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blankseplocked Are Gallente blaster ships somewhat fixed now w/ trackin enhancer buf?
 
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London
Imminent Ruin
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.12.05 08:46:00 - [1]
 

I'm seeing reasonable range on Deimos', Enyos', and ilk.
It's a far cry from the glory days, but at least it's a step in the right direction against the tyranny of lazzzoor beams.

It seems like kiting blaster ships is going to be more difficult now at the very least.

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2009.12.05 10:15:00 - [2]
 

Wheres the slots for TEs coming from?

On a shield cane / vaga they fit nicely.

On a deimos? you either lose dps or part of your lollar tank.

A brutix can fit 1 in shield gank mode but thats about it. Megas / hypes don't have the option either.

Ecky X
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.12.05 11:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Grut
Wheres the slots for TEs coming from?


It's probably better than a 3rd magstab.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.05 12:00:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 05/12/2009 12:00:32
Originally by: london

It seems like kiting blaster ships is going to be more difficult now at the very least.



If you not fit 2-3 the effect is hardly noticeable on a medium ship, also you trade in a lot gank or tank for it, what kills you to.

Originally by: Ecky X
Originally by: Grut
Wheres the slots for TEs coming from?


It's probably better than a 3rd magstab.


Depends, in a bigger gang yes since you can apply damage faster and won´t hug single targets but constantly moving to the next. Plus you go full null anyway with a neutron Brutix here. In smaller gangs where the ship is more reasonable you use antimatter, where the difference in falloff/tracking is hardly noticeable and the mag stab will still be the the first choice.


kyrieee
Bite me inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2009.12.05 15:55:00 - [5]
 

It helps a in ranges where blaster boats do very little damage anyway
For example, a Mega with Neutrons, CN AM and a TC w/ range script will do 60% more damage at 20km compared with the old TCs, but you won't be shooting with AM at that range anyway because its damage went from pathetic to slightly less pathetic. You'd be using Null which gains 9% damage at that range compared to the old TC. The damage increase for AM in ranges where it's actually effective is about the same. If you look at how much further you can shoot and maintain the same damage it's about 1.5-3km more in ranges you'd be using the guns.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2009.12.05 17:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 05/12/2009 17:28:26
The short answer is that it's too early to tell. So much got changed in the dominion expansion that it's going to take a while for the dust to settle and new tactics to develop.

On EFT it does make a clear difference. You can expand your range AND tracking. The latter has been a big complaint on blasters. Two of the three Gallenete BS have five midslots and two have seven low slots. It's hard to make a case where you ABSOLUTELY could not fit either an unscripted tracking computer or a tracking enhancer. Trading a magstab for a TE costs about 100 DPS. More optimal, more falloff, and better tracking. Would you rather do 60% of 900 DPS due to poor tracking or 80% of 800 DPS AND hit farther?

Gallente Pilots are very reluctant to leave their cookie cutter setups. That's my sharpest criticism of the "boost webs" crowd. If anything I would want a slight boost to the damage potential of blasters at the mid and large ship range - say 100 more DPS at the BS level. People should be terrified to see a mega at point blank range and that fear factor isn't there anymore.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.12.05 17:35:00 - [7]
 

Dropping the 2nd Magstab for a TE doesn't even come into question m8
You don't get more damage at any range even with tracking taken into consideration

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2009.12.05 17:43:00 - [8]
 

I meant a TE or a third magstab.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.12.05 17:45:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 05/12/2009 17:47:27
Originally by: ropnes
Dropping the 2nd Magstab for a TE doesn't even come into question m8
You don't get more damage at any range even with tracking taken into consideration


Nonsense. Even without taking tracking into consideration you gain quite nicely on the damage envelope by dropping 2nd MFS for a TE.

Its not like suddenly Megathrons are always at their optimal magically, with the best choice ammo type loaded.

(And if they are, the TE is a step into having your old 90% webs back).

ropnes
Posted - 2009.12.05 18:11:00 - [10]
 

Rolling Eyes

On a BS with 100 m/s transversal TE + MFS out-damages 2x MFS at 20km with Null, 12km with CN AM (at which point neither is doing particularly great damage and you should use Null or get closer). When you get closer TE + MFS is severely out-damaged by 2x MFS

Why would you fit a blaster mega for 20km+ when it still does pathetic damage there?

