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Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:06:00 - [181]
 

I think that EVE is pretty fair.

I don't see why levelling the playing field between a veteran player and a new player is 'fair', infact that sounds pretty unfair. What the hell would be the point in the game, if after playing for years, you haven't gained an advantage in skill and knowledge over someone who has just started playing? This makes no sense.

Is chess unfair when a veteran player like Kasperov beats a new player? They are both subject to the same rules, the advantage comes from what has been invested in the game.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:09:00 - [182]
 

To the OP:

How many other games out there give rise to the 'PvP shakes'?....



...I think that answers your question.


Kitimortoa
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:12:00 - [183]
 

PVP means if you don't like it GTFO.

Khanstruct
Demonic Torment and Paroxysmal Rigorism
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:21:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Plim
I think that EVE is pretty fair.

I don't see why levelling the playing field between a veteran player and a new player is 'fair', infact that sounds pretty unfair. What the hell would be the point in the game, if after playing for years, you haven't gained an advantage in skill and knowledge over someone who has just started playing? This makes no sense.

Is chess unfair when a veteran player like Kasperov beats a new player? They are both subject to the same rules, the advantage comes from what has been invested in the game.


The chess analogy isn't even remotely close lol. I am positive once people thinking about playing eve find out how far behind they are/would be is when they decide to either not play or quit. If you want more people to play this game the gap needs to be closed some how. Lowering the pre reqs for skills like thermodynamics and cloaking was a good start.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:38:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Khanstruct
Edited by: Khanstruct on 08/12/2009 17:32:49
Edited by: Khanstruct on 08/12/2009 17:32:22
The eve community seems so destructive to itself, telling people to leave and what not. Eve is in pretty abysmal shape compared to other mmo's.


Really? Compared to who?

Quote:

Eve isn't about skill it's about how much time your account has been subbed bottom line.

Thats proved wrong every day in EVE.

Quote:

I play solely because I have RL friends that play.


Go visit them instead.

Billybob Braggins
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:41:00 - [186]
 

critique:

well worded op, 9/10 content (should have had stealth baits like punching women etc)
should have kept it at 1 post, this definitely had lasting potential

7/10 for bumping it

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:54:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Khanstruct

The eve community seems so destructive to itself, telling people to leave and what not. Eve is in pretty abysmal shape compared to other mmo's.

Eve will never be fair, Eve isn't about skill it's about how much time your account has been subbed bottom line. I play solely because I have RL friends that play.

If I want something fair and based on skill I'll play starcraft.


Confirming that if you pay me 300M ISK I'll tell you the secret Wormhole location where the Because Of E-Honour Fair And Chivalrous PvP Society meets to hold its noble contests. ugh

Hooded Hauler
Posted - 2009.12.08 18:58:00 - [188]
 

Ok I'll bite

Originally by: Tuscun Nebular

While conversing with some other player's of mmo games, I was told that they have in fact tried to play Eve, but discontinued the game because of and they used words like "frustrating" Because of the game is "hard to learn" and for the most part they have felt that eve online was a "waste of time" " with no up front or immediate gratifications"

why should EVE be like all the other MMO's?

What if a player doesn't want to become involved in pvp action?

avoiding PVP if you want to is easy, hundreds of empire dwellers to it everyday. If you're in lowsec/nulsec, you can leave

Why should a player who just started out in the game mining with one little ship have his ore stolen while transporting a load to a station?

Nobody forces you to use a jetcan

Why are seasoned players able to extort new players? (Give me isk or I'll destroy your ship)

Don't go to lowsec

Why does a non willing pvp player have to answer to another player should be ashamed of calling himself a gamer because he destroys a noobs ship.

What?

Why are seasoned players who obviously out gun a noobs ship by a million to one able to destroy that ship for no reason?

There is a reason, they enjoy doing it. It's fun

It takes months to learn Eve online, and obtain the mass amount of isk to buy not only the ship, but all of the other required items to run that ship

No it doesn't

Wouldn't it make sense to level the playing field a little? If pvp is to remain as is, why not at least let a new players get to a certain level, or enable that new player to obtain a certain status and equipment equivalent to another more seasoned player, so the noob doesn't lose all that he/she's worked for in seconds?

It already exists. It's called high sec

Why can't a player warp to a location for space exploration, or maybe to view a battle without getting blown to bits?

use a covops

Let's see just how tough those bully's are when the noobs are able defend themselves! Let's see if those tough guys laugh in videos like seen on you tube when the playing field is leveled!

