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Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.12.13 21:35:00 - [1]
 

For an older account with 4 Mill xp. Is it still worth it to train this skill?

For a young account with 50k xp. Is it worth it to train to V?

Clueless Alt
Posted - 2009.12.13 22:07:00 - [2]
 

It's a skill that benefit you everytime you train something, whatever it is.

Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.12.13 22:26:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jerid Verges on 13/12/2009 22:25:44
4 Days seems like a long time to train though. So I was wondering if 4 Days is worth a 2% bonus.

Eagle Tarquinas
Gallente
Reliables Inc
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.12.13 22:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jerid Verges
Edited by: Jerid Verges on 13/12/2009 22:25:44
4 Days seems like a long time to train though.


When you start training t2 cruisers and capital ship, you will look back on this statement an laugh.

But seriously, yes its very very worth it.

Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.12.13 22:58:00 - [5]
 

Well. That statement sold me.

Veron Kirtor
Gallente
Blue Republic
Posted - 2009.12.13 23:48:00 - [6]
 

Yes, it's very much worth it, for both accounts.

Vritri
Posted - 2009.12.14 00:26:00 - [7]
 

Frankly, it matters how long you plan to play the game after you finishing training it.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=81368 This thread will tell you the payoff times for the different amounts of skills.

If you don't see yourself playing a year from this date, it's probably not worth it. Learning is gonna take some time off every skill you train, but it's gonna take a while before it's saved you the amount of time it took to learn it. If you see yourself playing 1-2 years, you should probably max the learning and all the basic learning skills.

If you see yourself playing for years past that, then max the advanced learning skills too. For me, I don't see myself playing that long, so I brought them all to 4.

Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2009.12.14 22:56:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Acidictadpole on 14/12/2009 22:57:31
Well work it out with math!

It speeds up learning by 2%. So to make up for the time training it you need to regain 4d of training. If you're speeding it up by 2%, that means that 2% of your training needs to be 4d.

4d / 0.02 = 200d. So if you're planning on playing eve for 200days after you finish training the skill. It's worth it. (Translates to just over half a year)

Disclaimer: There are probably some numbers incorrect but I'm pretty sure this will get you an approximate average calculation.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.12.15 10:53:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 15/12/2009 11:03:27
I really don’t like using payoff by its self to say if the learning skills are worth getting or not as payoff doesn’t tell you the whole story. If you have a change of skill focus, change of in game role, get new skills or new skills come out, have a change of mood or many other reasons then learning V and Adv learning skills become worth it long before the payoff point has been hit.

Say in 6months you decided to have a change of skill focus and swap from hybrids to missiles along with a new line of ships. You will finish that new missile skill plan faster with learning V then without learning V. Things like that are what make learning and adv5 learning skills worth it. Finishing skill plans days or weeks faster with learning or adv5 learning is worthwhile even if you have not hit payoff.

Saying if learning skills are worth it or not by only looking at playoff is misleading unless its a very rare player with a static never changeing skill plan.


For example my Orca skill plan finished something like 17days faster with adv5 skills. I consider that worthwhile. But payoff says it’s not worthwhile. My corp just moved to a class 6 wormhole and I just found I need to train for a Rorqual. Again I am going to train for that much faster with learning and adv5 learning then without. Payoff says the skills are not worthwhile but surely finishing the skill plans weeks faster is worthwhile. So Payoff by its self does not tell a player if the skills are going be worthwhile or not.

So you need to look at the flexibility learning V and adv5 learning skills give you. Not just payoff. Are you going to have a static never changeing skill plan? Or might your skill plan change at a later date?

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.12.15 13:10:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
yadayadayada
Saying if learning skills are worth it or not by only looking at playoff is misleading unless its a very rare player with a static never changeing skill plan.
yadayadayada


Pottsey, please keep the nonsense about advanced learning skills out of this; OP asked a specific question about the skill Learning V, not about any other learning skills.

