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Wallymarts
Posted - 2009.12.10 13:46:00 - [1]
 

Anyone have any information whether these will be implemented or not?!

Give us another money sink! :P

TigerXtrm
APEX ARDENT COALITION
Posted - 2009.12.10 14:25:00 - [2]
 

*Drools on possible T3 mining barge*

EvilCheez
That's Retarded
FIGHT CLUB INC
Posted - 2009.12.10 15:02:00 - [3]
 

Pirates want that more than you do.

Singularity Catalyst
Posted - 2009.12.10 15:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: EvilCheez
Pirates want that more than you do.


Not with ewar immunity modules.

Wallymarts
Posted - 2009.12.10 15:29:00 - [5]
 

Look at it this way, as it stands, we have a 3 very good T2 barges, each for its job.

Hulk is for Ore, Mack for Ice, Skiff for Mercoxit

However, for a Hulk to mine in lowsec effectively (solo) you need million in modules.

Why not make a T3 Mining Barge for Lowsec?!

give it an innate warp strength, making it harder to pin down.
Give it a higher cargo capacity (but not too big)
DO NOT make it better at mining, not even sure if you want to give it the same potential as a Hulk, maybe a little less, but better then a covetor.


The point?! Give us something to run into a field, mine the hell out of our ABC's, then still have a good chance to run when that cloaked ship tries to lock you down.


Just some ideas.

Lyndisty Cotto
Posted - 2009.12.10 17:15:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.10 17:28:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lyndisty Cotto
Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)


I agree with this statement, I'd rather see Mining made into a proper profession than introducing a new gimick like T3 barges, with the price they would mainly be used in High sec anyway.

Besides, T3 barges are way down list, we're more likely to see T3 frigates, BS before and Haulers before T3 barges.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2009.12.10 17:36:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wallymarts
However, for a Hulk to mine in lowsec effectively (solo) you need million in modules.


ONE

MILLION

DOLLARS ISK!



One million isk isn't a lot of money anymore.

Maybe CCP need to invent heat beams known as 'lasers' too.


I'm sorry.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.10 19:49:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lyndisty Cotto
Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)
This comes from the nerf L4's crowd. Loot recycling is not the problem. Drone regions alloys are more of a problem. But the real problem, the big problem, the freaking huge problem is macro miners. They sit for 16 plus hours a day running a macro program and not only glut the market with ore, but sell it very cheap. Eliminate that and you'll have a real market again. There are people in this game that do little else to get isk to play the game. They buy PLEX's, shps, modules and many just use the isk to sell for real world money.

So little is done to these macroers, if anything, that I've even considered it myself and for the record, I hate that idea.

Windjammer

fox weik
Caldari
Caucasian Culture Club
Posted - 2009.12.10 20:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Avalon Champion
Originally by: Lyndisty Cotto
Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)


I agree with this statement, I'd rather see Mining made into a proper profession than introducing a new gimick like T3 barges, with the price they would mainly be used in High sec anyway.

Besides, T3 barges are way down list, we're more likely to see T3 frigates, BS before and Haulers before T3 barges.


if anything they should combine T3 Hauler/salvager/scanner/miner together, basicle all the sub-professions

rommel45
Posted - 2009.12.10 20:21:00 - [11]
 

You could make a T3 mining barge just like the T3 cruisers, make each module group be effectvie at different forms of mining from ice mining to 00 mining. Make some be able to tanke while others can just move massive amounts of ore.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.12.10 20:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Wallymarts
Give us another money sink! :P

Ships are not an ISK sink. Quite the contrary, insurance payouts are quite heavy ISK faucets.
Wrong use of terminology and/or bad understanding of basic cashflow mechanics FTL.

fox weik
Caldari
Caucasian Culture Club
Posted - 2009.12.10 20:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Wallymarts
Give us another money sink! :P

Ships are not an ISK sink. Quite the contrary, insurance payouts are quite heavy ISK faucets.
Wrong use of terminology and/or bad understanding of basic cashflow mechanics FTL.



they are sinks for T2/T3, payout covers T1 plus abit

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.12.10 21:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: fox weik
they are sinks for T2/T3, payout covers T1 plus abit

To qualify as "ISK sink" it must DESTROY the ISK.
However, ISK isn't destroyed when you purchase any ships (regardless of tech level), ISK merely changes player hands.