RougeOperator
Posted - 2009.12.05 18:12:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: RougeOperator on 05/12/2009 19:22:12
Edited by: RougeOperator on 05/12/2009 18:13:44
I admit I don't fly gallente blaster boats often, so I am just using EFT to get a grasp of this.

I would have thought it like this

Megathron forgot to post the ship

Lows 2 mag stab 1 TE, rest tank

Mid 1 tracking comp, Points, webs, MWD or Cap booster in mid depending on what you are doing.

High GUNS LOTS OF THEM.

With heavy neutrons II, drones and what not you should be doing 800 to almost 1000 dps depending on drones and ammo. And all this with better tracking, and Falloff with your guns.

With my skills, which are pretty low to average, with null I have 13km opt, 22km falloff with this fit and .064 tracking. That bonus is +2 opt +7 falloff, and original un-boosted tracking .0507.

With Antimatter its 5.3 opt, 18 km falloff .084 tracking again based on my current skills. +1 opt, +6 falloff, also normal tracking without TE and TC is .067

There is also swapping scripts around for different advantages.

Maybe someone can graph this? And if TE are worth it. My gut tells me you will do more damage with a TE and TC.

EDIT: EST tank on my ship was 86,726 vs average damage. With one RR fit.

London
Imminent Ruin
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.12.05 19:20:00 - [12]
 

Thanks for the responses guys.
I don't find it difficult to fit a TE or TC on most blaster ships, so I definitely see this going in the right direction.
The big issue for me was being ineffective within scrambler/web range while operating a smaller ship like an interceptor. A Ranis actually has nice range now with Neutrons + Null and a tracking enhancer instead of a mag stab; save the rig slots for hybrid damage rigs.

And a Mega with Neutrons, Null, and two Tracking Comps has pretty epic range for a blaster ship now. :P

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.12.05 19:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ropnes

Why would you fit a blaster mega for 20km+ when it still does pathetic damage there?


Why would you fit an AC tempest for 20km+ when it still does pathetic damage there? And does pathetic damage at point blank? And gets outdamaged by the Mega at all ranges?

Because sometimes the target happens to appear at those ranges, more often than not actually, and because RR BS gangs happen to have this restriction about needing to be inside 8km to their gangmates.

The thing is, in the large majority of engagements you will want to cover a bubble of about 30km with your guns, you lose almost nothing by switching a MFS or Gyrostab for a TE but gain in most cases.

If you know you'll be at point blank the majority of your engagements, then by all means go ahead and keep the MFS, after all blasters are perfectly fine at those ranges.

Insa Rexion
Minmatar
Fumar Puede Matar
Posted - 2009.12.05 20:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Grut
Wheres the slots for TEs coming from?

On a shield cane / vaga they fit nicely.

On a deimos? you either lose dps or part of your lollar tank.

A brutix can fit 1 in shield gank mode but thats about it. Megas / hypes don't have the option either.



wait , they gave all other races (esp minnies who the "buff" was for) extra slots ?

/me goes to check patch notes

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.12.05 22:03:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 05/12/2009 22:09:30
Originally by: Insa Rexion

wait , they gave all other races (esp minnies who the "buff" was for) extra slots ?

/me goes to check patch notes


No, but it's generally much less painful to fit TEs on shield tanked minnie ships than gallente ships. For example on my mega I'd have to drop either a plate, an eanm or 1 of 2 mag stabs to fit a single TE. rokh is actually the only blaster BS to really get much out of TEs.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2009.12.05 22:22:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 05/12/2009 22:09:30
Originally by: Insa Rexion

wait , they gave all other races (esp minnies who the "buff" was for) extra slots ?

/me goes to check patch notes


No, but it's generally much less painful to fit TEs on shield tanked minnie ships than gallente ships. For example on my mega I'd have to drop either a plate, an eanm or 1 of 2 mag stabs to fit a single TE. rokh is actually the only blaster BS to really get much out of TEs.


It's harder but not impossible. Mids can fit tracking computers if giving up gank or tank is too difficult- unscripted give a nice tracking boost with optimal and falloff boosts. Tracking is a large issue for blasters.

Natasha Nikolaev
Posted - 2009.12.05 23:04:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Natasha Nikolaev on 05/12/2009 23:06:19
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
It's harder but not impossible.


It's not worth it.