Learning V compared to Learning IV is a 1.85% increase no matter how you cut it. If it takes 4 Days to train, it will take 216 Days before you have gained as much SP from the skill as you invested in it. That's the figure most people are interested in, not your weird personal interpretation of payoff.
Your interpretation is hardly applicable for the advanced learning skills (with their long payoffs) and it certainly isn't for Learning V with it's short payoff. Using your interpretation, if you ignore the initial investment of SP/time (which you do, without explaining why), the most you can gain in the very unlikely scenario you sketched is a few days.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2009.12.15 14:24:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jerid Verges
For an older account with 4 Mill xp. Is it still worth it to train this skill?

For a young account with 50k xp. Is it worth it to train to V?


Definitely.

Ohhh Matron
Posted - 2009.12.15 15:28:00 - [12]
 

As you get further into the game and the skills get bigger and bigger multipliers then it does come as a big boost. When you hit the (x6)+ skills to level 5 every little bit helps. So you lose a month or so skilling the learnings to 5 but in the long run it's worth it.

Seeing a 30+ day skill knocked down to maybe 28 is a psychological boost.

Yarinor
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.15 15:33:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Pottsey
yadayadayada
Saying if learning skills are worth it or not by only looking at playoff is misleading unless its a very rare player with a static never changeing skill plan.
yadayadayada


Pottsey, please keep the nonsense about advanced learning skills out of this; OP asked a specific question about the skill Learning V, not about any other learning skills.

Learning V compared to Learning IV is a 1.85% increase no matter how you cut it. If it takes 4 Days to train, it will take 216 Days before you have gained as much SP from the skill as you invested in it. That's the figure most people are interested in, not your weird personal interpretation of payoff.
Your interpretation is hardly applicable for the advanced learning skills (with their long payoffs) and it certainly isn't for Learning V with it's short payoff. Using your interpretation, if you ignore the initial investment of SP/time (which you do, without explaining why), the most you can gain in the very unlikely scenario you sketched is a few days.


I seriously find it hard to believe why pottsey get flamed every time he makes his excellent point.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.12.15 15:50:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Yarinor
I seriously find it hard to believe why pottsey get flamed every time he makes his excellent point.


Because the point isn't excellent (it requires conventiently forgetting time invested in training the skills in the first place and/or planning to not stick to the training plan) and because for years now Pottsey is posting the point in every single thread where it is remotely revelant or (as in this case) completely irrelevant.
The entire period we're talking about in this thread (~200 days) is hardly long enough to train all the learning skills to V, let alone get a significant advantage from it (in that weird way).

Nico Terces
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.15 15:53:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Nico Terces on 15/12/2009 15:59:08
Edit: Spelling
If you plan to play eve for a long time, all learning skills are worth it at lvl 5, if they are worth it for you. A lot of players think in terms of optimal skillpoints. You train everything a little faster if you train advanced learningskills to 5. While this is true, it's generally a difference you do not notice while training skills. You save 10 minutes on this 4 day skill, 10 minutes on the other one.

If you think you're wasting 14 days getting a learningskill maxed, you are wasting 14 days on getting that learningskill maxed. If you feel good on every learningskill maxed, you feel good about it. In the long run, having all learningskills on lvl 5 helps you. I personally cant recommend starting with maxing your learningskills as it is boring.

At 4 mil SP you should be aiming for at least lvl 4 basic learning, lvl 3 advanced learning. Getting the skill Learning to 5 is, in my opinon, worth it. Same with all rank 1 learning skills, get them to 5. If you have the patience to get them all to 5 in 1 go, do it if it makes you happy. If you havent got the patience, I'd get one to lvl 5, train some other stuff for a month, then get another to 5.

Also, please stop flaming Pottsey, cuz he has a point. Some people always have something to train or to specialise in. They're certain that they will not be training charisma skills for the next 345345 days. Pottsey however sometimes wants to switch his focus to other parts of the game, when he completes a skillplan. He's stated before that in the periods that he's not sure about what he wants to train for in eve, he trained his learningskills. That is a fine strategy, if you like playing the game this way. You dont have to agree, but not everyone likes chocolate or vanilla either. Furthermore, while he spent 2 weeks or so on his maxing of Charisma, once he finds something that needs charisma, he will be training this at maxed efficiency. That's how he likes to play his game, so by all means, please let him!