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.10 21:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Lyndisty Cotto
Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)
This comes from the nerf L4's crowd. Loot recycling is not the problem. Drone regions alloys are more of a problem. But the real problem, the big problem, the freaking huge problem is macro miners. They sit for 16 plus hours a day running a macro program and not only glut the market with ore, but sell it very cheap. Eliminate that and you'll have a real market again. There are people in this game that do little else to get isk to play the game. They buy PLEX's, shps, modules and many just use the isk to sell for real world money.

So little is done to these macroers, if anything, that I've even considered it myself and for the record, I hate that idea.

Windjammer


This has nothing to do with nerfing Level 4's, simply alter the reprocessing output of modules, which i agree may have an impact on level 2+ mission runners, but that can be countered with an increase mission rewards/bonuses.

When you consider that something like 48% (IIRC from one thread on MD) of the minerals on the market come from repocessed mods rather than mining there might be something wrong.

You mention the drone region alloys, why are they a problem in empire, the majority of them get reprocessed and sold on the local markets down there or used to build ships, and the only reason the Drones drop such large amounts of alloys is because drones dont have a bounty, and the alloys balance that.

I agree Stop the Macro'ers and the mineral prices may increase, however, a T3 barge that can mine faster will simply increase the problems caused by macro'ers.

Theres also a downside to making Mineral prices go up, the cost of ships and mods will increase, not everyone beleives mined minerals are free......

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.11 02:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Avalon Champion
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Lyndisty Cotto
Edited by: Lyndisty Cotto on 10/12/2009 17:15:50
I have a better idea... instead of making yet another new ship, make the mining profession as a whole useful. A new ship is just a new sparkly toy which does nothing to make the actual profession an integral part of New Eden. Step one on this process is a serious nerfing of loot recycling (which, coincidentally, would probably also be another thorn in the ISK-sellers' sides).

(Edit: apparently "ner***e" is a naughty word!)
This comes from the nerf L4's crowd. Loot recycling is not the problem. Drone regions alloys are more of a problem. But the real problem, the big problem, the freaking huge problem is macro miners. They sit for 16 plus hours a day running a macro program and not only glut the market with ore, but sell it very cheap. Eliminate that and you'll have a real market again. There are people in this game that do little else to get isk to play the game. They buy PLEX's, shps, modules and many just use the isk to sell for real world money.

So little is done to these macroers, if anything, that I've even considered it myself and for the record, I hate that idea.

Windjammer


This has nothing to do with nerfing Level 4's, simply alter the reprocessing output of modules, which i agree may have an impact on level 2+ mission runners, but that can be countered with an increase mission rewards/bonuses.
You're right. I read this too fast and missed the specific. Recently I've seen too many "nerf the L4's posts" and I reacted hastily. I don't believe there is much to be gained by an L4 mission runner in recycling the loot and therefore would not see a reduction in the product of such recycling as a significant nerf to the L4 mission runner. Thus I have no serious objections. On the other hand, and for the same reason, I do not see the necessity of nerfing the recycling of such loot. There's just not that much in the way of minerals that comes from it and even less that actually makes it to the market.

Originally by: Avalon Champion
When you consider that something like 48% (IIRC from one thread on MD) of the minerals on the market come from repocessed mods rather than mining there might be something wrong.
There might indeed be something wrong if that figure was believable. As a former miner, and a serious one, and current L4 mission runner I do not see the 48% figure as anything close to reality.