Quote:
Mids can fit tracking computers if giving up gank or tank is too difficult- unscripted give a nice tracking boost with optimal and falloff boosts. Tracking is a large issue for blasters.


You can't really afford giving up mids, either. Certainly not for only 7.5/15 bonus to opti/falloff.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.12.05 23:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: ropnes

Why would you fit a blaster mega for 20km+ when it still does pathetic damage there?


Why would you fit an AC tempest for 20km+ when it still does pathetic damage there? And does pathetic damage at point blank? And gets outdamaged by the Mega at all ranges?

Because sometimes the target happens to appear at those ranges, more often than not actually, and because RR BS gangs happen to have this restriction about needing to be inside 8km to their gangmates.

The thing is, in the large majority of engagements you will want to cover a bubble of about 30km with your guns, you lose almost nothing by switching a MFS or Gyrostab for a TE but gain in most cases.

If you know you'll be at point blank the majority of your engagements, then by all means go ahead and keep the MFS, after all blasters are perfectly fine at those ranges.


If you have a SR BS gang with Megas in it and the enemy gang is at out of blaster range then the FC fked up. You don't fit long range weapons for short range in case you need to engage at short range, and you don't fit short range weapons for medium range. At 20km+ Gal BS should be using rails

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.12.05 23:27:00 - [19]
 

The answer to the original question is:

'Lollerskates'

Exclamation

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.12.05 23:32:00 - [20]
 

hm suppose its worth it rather than a 3rd magstab. Myrmidon would be a good ship to fit blasters/shieldtank, but since no damage bonus everyone fits lasers or autos anyway.

hmmm...

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.12.06 00:49:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 06/12/2009 00:57:03
Originally by: Letifer Deus

No, but it's generally much less painful to fit TEs on shield tanked minnie ships than gallente ships. For example on my mega I'd have to drop either a plate, an eanm or 1 of 2 mag stabs to fit a single TE. rokh is actually the only blaster BS to really get much out of TEs.


Less painful how? Not all minnie ships are shield tanked, and typically the modules that occupy the slots you would switch for TEs are there for a reason and not for ****s and giggles.

Its not like that now that they have the new TE they suddenly tank better and can give up on proper range dictation, or magically deal more damage so you can drop damage mods.

Originally by: ropnes
If you have a SR BS gang with Megas in it and the enemy gang is at out of blaster range then the FC fked up. You don't fit long range weapons for short range in case you need to engage at short range, and you don't fit short range weapons for medium range. At 20km+ Gal BS should be using rails


20-30km is short range, bring a long-range BS gang into that range and you go down in a fire (aka your FC fked up). Now I'm not saying you should absolutely fit your Megas for that range envelope, but if you are expecting to engage at that range and below if things go your way, then you should do it.

Anyway, my point is you have the option now on the Mega, if you wanna use it or not is your call, in a gang that primarily consists of Megas you would still want to land in point blank range with maximum gank fitting, but the question remains how you can ensure that?

Hadrielloress
Posted - 2009.12.06 01:16:00 - [22]
 

There is also the advantage you get when primary are switched in and engagement and the new primary is outside the normal short ranges of the Blaster. Having a 30KM range bubble around a ship has more pros then Cons. And you might get more out of it then the third mag stab that is stacking penalized.


Madner Kami
Gallente
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2009.12.06 02:29:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Madner Kami on 06/12/2009 02:30:22
Originally by: Hadrielloress
There is also the advantage you get when primary are switched in and engagement and the new primary is outside the normal short ranges of the Blaster. Having a 30KM range bubble around a ship has more pros then Cons. And you might get more out of it then the third mag stab that is stacking penalized.




Plus more range is an indirect damage boost, too, since you can still use a shorter range ammo, while a similarly equipped enemy with gyro/heatsinks/magstabs instead of TEs has to switch to a longer range ammo to still be more or less in optimal range, which lowers his damage output, plus you also have superior tracking versus that dude.

However, if you're there for ganking in a fleet and your target will be held down by the dedicated tacklers, it is of course more usefull to go for full gankage. It's just circumstantial, like always and I doubt there's really much use in trying to solve this with graphs, I guess.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2009.12.06 05:44:00 - [24]
 

If blasters need a change it needs to be a damage boost - especially at the BS level. For being knife fighters that up close advantage needs to be substantial. As it is it's very narrow compared to Amarr - and laughable once you consider range.

