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Ashmira Wintereyes
Caldari
Free Spirits
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:27:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: midspan
my appologies I did not. Gotten use to constantley being defensive on here because most cannot think outside the box for a moment.Embarassed


No problem :), was a silly attempt to lift the burden of the downtime a little from my side Laughing

midspan
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:38:00 - [32]
 

WOW smagine that!!!!! Shocked The server came back up and I can PROBE AGAIN! ;)

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.02 22:09:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Is it so many trolls in here , or is this some kind of mass panic or so many new NOOB explorers that now want to hack and anlyze everything in sight becuase they didnt bothered to train a skill before , and CCP now gave them instantgratification .


Nope, I checked it before the shutdown and the sig strength of sites, particularly w-holes, has been reduced, probably halved maybe even to a quarter. Which I think would have been a good thing, incidentally. Smile

According to reports post-shutdown it seems everything is back as it was (unfortunately). I'll check that.

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Oh space wanderer if you are an author of this spreed**** with scanning strengts , thank i benefit from it greatly. God job.


Actually the spreadsheet has been written by Miss Moonwich while we were trying to derive the formula during apoc beta.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.12.02 23:00:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 02/12/2009 23:00:19

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 00:13:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/12/2009 00:19:03
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/12/2009 00:17:27

Ok, tests done. Apparently (it's not like i took a signficant sample, I just probed a dozen systems) there has been a reduction across the board of the signature strengths of many sites, which is confirmed even after the emergency shutdown of today. However it has been a couple of months since I have been probing intesively, so as far as I know it might have been changed in a previous patch.

Anyway, by tests done on ship scanning I am pretty sure that the scan strength formula stays the same, but on the whole it seems that sites have had their signature sizes halved. That seems to be true also for wormholes, although it is not that easy to be sure since in kspace they have many different signature strengths. It does not seem to be true for gravimetric sites though, which seem to stay at the same values.

It is important to note that those results are the same both pre and post today's emergency patch, but are taken from k-space. If I had to venture another guess, I might assume that the scan strength reduction took originally place also in w-space, leaving a lot of people stranded in w-space, so they reversed the changes only for w-holes in w-space (which I couldn't check). That would explain why people in w-space reported "I can scan again" after the shutdown.

As a personal note, I think that on the whole this change is very good. The easy sites, and probably many w-holes, can still be found easily by anything, but the percentage of sites that can be found only by decent skills and equipment is now significantly higher than 0.1%.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2009.12.03 00:19:00 - [36]
 

I'd have to agree. It didn't take much to be able to find 95% of the sites, you could probe most anything with mediocre skills. Now it makes getting the skills to V much more worth it.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 00:37:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/12/2009 10:13:19
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/12/2009 09:18:20
Some additional information: I run some quick calculations and, if I gathered correct information (unlikely, I should be sleeping instead of wasting time with a game Smile), it seems now that base 3 sites cannot be found by common ships anymore unless you are at full skills and with a ship crammed with good equipment (rigs, sisters stuff, rangefinding at 5, or in alternative to one of those things some implants). And even in that condition it is a very borderline situation, so unless you know what you are doing your probes will hover around 98% sig strength.

EDIT: it seems I misplaced a factor 2 somewhere, so everything I wrote above about base 3 must be applied to base 4s instead. Base 3 seem still easy to find.

Gnarouh
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2009.12.03 08:35:00 - [38]
 

in K-space, i had no probing problems pre-emergency patch.
non cov-op with sister scan probe launcher and sister probes.
No rigs, no implants.

Incidently i like this change of making it harder alot, as im nearly 5/5/5/5 :D Wieeee. only have one 5 togo :)

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:14:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/12/2009 09:20:19
Originally by: Space Wanderer

if I gathered correct information (unlikely, I should be sleeping instead of wasting time with a game Smile),


I knew I should have slept. I double checked my calculations this morning and I realized I misplaced a factor 2 along the line... Sad This means that:

Originally by: Space Wanderer
sites cannot be found by common ships anymore unless you are at full skills and with a ship crammed with good equipment (rigs, sisters stuff, rangefinding at 5, or in alternative to one of those things some implants). And even in that condition it is a very borderline situation, so unless you know what you are doing your probes will hover around 98% sig strength.


All this applies to base 4 instead of base 3. I still gathered the feeling that the average site signatures have been slashed, but apparently they were originally so out of proportion that even slashing them makes them fairly easy to find. Now that I think of it, I used to find most of sites just using combat probes...

Bottom line is that if you know what you are doing (which admittedly many people don't Smile) you seem to be able to access all the sites without even needing an astrometrics frigate, nor rangefinding at 5 (if you use implants). Confused

Still need to check sigs in wholes, though.

If anybody has further data (my information about signature size of sites are two-months-old memories) or different calculation results, please let me know.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:25:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 03/12/2009 09:27:03


Considering I could quickly scan most sites without a ship with bonuses , sisters launcher or rigs with average skills and combat probes its a good change if it stays.

