged it out with his 2 bs m8's BS.

If you are experienced in combat and don't have a clue what i am talking about, then you are probably one of those people god made Mining lasers for Very Happy

Silex D'Arden
Elapsed Masquerade
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:42:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mrigh Nayani

So for now i am sticking with mining and making more money so that i can add few more ships to my collection. Then i will hop into one of my shiny new ships, take a long drive to different solar systems and then dock back into the station.Rolling Eyes


Can I have your battleship then?

Jonas Bane
Red Hammer Industries
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:59:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Jonas Bane on 14/11/2004 12:06:22
Quick two-step method to getting more excitement out of hunting rats.

Step 1 - Stop orbiting.

Step 2 - Get a close range setup.

You really have to pay attention to your surroundings and manuever your craft to survive. Do you approach from the far side of the group, hoping the extra 2k will push you far enough outside of optimal to cut down on incoming damage, or do you go nearside planning to rip through them all before you take structure damage? You'll have to make a number of decisions on the fly, like when to trigger a MWD burst, or if repairing armor is more important. The advantage is that when you get really good at it, you can take on a considerably larger group of foes and make short work of them compared to long range sniper setups.

You don't need a manuevering hotkey since you have direct control over your ship. You can execute a break turn by simply rotating your camera 90 degrees and double clicking. Give it a boost from your MWD if you really need to turn a corner. All of these have tradeoffs, since turns lower your speed and make you easier to track.

Stop trying to play this game like any other space sim. EVE ships handle more like naval ships then airplanes. You have to think ahead, predict your opponent's move, and react to give yourself an advantage. It is kind of a shame that loadouts and specialization are so vital that you can walk into a fight with no hope of winning. But dying isn't that big of a deal, so you can just outfit another ship and try something new.

Two additions I'd like to see are segmented shields and armor, and limited firing arcs. This way manuevering is more important than just keeping at your optimal. It'd probably be too much for a new player to take in, so have it only apply to larger ships where players generally have more experience.

Jehutty
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.11.14 11:59:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Jehutty on 14/11/2004 12:02:53
I look at it this way....Frigate's,Cruisers,Destoryers,Battleships,and Carriers in RL cant just go about and dodge missiles and bullets and ect.First of this is a game where we are millions of years in the future.Tracking and radar(ect)are top o the line so dodging something cant be that easy.Although you can semi dodge attacks be either getting right on top of the enemy or far away from the enemy so that when they attack there range is screwed so the attacks will be weaker.Frigates in game are extremely good for this form of battle,small sleek and very fast makes the more manueverable.Cruisers should be a bit more manueverable if you ask me but owell.Now battleships,the shear size of them is why they just cant go dodgeing attacks.I dissagree with the entire you fire they fire (ect) that is only part of it.As far as Im concerned mantaining yer ship is fun as h***.Using EW,Sheild boosters,armour repairers is where the real skill of it comes in at.And yes ships do get destroyed fast (very fast sometimes) but with CCP nerfing all the weapons and the missiles every patch I would imagine ships will start to stay through more of the battles.Oh yeah I completly agree with Jonas there! Razz

DeMundus
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:04:00 - [14]
 

IMO it the best pvp combat system everCool

Synex
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:06:00 - [15]
 

I always thought the same, that combat was very simplistic and all about loadouts.

However, in doing more combat i'm starting to appreciate the subtleties of it more and more.

It's all about advantages / disadvantages, manuvering so that your transversal velocity means that your higher tracking guns will hit him better, while his will score less hits. Staying out of the range of his weapons, countering your enemy mwd'ing towards you with NOS and EN. Especially in fleet battles, you see some great tactics (althought only at 1 fps), wings of frigs zipping in to scramble and web targets, cruisers up close and personal, while BS plug away from a distance.

While twitch-combat can be fun, from a space-point of view, it is highly unrealistic, and also impractical.

Some kind of Newtonian physics lead to an amazing combat system, but the learning curve is so steep that it will scare away most people. Flying along @ 126 km/s, then turning off your engines, spinning rounds and firing at the ship following you, the decelerating and throwing your ship into an inverted loop - nothing beats that, but its a bugger to learn.