I also spend 2 weeks every now and then maxing learningskills, because my computer breaks down, or because I have exams or something. In the 2 weeks-month I'm not playing this game, I can easily live with getting maxed learningskills :p I prefer to train short skills, ships, and prerequisites while I am playing the game.

The conclusion of this story is: Train whatever you want, but basic learningskills to lvl 5 are worth it if you plan to stick around! Just remember to enjoy the game, so if you hate training learningskills, dont bore yourself to death with them while you could be training for stuff you actually want to fly in / shoot with.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.12.15 17:16:00 - [16]
 

Estel Arador said "Because the point isn't excellent (it requires conventiently forgetting time invested in training the skills in the first place and/or planning to not stick to the training plan)"
How many times do I have to point out it does not require conveniently forgetting time invested in training the skills. Using payoff by itself self to say if learning skills are worth it is just as bad as it requires conveniently forgetting that people make new skill plans up, skill plans that often start after the point of getting the learning skills.

Only talking about payoff and ignoring the rest is giving someone half the facts they need to decide if learning skills are worth getting. Purposely ignoring half the facts to me is the same as misleading someone. All I want to do are give people who ask the question are learning skills worth it all the facts. Conveniently forgetting to tell people the advantages of learning skills and when and when not these advantages work before payoff is not helping.



Estel Arador said “That's the figure most people are interested in, not your weird personal interpretation of payoff.”
My interpretation of payoff is the same as everyone else. The question was not how long does payoff take. Answers about payoff and ignoring all the worthwhile reasons to get learning V is not answering the original questions in a helpful way.




Estel Arador said “Your interpretation is hardly applicable for the advanced learning skills (with their long payoffs) and it certainly isn't for Learning V with it's short payoff.”
I really hope that is a poor joke. My interpretation is correct and has been proven correct many times. It’s just some people like you seem to want to ignore the advantages of learning skills and focus on payoff. The question is not when does learning skill payoff. The question was “is worth it to train this skill” those are very different questions. I listed good reasons for why learning V and adv5 learning skills are worthwhile to train. The reasons I posted don't apply to all situations but at least I explain when they are worthwhile so people can make their own minds up. It's better than just ignoring the benefits.



Estel Arador said “the most you can gain in the very unlikely scenario you sketched is a few days.”
It’s not very unlikely, it's very common. What is very unlikely is the scenario you use for payoff where people do not change skill plans which is what you need for payoff to work. As soon as the skill plan is changed your whole way of valuing learning skills via payoff stops working.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.12.15 19:04:00 - [17]
 

To OP, yes, it's worth it, but depending on how heavily you use each account, make sure to mix learning skills in with things that keep it interesting/fun for you.

For what it's worth it, I agree with Potsey. I've always felt that way about the learning skills before I came to the forums and read her explanations. She makes a very good point and the learning skills start working for you immediately after trained.

For those that disagree with Potsey (vehemently), it's probably not worth it and I shouldn't bother typing. Meh.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2009.12.15 20:08:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 15/12/2009 20:20:40
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 15/12/2009 20:08:37
i prefer payoff theory. value of learning skills is in time they save, not speed they give. an extreme example: if training speed was more important, all trialist should train learning before any useful skill just because they could train them faster later (nonsense, of course). for any measurable time player decides to play, there are breakpoints which define value of specific level of learning skills. common example for trialist: train basic learnings to 3, then train useful skills. best bang for the buck.

payoff theory is not relevant only if player decides to play indefinitely (as in "i love this game so much i will play until death, servers close, or world ends"). with time out of equation, all levels of learning are worth it, and only training speed becomes relevant.

as for OP: if you intended to play for more than 6 months, Learning V is worth it.

edit: rephrased

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.12.15 21:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jagga Spikes
payoff theory is not relevant only if player decides to play indefinitely (as in "i love this game so much i will play until death, servers close, or world ends"). with time out of equation, all levels of learning are worth it, and only training speed becomes relevant.