Ok, just wait a few months while your SP goes up like everybody else. Also, SP != player skill

There is a consensus out in the gaming world (Like in my brother's cafe) as well as with some of the players of Eve Online that the playing filed isn't fair to all players.

Your brother's cafe is not the 'gaming world'. Also, why should the playing field be level? Name me one MMO where you start in the same place as somebody that's played for 5 years

Why does eve online have a "dishearten" word of mouth among players who stop playing Eve?

because like you, they couldn't handle it and they blame the game rather than themselves

Why can't CCP make it so that they have millions of subscribers like in other mmos? Heck even within the fan fest one of your ccp reps stated that Eve isn't for everyone.

Why do we want millions of subscribers? Why should it be for everyone? WoW isn't for me, should they make it more like EVE so I enjoy it more? Please name 10 subscription MMOs with a larger subscriber base than EVE

Well, why not make it for everyone to enjoy? Why not take a player's vote, and let the chips fall? I and other players believe that eve is a good game, (I have 3 payee accounts and also subscribe to Eon's yearly subscription, shows how much I like this game)

If you like it, why are you whining?

Eve has the potential to be a great game.

It already is, sorry

Make the game less frustrating, and watch how many people join.

k



zarlack coldhand
Posted - 2009.12.08 19:01:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Plim
I think that EVE is pretty fair.

I don't see why levelling the playing field between a veteran player and a new player is 'fair', infact that sounds pretty unfair. What the hell would be the point in the game, if after playing for years, you haven't gained an advantage in skill and knowledge over someone who has just started playing? This makes no sense.

Is chess unfair when a veteran player like Kasperov beats a new player? They are both subject to the same rules, the advantage comes from what has been invested in the game.

If the case was were Kasperov has only queens and a king the new player has only pawns and king who wins.

That is how alot of new players to EvE see the PvP aspect to the game.

just my 2 isk


Dirk Culliford
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.12.08 19:04:00 - [190]
 

Can't handle the heat? Well don't step into the fire! Laughing

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.12.08 19:06:00 - [191]
 

Here is how a noobie makes the transition from trial to lifer...

He gets in the badger, fits a miner. Gets a tip from a forum or wherever about a certain kind of rock in a hostile area of space (maybe even a wormhole) being worth just a little bit more to mine. He calculates the risk to himself and says "F- it, i'm gonna go try it anyway!". He goes into that hostile region of space and mines his rock like he wanted. Maybe he gets blown up, or maybe he gets away... It doesn't matter because his smile is just as big regardless. He just got his taste of goal oriented gaming, where that, he conceived a plan, prepared for it, and saw it through for better or worse, the point being it MATTERED.

That is the kind of player who falls in love with this game.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.08 19:20:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Octa Butler
Originally by: Windjammer
Post 165 of this thread.


I'm sorry I cannot pass this up. Sure life is not fair, but let me ask you this. Do you think the 50% that passed that class got better jobs or were better able to accomplish their goals than the other 50%?
Yes, of course they did. Not all, but absolutely a higher percentage were successful than were the 50% who proved they could not or would not shoulder the load.

Originally by: Octa Butler
I would guess that 75% of the "failures" got what they wanted in the end.
I would also guess that 25% of the passing grade failed in what they wanted. I would also guess that at least 50% of the entire class is probably unhappy in their life even if they have succeeded or failed. In fact some of the "failures" may be the happiest people you will ever meet.
That's an awful lot of guess work apparently based upon…….well nothing, really.

Originally by: Octa Butler
So what does the above paragraph mean? It means that your prof's advice was utterly meaningless. The whole success/failure is based mostly on random chance as opposed to any working you will do. Of course this is in real life.
I see. You believe playing the lottery gives you as much chance of success as any work you may do. What a productive employee you must be.

Originally by: Octa Butler
So this brings me to this point. Eve is not real life. I don't think people in this thread really get that. Spouting real life stories (and my above analysis) is really meaningless in this context. What matters in this context is fun/satisfaction. If you get this, you will likely play. If not, probably not. I personally believe the OP is right in his/her implication and that if CCP changed the ruleset they'd probably get more players. I also think this is one reason why CCP will never go public I mean they'd be forced to do their fiduciary duty and change the game so that it brings in the most money. I have no opinion whether this would be a good thing or bad thing, I really could care less. Why? The fun equation, no matter what CCP does if I have fun I'll probably play, if I don't have fun, I won't.
You've only guessed at the point I made. Which seems to be your main mode of analysis. Guessing. I was not saying that a game is real life. Not EVE. Not any other game. My point was that EVE is a game designed to emulate the cold realities of life in a cold and unforgiving political/economic/environmental situation. It does a fair job of that. That's why EVE was not originally designed to be fair except in terms of everyone having the same opportunities, or tool set, to work with.