Mrigh Nayani
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Cpt Pugwash
Originally by: Mrigh Nayani

you fire a laser first and then ur enemy fires a laser, then you again fire a laser and he fires a laser, you fire a laser, and then he fires a laser, you fire a laser,he fire a laser,you fire a laser,he fires a laser............................ until one of us is dead...!!Surprised




If that is how you fight your combat then you will find it both boring and unproductive.


Combat is about getting an 'edge'.

If it be because you are in a Bs and your target an indy or because you are fighting at your optimal and your target is not. However large or small it is the little details that win fights.

Combat in Eve is very like a very fast game of chess, you always have to be thinking ahead. What is your enemies ship? what is his likely setup? is he moving and if so in what direction and why? (away from you to get out of warp scram range or possibly because he has long range weapons? or toward you to use his short range scram and blasters?).

This is not just true of BS but Frigates and cruisers also. Try dipping in and out of web range when fighting other frigs and catch your oppnent with a web but be out of range b4 he can respond with a web of his own.

Keep practicing at first you will only have time to turn your lasers and repairers on, but as you become more experienced you will find you have more time to think in a fight. You might start cycling your armour repairer to get maximum benefit from it or to conserve Cap or to aim the nos at the tackling frig and send your drones after him so you can make good an escape instead of previously you might have just slugged it out with his 2 bs m8's BS.

If you are experienced in combat and don't have a clue what i am talking about, then you are probably one of those people god made Mining lasers for Very Happy



I agree with you but what i am saying is that why to only depend on all the cool stuff for combat? a fighter in combat has to be clever and always a step ahead of his nemy, i agree. Fitting up you ship with right equipment is fun and intresting but as soon as you get into combat you realise that you dont have much options but to either fly straight in line or orbit around your enemy. In games like World of Warcraft and Everquest-2 your character gets some special moves as he gets more skilled in combat.
I know EVE is nothing like these two games and has a very different concept but combat is really straightforward where everything depends upon how good are you at fitting your ship
with right equipment.
I want to feel the speed and rush in combat but because of this straightforward approach it gets boring really fast.
The moves like dodging and loops can be added either through hotkeys or you can get access to them by right click of mouse. We already have skills which make your ship more agile then why not add more skills?? afterall a clever pilot is one who not only knows which ammo or gun is good for his ship but also knows how to fly it better. And i think it will add a lot more to defence side then just relying upon shields and armor repairs.

Naomi Venture
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:25:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jonas Bane
Two additions I'd like to see are segmented shields and armor, and limited firing arcs. This way manuevering is more important than just keeping at your optimal. It'd probably be too much for a new player to take in, so have it only apply to larger ships where players generally have more experience.


Now that would be groovy. Kinda like Starfleet Battles.

Brunis
True Elks
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mrigh Nayani

In games like World of Warcraft and Everquest-2 your character gets some special moves as he gets more skilled in combat


I have tryed WOW, its boring as hell.. And don't come here saying that the combat there is better, WOW is all about pressing on a target and keep using your best move and hope you will last longer than the NPC your attacking.
WOW is boring, its the same over and over, travel time is even longer in WOW then in Eve, even people look the same in it.

I realy don't see what all the hype is about that game, Blizard wont get any money from me!

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:47:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Gariuys on 14/11/2004 12:51:42
1. maneuvering and transversal velocity and tracking etc. are already important, the system is deep and if you spend the time there's a lot to learn, that you can get into it without realizing all this is great, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

2. I normally fly a cruiser, a 300man, 100m+ spaceship. I don't wanna do freaking loops this ain't top gun.

Edit: on the segmented shields and firing arcs thing, I spent a good deal of time playing SFC ( II & III ) and they had that, and it's combat system looked very deep and engrosing, but in the end, it wasn't deep, every fight was the exact same thing. EVE is the opposite, looks simple, easy to get into, but very deep and loads of options and tactics.