True, intended time playing does come into account. For example, Learning V, for the sake of this thread, would take 4 - 5 days to train. If I don't plan on playing longer than 4 - 5 days, obviously my time would be better spent training something else that I would use during that time.

The moment I made this decision and then later changed my mind we'd have to refactor the equation to intended time to play and probable actual time to play.

But what factor of intended play time beyond the time to train the skill (4 - 5 days in this example) does it become worth it? The payoff theorists would argue that it is exactly the amount of time to recoup the skill points "wasted" into the skill in question, Learning V. Tripoli says for the Learning skill it is 243-406 Days.

This is where the Potsey theorists come into play. Especially for newer players, sometime before that 243 - 406 days you will change your focus, start training skills outside of your prime. With this change you are now training your new role faster, and getting more usable SPs (for those that like payoff theory) than if you hadn't trained Learning V way back when.

But where does that spot of intended play time yet less than payoff time does this benefit you? I'm sure this would be different for each player, but I'd venture 2 - 3 months. That is, if you intend to play (or your probably play time) is only 2 weeks, then Learning V would be a poor choice. If you intend to play for 2 - 3 months longer, even though less than total payoff time, I'd venture to say Learning V would be a great choice, due to Potsey's arguments. Perhaps the sweet spot is a length of time where the learning skill time is a percentage. For example, maybe if the time to train the Learning skill is 12% of the remaining time you intend to play then it'd be worth it, due to future changes in skill plan, etc.

This explanation is especially better for Learning V than for any of other skills, since Learning applies to whatever skill you are currently training.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.12.15 22:18:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
With this change you are now training your new role faster, and getting more usable SPs (for those that like payoff theory) than if you hadn't trained Learning V way back when.


However, in exchange for that faster skill training after changing your plan, you've still spent 4-5 days training Learning V. That is, you're 4-5 behind on your training plan before the change in exchange for a faster learning speed after a possible and unplanned change in training plan. That's what I meant with "you have to plan on not sticking to the plan". You decide to train Learning V now to train faster when you decide to not to stick to your previous decisions (are you confused yet? I am...)

Perhaps it's easier to look at it this way:
The "payoff theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and see when it is guaranteed to be recouped.
The "Pottsey theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and claim it's worth it after a possible change in training plans.

Sure the second thing could happen, but if you want to make a decision on whether or to train the skills the first is far more sensible.

Vritri
Posted - 2009.12.15 22:21:00 - [21]
 

I fail to see how often you change your skillplan affecting the payoff for your learning skills, ESPECIALLY Learning itself. (I could see it making the payoff for other learning skills actually take longer though. For example, getting Logic to V and then training skills that don't use Int. This would actually make it take longer to get the payoff).

It's still the same amount of time before you've paid off the initial investment of time into the Learning skill. No matter how much you change your skillplan.

If you spend 4 days on Learning V, you still spent 4 days on it. Until you've accrued enough SP (over about 200 days, give or take) that adds up to 4 days worth of SP, it is less efficient. After that point, it is more efficient. It makes no difference how often you change your skillplan, ESPECIALLY for Learning (since it affects every skill). Unless you are totally buggered for skills to train, and you just have absolutely no idea or cannot afford any other skillbooks, but that's not changing the efficiency of the skill at all. That's just making it a smart investment for when you know what you'll want to train. It doesn't make Learning V more useful before the 200 day mark.

You seem to say that because you picked up Learning V and shaved 10 mins off your Orca training, it was a benefit to your corp, even before the 200 day marker. But you could have picked up that same training 3 days, 23 hours, and 50 minutes earlier if you didn't train Learning. You are ignoring the initial investment of time spent into the learning skill. No matter how much you change your skillplan, that will not change. The only way changing skillplan matters is by making the other (not Learning specifically) attribute-specific learning skills LESS efficient due to a changed priority of your skillplan.