Everyone starts the same. Where you end up is entirely up to you and chance is only one component of that end result. What you do with chance, lucky or otherwise, dictates your success or failure.

I would suggest the reason you play EVE is because you enjoy it. I enjoy EVE because it is not fair by most peoples standards. By most peoples standards fair means they enter a game and are almost immediately as powerful as anyone else who has been there for years. I and most of those who have played EVE for years enjoy the complexity of a game that is not "fair".


Windjammer

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.12.08 19:32:00 - [193]
 

all the people are correct that say EVE is in a terrible shape and will be the next MMO to bite the dust, as it's too harsh for newbies. this graph clearly shows this.

ohwait...

Shuddayomoufa
Posted - 2009.12.08 20:07:00 - [194]
 

As a carebear that has played on and off since beta, with NO kills to my name , (It used to be humiliating, but I consider it a badge of honor. Just think how humiliated the other guy will be when I make my first kill!) ,I have to put in my two cents:
Two times I have rage quit because I did something stupid. One was when I put every dime into an ill-fitted BS and went to mine (!) alone in 0.0 (!), with no insurance (!) The other is when I took my finely fitted hulk to mine alone in 0.0 with no insurance and no ISK backup.
Two other times I quit because I was bored because all I did was mine in hisec. Imagine that.
Now I do a little PvP but still suck. What is the most fun for me is exploring in 0.0 while playing hide and seek in lowsec. I get caught, but I also get away a lot too. The best is when I have 20 mill in data cores in my hold and I am making a break for safety. The whole time I am chatting with my pursuer in local.
Exploring would be so boring if I wasn’t looking over my shoulder all of the time. Your idea of making it "even" would destroy this game. This is coming from someone with no kills since this game started.
My advice? Go play bejeweled blitz.

Mishirosen
Posted - 2009.12.08 20:21:00 - [195]
 

PvP is when one player fights another player, or sometimes there's more than two.

Rockinan
Posted - 2009.12.08 20:58:00 - [196]
 

Hello. My name is Bob (yes literally my name is Bob) and I'm an eX-WoW addict.

About a year ago, I tried the EVE trial. I admit, I was put off by the learning curve. I was intimidated by the reports of being ransomed (still intimidates me). So, I quit. I didn't /cry about it. I just knew at that time, it was not for me.

Now, fast forward to present. During the time gap my on-line breadth grew past the 2-dimensional gaming of WoW. I tried several other MMO's. LOTRO, WAR, AoC and they all had something in common... WoW roots. Sure, they went about things a bit different, but at the heart... their core was WoW in sheep's clothes.

I was hungry for something more substantial. Something with more depth than log in, do dailies, build gold and run the Daily Heroic for badges and turn them in for gear. And, after a day of 15 or 18 hrs of playing, going to bed feeling like you just ate five year old left-overs.

Two days ago, I decided to cancel my WoW account and left many friends to venture to EVE. I have read the forums and guides until my head hurts (literally). I have watched more youtube than I ever have. and I now know, that EVE will provide the depth that I long for.

Games like EVE, more specifically the learning curve, does go against the grain of the modern perception of on-line gaming. I'm not bashing WoW - I played if for nearly 3 years. But, after a while, it's time to graduate to a deeper environment.

EVE provides an immersion factor that is difficult to shake once you get past the initial learning curve. Luckily for me, this time when I picked it up, I knew what I was getting into and I look forward to learning and experiencing what EVE has to offer.

Rock (Bob)

db T
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.12.09 01:48:00 - [197]
 

That is some nice ****ing flamebait.

Grimstate
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.12.09 02:06:00 - [198]
 

crappy computer programmers

Solj RichPopolous
Amarr
Templars of Space
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2009.12.09 04:38:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 09/12/2009 04:41:51
pvp in eve will always be a blob because half these people couldn't fit a ship properly or fly it correctly to save their lives.

look at half the people who post on the forums priding themselves that they play a pvp challenging game, when all their killmails have 10-20+ people on it other than themselves, did 1% of total damage but yet think they are somehow upholding to the eve code. seems to me they are the ones looking for the risk free WOW pvp.

and then check their loss mails and see the lol fits they have which is why they only roll in blobs in the first place.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.12.09 05:51:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
To the OP:

How many other games out there give rise to the 'PvP shakes'?....