It's better vs the AC dmg potential - with higher optimal, but that's still not a great benchmark. The mega w/ two megstabs and the best faction close range ammo only outdoes the Tempest by 100DPS - drones not included.

Range is fine. Tracking is fine. I say that because there are definite options now. If you choose to keep the plates and the max damage- that's your choice. Boost the damage though.

Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.12.06 07:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: ropnes
If you have a SR BS gang with Megas in it and the enemy gang is at out of blaster range then the FC fked up. You don't fit long range weapons for short range in case you need to engage at short range, and you don't fit short range weapons for medium range. At 20km+ Gal BS should be using rails

20-30km is short range,

In low sec 20-30k is mid range and short range combat is commen around undock points and gates. I don't fly in 0.0 but blaster Mega's work fine up close in low sec.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.12.06 07:37:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Are Gallente blaster ships somewhat fixed now w/ trackin enhancer buf?


Absolutely not.

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2009.12.06 09:05:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Insa Rexion
Originally by: Grut
Wheres the slots for TEs coming from?

On a shield cane / vaga they fit nicely.

On a deimos? you either lose dps or part of your lollar tank.

A brutix can fit 1 in shield gank mode but thats about it. Megas / hypes don't have the option either.



wait , they gave all other races (esp minnies who the "buff" was for) extra slots ?

/me goes to check patch notes


Because on a cane/vaga you can swap nanos for TE's and stick poly rigs on?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.12.06 11:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Grut

Because on a cane/vaga you can swap nanos for TE's and stick poly rigs on?


And that generates more slots? Or do you usually leave the rig slots empty?

People seem to not understand that dropping performance in other fields to make room for a module is not the same as a free (=unfitted) slot.

Madner Kami
Gallente
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2009.12.06 12:08:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Madner Kami on 06/12/2009 12:12:57
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Grut

Because on a cane/vaga you can swap nanos for TE's and stick poly rigs on?


And that generates more slots? Or do you usually leave the rig slots empty?

People seem to not understand that dropping performance in other fields to make room for a module is not the same as a free (=unfitted) slot.


Usually many of the cookie-cutter Matari-ships use falloff-rigs, don't they? TEs are better then falloff-rigs, because they add optimal, tracking and even more falloff, while Polycarbs and Nanofibers have nearly the same effect. So you "move" the Nanos to the rig-slots and "switch" your old rigs for something better in the now free low slots.

The result is a ship, that is slightly slower and agile but instead has much more tracking, more optimal, more falloff and even more EHP (less armor instead of much less structure) and slightly different fitting options (more free PG, less CPU) - stats taken from EFT:
Polycarb I: Agility+8.1% Armor-10% Speed+5.5%
Nanofiber II: Agility+9.4% Structure-20% Speed+15.8%
Projectile Ambit I: Falloff+15% TurretPG+10%
Tracking Enhancer II: Optimal+15% Falloff+30% Tracking+9.5%

Dunno for sure if that is viable for a Vagabond, since I never flew one, but it sure as hell works for the Hurricane.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.12.06 20:19:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 06/12/2009 20:22:16
Originally by: Madner Kami

Usually many of the cookie-cutter Matari-ships use falloff-rigs, don't they? TEs are better then falloff-rigs, because they add optimal, tracking and even more falloff, while Polycarbs and Nanofibers have nearly the same effect. So you "move" the Nanos to the rig-slots and "switch" your old rigs for something better in the now free low slots.



Vagabond usually had falloff rigs, so you switch either a damage mod or a nanofiber to the rig slots (this needs 2 rig slots!) and replace it with a TE. No slots are generated here though, and the gained tracking + cpu is irrelevant for the ship, while the gained pg is only marginally useful at best.

Hurricane usually didnt have those in the first place, moving a speed mod or damage mod to rig slots usually means giving up a lot of EHP.

Tempest will be using trimark rigs and that isnt gonna change, there really isnt a low slot you can switch to rigs, you might give up one of your two damage mods though.

The added optimal range is pretty much irrelevant, same for the tracking as autocannons did hit their targets just fine before, and those they didnt hit they dont hit now either.


What I'm getting at is, people seem to believe minmatar ships have slots filled with modules they didnt really need and suddenly gain a massive advantage with the new module, which simply isnt true.


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