Filiberto
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2004.11.14 12:49:00 - [20]
 

if you like dodging things and fire try freelancer it's a cool game. you'll like it

Brunis
True Elks
Posted - 2004.11.14 13:00:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Filiberto
if you like dodging things and fire try freelancer it's a cool game. you'll like it


Or an old game of asteroids or maybe even spaceinvaders.. There you can dodge all you want! Laughing

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2004.11.14 16:06:00 - [22]
 

Actually there was a space combat sim with full newtonian physics and you controled the game in a first person view...It was independence war2-edge of chaos..Very Happy


The joys of using thrusters to circle strafe a cruiser/BS,while your ships guns are pointed directly at the ship,or when you're being chased another ship,you could kill the engines,turn the ship around 180*,aim and fire your guns/missiles at that persuing ship but still go in the same direction because the ship didn't slow down...Really made you feel like a pilot,especially in those larger battles.


Besides,in my opinion,they'll have to implement a first persion view once planetary flight is (hopefully) introduced in shiva..Confused

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2004.11.14 16:10:00 - [23]
 

No, they wont, as it would require an entirely seperate engine!

The combat in eve is among the most involved of any game Ive ever seen. Its so much more than rock paper scissors. Consider ANY other MMORPGs PvP. A level 50 beats a level 49.9. Fun.

The Chef
Caldari
Posted - 2004.11.14 16:11:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cpt Pugwash
Combat in Eve is very like a very fast game of chess, you always have to be thinking ahead. What is your enemies ship? what is his likely setup? is he moving and if so in what direction and why? (away from you to get out of warp scram range or possibly because he has long range weapons? or toward you to use his short range scram and blasters?).


Sums it up in one. Although occasionally the board lags to hell and you find out that your king has been taken while you were waiting for the lag to pass Sad.

Janus Rebelknight
The Scope
Posted - 2004.11.14 16:43:00 - [25]
 

today I had to avoid 20 curse alliance warships. 10 in front of me and 10 in the system behind me, with their scouts all over the place.

And considering what I was flying in that was one scary ride.

Man that was tension right there. That was real warfare :)

Frank Horrigan
Vault 35
Posted - 2004.11.14 16:49:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Naomi Venture
Capital Starships doing barrel rolls and loops to avoid fire?




e&b had that i think.. looked realy cool


Nerhtal Al'Thali
Caldari
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
Posted - 2004.11.14 17:21:00 - [27]
 

I thought the medieval style fantasy PvP was pretty rock paper scissor like, nothing to it at all really.

Eve has far more hidden and tactically viable way of fighting PvP. Quite cool really.

Independence War 2: Edge of chaos -> great game, so much fun to play

Rhyslin
Posted - 2004.11.14 19:04:00 - [28]
 

I'm certainly not looking for twitch combat, but current Eve combat seems to be at least 80% fitting-determined. This doesn't count player skill, but then again, in traditional table-top RPG, it should be more character skill in any case.

What puts me off Eve's system the most is the lack of options you have in space. I wish it would be more cinematic (and thus more like a game of chess). For example:

Kirk: Sulu take evasive action
Sulu: I'm sorry sir, I can only fly in circles or straight lines
Spock: In any case captain, they seem to instantly react to changes in direction.

Kirk: Increase power to shields
Scotty: I'm sorry captain, we left the shield recharger behind at the fitting station.

Kirk: Target their engines!
Checkov: I'm sorry captain, I don't know how to do that.

Kirk: Fire! Wait, where did they go?
Chekov: We didn't bring our scrambler, so they warped out
Kirk: Follow them!
Sulu: I'm sorry sir, I don't know where they went.
Kirk: Spock, find them on long-range scanners!
Spock: Long range what? Sir?

Kirk: We'll hide behind that huge asteroid, and jump them when they go past.
Spock: I'm sorry captain, but their scanners and weapons penetrate that rock like it wasn't there.

Very Happy

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2004.11.14 19:05:00 - [29]
 

"be at least 80% fitting-determined."

at the 1v1 level, very possibly

At fleet levels, fitting is closer to 30%

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.11.14 19:14:00 - [30]
 

EVE is point and click... It always has been, always will be...

And yes, that is boring, and one day some other space sim will be more fun than EVE, and we will all flock to that.

But until then, we only have once choice...

When I first started playing EVE, I was looking so farward to the open endedness of the game. I soon realised the landmark spaceflight was very restrictive, even more than EnB was... That was a huge dissappointment, and it still is to some extent...

But, this is really the best space sim us SCI-FI geeks have to work with right now...


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