...I think that answers your question.




What you're talking about is nervousness, and it's not exclusive to this game. I was a nervous wreck for my first few Battlefield games for example, so chaotic, and i knew that everyone was much better than me, but after a month or two i was numb to it all and my confidence grew.

If you're still getting the 'PvP shakes' in EVE, just wait, they'll go away after awhile too. Even people who engage in real life PvP lose the nervousness in time.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.12.09 17:06:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 09/12/2009 17:07:04
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
If you're still getting the 'PvP shakes' in EVE, just wait, they'll go away after awhile too. Even people who engage in real life PvP lose the nervousness in time.



oh you're somewhat wrong there.

the shakes can decrease with time, but they never go away, specially when it's one of those slugfest fights with roaming gangs and whatnot.

the shakes, they never go away. trust me. 6 years of eve tell me thisRazz

Originally by: Zeba
I read this with Dennis Hopper's voice in my mind. Surprised


and now I asked a corpie to do a Dennis Hopper sig with part of that quoteugh

TechDealer
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.12.09 18:13:00 - [202]
 

In short dont like the game just quit the game. no point telling ccp what to do.

I also find it hard to believe they actually have 100k players. maybe 1/4 of this 100k are alts. Another thing is playing a game with a steeper learning curve doesn't make ur smarter. Paying 15 bucks for 30 days to log in click and wait for skill to lvl up for 30 days or more is fun? if so good for you. seriously how smart does this get?

May i suggest restaurant city in face book is free and the concept of log click wait unlog is pretty similiar to eve lol.

Opportunity Costs
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.09 18:19:00 - [203]
 

-pay 11% tax
-never leave The Forge

kthx

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.09 18:30:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: zarlack coldhand
Originally by: Plim
I think that EVE is pretty fair.

I don't see why levelling the playing field between a veteran player and a new player is 'fair', infact that sounds pretty unfair. What the hell would be the point in the game, if after playing for years, you haven't gained an advantage in skill and knowledge over someone who has just started playing? This makes no sense.

Is chess unfair when a veteran player like Kasperov beats a new player? They are both subject to the same rules, the advantage comes from what has been invested in the game.

If the case was were Kasperov has only queens and a king the new player has only pawns and king who wins.

That is how alot of new players to EvE see the PvP aspect to the game.

just my 2 isk




That may how they see it, but then they see it wrong.

EVE is like RL, and noobs are like kids, still new to a world they don't yet understand. But all the gorwn ups got the advantage, so the kid needs to grow up to take part in the world proper.

EVE is the only game that offers such concepts.

No other MMO I have seen offers actual freedom to make your own path in game. TO make out of it what you want to make out of it. Want to be a merc? Be a merc, no tools needd for it. Want to be a pirate? Be a pirate, no need to make tools for it spesifically. Want to be an emperor? Make an a allaince and claim space, no need ot have an emperor calss in game. etc etc etc.

Thats the beauty of EVE, there is no need for tools to do things. No need for CCP to hold you fragile little hand and guid you through a happy la la land of a game.

EVE provides a consisten one shard world and a set of basic skills, ships and tools. The players choose how to use these tools within the game world. No need for artifical alliance vs hord wars (thats why I kind of dislike faction war), no need for a class system, no need for level grinding.

Carebears don't understand these concpets and they think a game should be like a WOW copy where everyhting is handed to you, no need to think.

And lets be clear: industry is not carebear as some have tohught. Market PVP exist.

A carebear is a "typical WOW player".


Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.09 21:28:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
EVE provides a consisten one shard world and a set of basic skills, ships and tools. The players choose how to use these tools within the game world. No need for artifical alliance vs hord wars (thats why I kind of dislike faction war), no need for a class system, no need for level grinding.

Carebears don't understand these concpets and they think a game should be like a WOW copy where everyhting is handed to you, no need to think.

And lets be clear: industry is not carebear as some have tohught. Market PVP exist.

A carebear is a "typical WOW player".


I wonder. Do you classify all industrialists this way? All are carebears? If you do, you're mistaken. While you may call them carebears, you're often only half right. They may be bears, but they really don't care. Bears have teeth and claws and they aren't all that fuzzy and cuddly. They're great big hairy killing machines.