TLDR: Learning is worth it if you will continue to play for more than 200 days from the point it finishes.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.12.15 23:13:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 15/12/2009 23:15:23
Originally by: Estel Arador

Perhaps it's easier to look at it this way:
The "payoff theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and see when it is guaranteed to be recouped.
The "Pottsey theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and claim it's worth it after a possible change in training plans.

Sure the second thing could happen, but if you want to make a decision on whether or to train the skills the first is far more sensible.


So the payoff school of thought are theorists and the Potseyists are realists. :)

Jabs aside, though, this is really the crux of the issue. The payoff theorists when making the decision ask themselves if they will be playing long enough to be guaranteed to recoup the investment. Potseyists ask themselves if they will possibly change their skill plan for it to be worth it. Neither is necessaily completely wrong or right. It invovles knowing yourself. For me, I change my direection often enough that my remap looks mostly homognous and I'm working on my level 5 learnings, because I'm sure I will be changing my direction several times.

I think changing of skill plans happens a lot more than the payoff theorists realize or would like to admit. But that's where knowing yourself for your own decisions come into play.

You could compare the payoff theorists to physicists/mathematicians and the Potseyists to engineers, applied science. Each side needs the other, no matter how much they argue or disagree. :)

To Vritri, Potsey uses the Orca as her claassic example because she trained her learnings before the Orca was available or its prereqs even known. The time invested in learning skills could not have been applied towards the Orca, so they did allow her to train to the Orca faster than she otherwise would have been able to.

Vritri
Posted - 2009.12.15 23:25:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega


To Vritri, Potsey uses the Orca as her claassic example because she trained her learnings before the Orca was available or its prereqs even known. The time invested in learning skills could not have been applied towards the Orca, so they did allow her to train to the Orca faster than she otherwise would have been able to.


That's a fair situation then. I think that falls under the category of: "If you have nothing else to train (can't afford, don't know what you want to do etc) then Learning skills are a smart investment". Simply because, at least you are training something while trying to figure yourself out, and they are something that WILL help in the future, undoubtedly.

But as far as the OP's question, that's the situation. If you know for a fact that you won't play for 200 days total, it's probably not advisable to get Learning V no matter how often you change skill plans, cause you're probably gonna be focused on a very short-term immediate goal (as much as you can get done in 200 days at least). I think most people playing don't know that though. They can't say "Well, I know exactly X day I am qutting, so all my plans are going to revolve around that". But it gives you an idea at least.

Myself, I know I won't be playing past a certain date (FFXIV release date) so I actually can plan out which learning skills were worth training (I did get Learning V) and which are probably not beneficial in that time frame (any advanced learning V).

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.12.16 07:54:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 16/12/2009 07:56:36
Estel Arador said "That's what I meant with "you have to plan on not sticking to the plan". You decide to train Learning V now to train faster when you decide to not to stick to your previous decisions (are you confused yet? I am...)"
You don't have to plan to not stick to your plan. You just need to be aware that things are ever changing and that there is a high chance you won't stick to your plan. Not sticking to a plan is common. What's rare is sticking to a plan long team.

Just how many people do stick to skill plans for 1 year, 2 years, 3 years? have many don't even stick to skill plans for 200 days?
Anyway your ignoring some of the advantages of learning skills and not telling people those advantages when they ask are the skills worth it.



Estel Arador said "The "payoff theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and see when it is guaranteed to be recouped."
But payoff does it in a way that doesn't apply to a very large amount of players. Most players will not fit into the situation where payoff works nicely. Payoff tells you when you get a guaranteed recouped of SP. It does not tell you when learning skills are worth it. Like I proved many times, learning skills can be worth it long before the payoff point it has been hit.



Estel Arador said "Pottsey theorists" take a guaranteed investment of SP (learning skills) and claim it's worth it after a possible change in training plans."
My way says you get a guaranteed point of payoff plus there are further advantages like if you change skill plans which a very large amount of players do. This is a much better way than ignoring advantages like the payoff way does. Yes its possible, not guaranteed but you should not ignore a fact that can happen and happens a lot.