Originally by: Avalon Champion
You mention the drone region alloys, why are they a problem in empire, the majority of them get reprocessed and sold on the local markets down there or used to build ships, and the only reason the Drones drop such large amounts of alloys is because drones dont have a bounty, and the alloys balance that.
The argument here is that the alloys gained in the drone regions contain a lot of minerals normally found in ores located in 0.0 and low sec. Many argue, with some validity, that this has heavily impacted the rare minerals market throughout EVE. High and low sec's.

Originally by: Avalon Champion
I agree Stop the Macro'ers and the mineral prices may increase, however, a T3 barge that can mine faster will simply increase the problems caused by macro'ers.

Theres also a downside to making Mineral prices go up, the cost of ships and mods will increase, not everyone beleives mined minerals are free......
Here we are in complete agreement. I do not think people realize how many macroers there are in EVE or how difficult it is to get action taken against them. The most obvious are the macroers found in ice fields. However, there are others with macro programs of a more clever nature who use them to mine asteroid fields. These latter types can give a fair appearance of not being macro and do so by moving from field to field or simply alternating fields after every trip to the station. Yet all this moving is part of the macro program.

A T3 barge would increase the problem of macroers, true, but it would also increase the ability of the people who sit there and mine without a macro program. That would be a bit of a wash. Having said that, I still feel a T3 barge would be a pretty cool deal, eventually. Perhaps something with a bit more in the way of teeth. The real solution is to find a way to combat macro miners.

CCP is said to be working on the problem, but they naturally can't be everywhere at all times. There just isn't enough manpower. There are rumors of CCP creating a way for the players to help take care of the problem through a flagging mechanism, but to date that remains nothing more than a rumor.

Regards,
Windjammer

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2009.12.11 04:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Wallymarts
However, for a Hulk to mine in lowsec effectively (solo) you need million in modules.


The far bigger problem is that there isn't really any REASON to mine in low sec. At least outside a few exploration sites.

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.11 06:31:00 - [18]
 

Windjammer,

I do think we're in a lot of agreement, and the 48% module reprocessing was something on the MD forums, which i think it was backed up by Dr E's quarterly news letter at the time. However, I do suspect that a proportion of that reprocessing was also down to people using Mineral compression to move minerals out to 0.0, so it may have been lower.

Theres also people that just sell to buy orders, and those that buy to reprocess and either relist, or build more profitable items.

As for the Drone regions, i did live there 2 years ago, and to be honest the only thing that made ratting worth while was the drone alloys, as there where no bounties or officer drops as with other regions, if it wasnt for this there would be hardly any point having them, the other point is that the drone regions is Mexallon poor, so ratting is the only way to get mex, short of importing it by the frieghter load, which at 25+ jumps through hostile pipes was a logistic nightmare.

All that being said, I think it would be nice to have a T3 barge,
However, I think the whole mining system needs to be reviewed before this happens, if only to make it less AFK/macro friendly and more interactive, some suggestions from previous threads such as non-static bets (a la WH space), focused vein mining, would be a good start, and it may open the Niche for T3 barges, which have specific subsystems focused on vein mining bonuses.

Sen Quenten
House of Quenten
Posted - 2009.12.11 12:29:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Avalon Champion

This has nothing to do with nerfing Level 4's, simply alter the reprocessing output of modules, which i agree may have an impact on level 2+ mission runners, but that can be countered with an increase mission rewards/bonuses.



So what you're saying is that you want to reduce the influx of materials while at the same time increasing the flow of isk into the economy? And you expect this to help how? All this does is devalue isk as a whole by introducing another isk faucet (which we have too many of as is).

Originally by: Avalon Champion

When you consider that something like 48% (IIRC from one thread on MD) of the minerals on the market come from repocessed mods rather than mining there might be something wrong.


I really wish people would stop throwing this number around like it means something. When you realize that half of the minerals that get shipped out to 0.0 are shipped out there in the form of modules, you start to see where this number comes from. Freighter loads of minerals are purchased in empire, built into modules to compress them down, and shipped to 0.0 where they are once again melted down into their raw materials. This really pushes up the percentage but is completely meaningless when you look at the original source of materials.