Windjammer

Trader20
Posted - 2009.12.09 22:29:00 - [206]
 

PvP is a 100+ man gate camp r@ping a T1 frig.

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2009.12.10 00:24:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: zarlack coldhand
Originally by: Plim
I think that EVE is pretty fair.

I don't see why levelling the playing field between a veteran player and a new player is 'fair', infact that sounds pretty unfair. What the hell would be the point in the game, if after playing for years, you haven't gained an advantage in skill and knowledge over someone who has just started playing? This makes no sense.

Is chess unfair when a veteran player like Kasperov beats a new player? They are both subject to the same rules, the advantage comes from what has been invested in the game.

If the case was were Kasperov has only queens and a king the new player has only pawns and king who wins.

That is how alot of new players to EvE see the PvP aspect to the game.

just my 2 isk




Of course it occured to me that a noob has less hardware available to them when they start playing, but that's not the point of the analogy, however I thought that that was so obvious that I wouldn't have to point it out Rolling Eyes

The skill and time invested of the superior chess player is also analogous to the equipment accumulated by the veteran player in EVE, along with their skill in the game.

The point is that in reality all things are equal in EVE, we all have to go through the same processes to be succesful, and the success of the veteran player does not preclude the success of the new player, sensibly CCP has designed the game that way. Those evil doing players who kill noobs in belts were also noobs at one point getting pwned in belts. But instead of getting angry and quiting the game, they decided to learn from it. This seems like a fair picture.

In light of this, a noob having the capacity to be be a threat to someone who has developed much more skill and has invested much more time in the game would be unfair.

Personally one of my favourite times in the game was in 2003 when I was a noob, facing superior pilots who had played the game for longer and employing my critical faculties to try and figure out how to beat them. Maybe I'm a minority, but I find that difficulty fun. This game isn't for everyone.

However, just to provide another chess related analogy. The people who do something idiotic, like jumping into a 0.4 system and getting their ships ganked, are somewhat like someone leaving their knight undefended while it's under threat by their opponents queen, then complaining about how unfair it is that they took it with a superior piece, despite having the opportunity to move it to safety. A big part of the game is knowing how to employ the resources available to you in a logical fashion.

As I always say, in EVE you get yourself killed, people get blown up because they put themselves in an unwinnable situation in the first place. The queen is no threat to a pawn it cannot attack.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.12.10 01:06:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
oh you're somewhat wrong there.

the shakes can decrease with time, but they never go away, specially when it's one of those slugfest fights with roaming gangs and whatnot.

the shakes, they never go away. trust me. 6 years of eve tell me thisRazz


I suppose it has much to do with personality types, also.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2009.12.10 14:21:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 10/12/2009 14:21:44
Originally by: Octa Butler
I'm sorry I cannot pass this up. Sure life is not fair, but let me ask you this. Do you think the 50% that passed that class got better jobs or were better able to accomplish their goals than the other 50%?

I would guess that 75% of the "failures" got what they wanted in the end.
I would also guess that 25% of the passing grade failed in what they wanted. I would also guess that at least 50% of the entire class is probably unhappy in their life even if they have succeeded or failed. In fact some of the "failures" may be the happiest people you will ever meet.

So what does the above paragraph mean? It means that your prof's advice was utterly meaningless. The whole success/failure is based mostly on random chance as opposed to any working you will do. Of course this is in real life.
LOL

Typical self entitlement rather than earning through hard work, bet you've had people telling you how smart you are all your life rather than congratulating you for working hard to overcome the obstacles you face.

Why don't people get it? You get out of Eve what you put into it. It doesn't artificially pat you on the head for putting time in, nor does it set you goals, but instead gives you the ability choose your own goals and figure out how to achieve them for yourself.

Despite all th things the players love to hate it's success is defined by this since it offers an alternative. CCP don't give a **** how many hate it and never play again, but how many love it and do. If that minority is enough to keep the game growing at a reasonable pace they don't give a **** about how many others shed tears becauyse they can't hack it.

Madla Mafia
Posted - 2009.12.10 15:28:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Madla Mafia on 10/12/2009 15:28:18
Why is there 7 pages worth of junk in this thread?!? It is really simple. PvP is "Player versus Player." So if you are talking combat, then any combat involving two players (or more) is considered PvP. Ganking haulers, suicide runs, alliance fleet battles, it's ALL PVP!!!


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