I am not saying abandon payoff. But when people ask is it worth it? Say something like Payoff guarantees SP will be recouped by x date. But there are other advantages like changing skill plans. Then people can make an informed dissuasion on if learning skills are worth or not for themselves.

If I and many other players followed what payoff says we would be much worse off. Yet payoff says we are better off. So payoff by its self is wrong some of the time.



Vritri said " You seem to say that because you picked up Learning V and shaved 10 mins off your Orca training, it was a benefit to your corp, even before the 200 day marker. But you could have picked up that same training 3 days, 23 hours, and 50 minutes earlier if you didn't train Learning. You are ignoring the initial investment of time spent into the learning skill."
First we are talking days not 10mins just with learning V. Second I am talking about the game from a realist's point of view as Dretzle Omega put it. If you think about it, how could I train the Orca skills before I got learning?
A, the skills in my case where not out before I got learning
B, I had no interested in leadership back then.
C, I couldn't afford the skills.

The problem with saying"But you could have picked up that same training 3 days, 23 hours, and 50 minutes earlier if you didn't train Learning" is that requires a crystal ball telling you changes before they happen.
Take my recent Rorqual example. It was my corp moving to a class 6 wormhole on the 12th of December that caused me to train for a Rorqual. Training the Rorqual before I got learning would require me to have trained for the Rorqual before the event on the 12th of December happened. But before the 12th I had no interest in the Rorqual.

That's the advantage of learning skills. They give you the flexibility to change and respond to game balances, new skills and events that cause you to change skill plans.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.12.16 08:08:00 - [25]
 

Estel Arador said " Sure the second thing could happen, but if you want to make a decision on whether or to train the skills the first is far more sensible."
I don't think it is more sensible, in fact its misleading. The first requires you to plan for a situation that is very rare. I don't think planning to never change your skill plan is realistic or sensible.

How can you make a decision on whether or to train the skills without factoring in the advantages? Payoff requires you to ignore the advantages and make the decision purely on payoff. That is not more sensible.

Swidgen
Posted - 2009.12.16 10:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
Learning V compared to Learning IV is a 1.85% increase no matter how you cut it. If it takes 4 Days to train, it will take 216 Days before you have gained as much SP from the skill as you invested in it.

That's exactly where the question begins and ends. This vague additional "benefit" you might get from "changing skill plans" is nonsense. With Learning V you'll shave the 1.8 percent off anything and everything you train, regardless of what your skill plan is, how long you stick to it, or change it.

If you're not planning to play for 216 days then Learning 5 in the long run (which in this case is 216 days) is not worth it. That's the length of time before the skill pays for itself and no nebulous change in your skill plan will change that one iota.

BellCurve
Posted - 2009.12.16 10:44:00 - [27]
 

Hello,
Good question - here's my impressions which I hope are of use based on my experience as a relatively new player.

The learning skills are a bore (and an outrageous time sink but i'll take that to another forum). However, the higher your learning based skills the broader the scope of efficiency will be for you. To clarify, most people want a trade - fighter, miner, tradesman etc. - but you will still need core operating skills as well as a the skills that are core to the career you choose. The more skills you have the less time you will need to spend on skills you are otherwise not specialised in (in terms of attributes) as you will have a good rating to all attributes.

I recommend training all skills to 5 (with the exception of Charisma). Get it out of the way, not because you will see some long term time gain over some projected term, but because it will give you the freedom to change roles and ships without your new role/ship taking a ridiculous amount of time to get to a decent standard.

Don't get lost in the maths of efficiency - this is a sandbox game - the more freedom you have to adapt and change and to experience an open universe the more you will ENJOY playing.

Learn the learning skills because they will give you freedom to enjoy playing more which will make you play for longer which, in the end, will also give you your time back (this should appease the people who play this game like it was an Excel sheet :))

They are dreadful to learn but do offer you freedom to adapt - that is what sells it for me.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.12.16 13:29:00 - [28]
 


Is Learning 5 (any of the 11 ones, not just the one with that exact name) worth it ?
Yes and no, both at the same time.
And it can change quite fast from one to the other, or better said, hover somewhere in between most of the time.