Originally by: Avalon Champion

You mention the drone region alloys, why are they a problem in empire, the majority of them get reprocessed and sold on the local markets down there or used to build ships, and the only reason the Drones drop such large amounts of alloys is because drones dont have a bounty, and the alloys balance that.



Ok, this one really is a problem. Nobody's mining Zydrine in highsec. It either has to get mined in nullsec (ok, maybe low, but seriously, who does that?) or come from reprocessing. The problem is that drone alloys contain a very large amount of zyd. The people "mining" the drone regions controlled the price of Zydrine in all of Eve for quite some time. I'm not entirely sure if they still do, but I know they used to because I know alliances who actually worked to do so. And no, it's not sold on local markets. A huge percentage of it is shipped to empire for sale.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2009.12.11 13:12:00 - [20]
 

Make astorid fields something only to be found through exploration...

Now THAT would mess with the macro miners...

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.12 00:17:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Avalon Champion on 12/12/2009 00:23:13
Edited by: Avalon Champion on 12/12/2009 00:18:13
Originally by: Sen Quenten
Originally by: Avalon Champion

This has nothing to do with nerfing Level 4's, simply alter the reprocessing output of modules, which i agree may have an impact on level 2+ mission runners, but that can be countered with an increase mission rewards/bonuses.



So what you're saying is that you want to reduce the influx of materials while at the same time increasing the flow of isk into the economy? And you expect this to help how? All this does is devalue isk as a whole by introducing another isk faucet (which we have too many of as is).

Originally by: Avalon Champion

When you consider that something like 48% (IIRC from one thread on MD) of the minerals on the market come from repocessed mods rather than mining there might be something wrong.


I really wish people would stop throwing this number around like it means something. When you realize that half of the minerals that get shipped out to 0.0 are shipped out there in the form of modules, you start to see where this number comes from. Freighter loads of minerals are purchased in empire, built into modules to compress them down, and shipped to 0.0 where they are once again melted down into their raw materials. This really pushes up the percentage but is completely meaningless when you look at the original source of materials.

Originally by: Avalon Champion

You mention the drone region alloys, why are they a problem in empire, the majority of them get reprocessed and sold on the local markets down there or used to build ships, and the only reason the Drones drop such large amounts of alloys is because drones dont have a bounty, and the alloys balance that.



Ok, this one really is a problem. Nobody's mining Zydrine in highsec. It either has to get mined in nullsec (ok, maybe low, but seriously, who does that?) or come from reprocessing. The problem is that drone alloys contain a very large amount of zyd. The people "mining" the drone regions controlled the price of Zydrine in all of Eve for quite some time. I'm not entirely sure if they still do, but I know they used to because I know alliances who actually worked to do so. And no, it's not sold on local markets. A huge percentage of it is shipped to empire for sale.


firstly im ****ed as a newt, however read my second post where i state that mineral compression may play a part in the item reprocessing. (forgive my spelling and gammer errors)

secondly the done regions do not control the price of zydrine, the reason that nobody mine it in high sec is that unless you discover a high sec gneiss belt or lowsec belt of the same nature its not worth it compared to the price of trit which is freely available.

Unless you speak about level 4 drone alloys in hisec or some mods then they do not contain Zydrine in significant quantities.

This is not an argument about Zyrine but about T3 barges, and in my second post while a nice to have there are other features that in mining that need to be addressed, before the introduction of T3 barges

so please re-read the entire thread before misquoting me.

Again im ****ed as a newt so maybe not quite as co-herient as many others, i hope i remember this thread when im in a more sober frame of mind.

Thirdly There is no isk faucet here over and above other faction 0.0 regions, # as money is not genrated by CCP mearly based on trade, and drone loot in the drone regions is in line with the bounties on serpentis, angel or other npc income.


 

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