WHEN IS learning 5 clearly worth it ? When long term goals >> short term goals.
* when you want to start training a long enough skill plan and you do not care for any of the in-between points, only about the END result
* as long as you will not be using that character much (if at all) in the near future but want it for (much) later
* when you have no skills you need too much in the near future but want to get as many SP as possible in the long run
Concrete example : creating an alt that will be 100% sustained by the main, with no desire to use that alt at all for a long period of time.

WHEN ISN'T learning 5 worth it at all ? When short term goals >> long term goals.
* when training for a shorter skill plan, or a series of short skill plans, and each skill level is put into use soon after it's trained
* as long as you're actively using your character, and you need it to get better as fast as possible
* when you have plenty of skills you need ASAP and don't really care about total SP at some time in the future
Concrete example : brand new player with no financial assistance of any kind, being actively played since early on, in a self-reliant manner.


Since most of the time, the importance of short-term goals is of similar importance to that of long-term goals (or better said, some aspects of each are important to you, but not all of them at the same time), training any learnings to L5 (and which ones, if any) is eventually a matter of taste and sets of circumstances, not an exact science.

For instance, personally, I wouldn't really bother with any of the learnings to L5 on a fresh alt of mine until much later, even if I would only use that alt infrequently (as long as it IS used at all). Later on in the alt's life, as soon as all the minimal skills for use are done, sure, get the learnings out of the way, IF and only if I plan to keep that alt. Alternatively, I might train those later to increase the alt's sales value if I plan to get rid of it. Or, if I would have had absolutely no use for the alt at all, and never actually planned to do anything with it except sell it, then yes, I would train ALL basic learnings to L5 ASAP, possibly even some advanced L5s. Like I said, it's all about circumstances... and intentions.

Alcmeme
Posted - 2009.12.16 14:54:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Is Learning 5 (any of the 11 ones, not just the one with that exact name) worth it ?
Yes and no, both at the same time.
And it can change quite fast from one to the other, or better said, hover somewhere in between most of the time.

WHEN IS learning 5 clearly worth it ? When long term goals >> short term goals.
* when you want to start training a long enough skill plan and you do not care for any of the in-between points, only about the END result
* as long as you will not be using that character much (if at all) in the near future but want it for (much) later
* when you have no skills you need too much in the near future but want to get as many SP as possible in the long run
Concrete example : creating an alt that will be 100% sustained by the main, with no desire to use that alt at all for a long period of time.

WHEN ISN'T learning 5 worth it at all ? When short term goals >> long term goals.
* when training for a shorter skill plan, or a series of short skill plans, and each skill level is put into use soon after it's trained
* as long as you're actively using your character, and you need it to get better as fast as possible
* when you have plenty of skills you need ASAP and don't really care about total SP at some time in the future
Concrete example : brand new player with no financial assistance of any kind, being actively played since early on, in a self-reliant manner.


Since most of the time, the importance of short-term goals is of similar importance to that of long-term goals (or better said, some aspects of each are important to you, but not all of them at the same time), training any learnings to L5 (and which ones, if any) is eventually a matter of taste and sets of circumstances, not an exact science.

For instance, personally, I wouldn't really bother with any of the learnings to L5 on a fresh alt of mine until much later, even if I would only use that alt infrequently (as long as it IS used at all). Later on in the alt's life, as soon as all the minimal skills for use are done, sure, get the learnings out of the way, IF and only if I plan to keep that alt. Alternatively, I might train those later to increase the alt's sales value if I plan to get rid of it. Or, if I would have had absolutely no use for the alt at all, and never actually planned to do anything with it except sell it, then yes, I would train ALL basic learnings to L5 ASAP, possibly even some advanced L5s. Like I said, it's all about circumstances... and intentions.



Exactly.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.12.16 15:57:00 - [30]
 

Trolling Pottsey into making huge posts defending his learning skills theories never gets old, does it.

Wait, yes it does.


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