I just tried one and it was a Grav site so its not a good guide. It did seem a lot harder than normal though but that may have been coincidence.

It would be logical for them to do this. The skill changes encourage more players to try scanning but the increase in difficulty means the items from sites will not be over farmed.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 09:50:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
that may have been coincidence.


It probably is. From my scant tests the grav sites signatures seem to not have changed. You probably bumped into one of the hardest-to-find grav sites, which have always been... well, hard to find. :-)

Shearkhan
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:06:00 - [42]
 

Some great insights here from people more in the know than myself and i thank you all for the replies.

Looks like ima have to buff my scanning skills which i planned on anyway. I wasn't complaining about not been able to find the sites, i also think they should be a lot harder to find too. Even if that means i personally don't find as many sites so easily that's no hassle.

Would be nice to get some sort of official confirmation but i guess that's eve for yah, sussing it out for ourselves.

It'll be very interesting to see how this develops as im not a very tech minded guy with math,spreadsheets and formulas but im always willing to learn something new.

Thanks again peeps.


Varg Tepes
Caldari
PURgE Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:24:00 - [43]
 

hehe... I took the "exploration-class" yesterday, and enterd my Anathema ready to bouldly go where some has gone before.. Cool
At first it looked easy, scanned down a Magnet.. and a Ladar within 5-10 minutes (witch is fast for me since i use most of that time to move drones and get the cloack back on).. Those sites gave me "loot" worth aprox 20m so ofc i went dribbling and almost smelled a Machariel in the future.

Then.. i found a sig... closing in...found 2 sigs....closing in...found 1 sig yellow....closing in...one sig yellow... closing in.... yellow... etc etc
I never got the sig over 60% even if i had 4 probes on top of the site.. I gave up, left the system and came back in... same ****!

So i thinks its a bug... Not because i couldnt find it (im not a probe-god), but because the way it all went down.. goes frome 1 to 2 sigs... percentage goes down when i close in... 4 probes almost on top of sig and still not more than 60%... Neutral

If i had a camera on my probes, i would have seen the damn place myself.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:33:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Space Wanderer
All this applies to base 4 instead of base 3. I still gathered the feeling that the average site signatures have been slashed, but apparently they were originally so out of proportion that even slashing them makes them fairly easy to find. Now that I think of it, I used to find most of sites just using combat probes...


If this is true, I shall rejoice and sing praises!

For even one small step in the right direction (making scanning more difficut) was certainly unexpected, but highly welcome.

Now go on CCP, take the next step, make wormholes also more difficult to find. Be brave. You know you want to Wink.

And maybe slash sig strenghts yet another notch for everything too. If not immediately then next mini-patch.

Hurrah!

Loxatl Deathsquad
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:38:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Loxatl Deathsquad on 03/12/2009 10:42:15

Originally by: Locke DieDrake
You guys do realize it takes more than 4 probes sometimes? Those really pesky signatures need 6 to pin down.
No they dont.

Ive scanned every type of plex arround from Radar, to Mag to Ladar, 10/10, 8/10 etc and never needed more than 4 probes.
My skills are all 5 though and i use a rigged buzzard. And usually i can scan them in under 1-2 min, even the hardest sites.

Though i haven't tried since the new patch

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:39:00 - [46]
 

I did some scanning yesterday and didn't have any problems at all locating sites with the usual 4 probes. The probes in my Buzzard are still showing 125 strenght and the probes in the Hawk are at 69 as before as well.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:43:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Varg Tepes
So i thinks its a bug...


No, it's not. Scanning works in this way. Regardless of any player skill, either you have enough scan strength to find a site or you don't. Which means: equipment/skills. Now, some sites are very easy to find (you can find them with very low scan strength), others are harder (you need much more scan strength).

You probably bumped into a base 3 or 4, and you complain that with your skills taken up yesterday you can't find it?

O tempora, o mores...

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 10:51:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
I did some scanning yesterday and didn't have any problems at all locating sites with the usual 4 probes. The probes in my Buzzard are still showing 125 strenght and the probes in the Hawk are at 69 as before as well.


Anybody using a covop with core probes, even without rigs or stuff, won't even notice those changes, except for maybe an average of 30 secs more to find hard sites. Your hawk though is likely to not be able to find base 4s, unless you do something to raise that scan str.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.03 11:30:00 - [49]
 

Sounds like ccp adjusted the signature strength amount on some of the sites making them harder to find ( lower sig strength) this is a stealth nerf as it was NOT INCLUDED in the patch notes suggest anyone having issues posts on the dominions issues and feedback threads ccp has setup

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2009.12.03 12:28:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
Sounds like ccp adjusted the signature strength amount on some of the sites making them harder to find ( lower sig strength) this is a stealth nerf as it was NOT INCLUDED in the patch notes suggest anyone having issues posts on the dominions issues and feedback threads ccp has setup
You understand that, if true, it's not a nerf right? It's a buff to high skilled players, and been long overdue. With the lowering of access skill req's it also makes a lot of sense.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 13:20:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
Sounds like ccp adjusted the signature strength amount on some of the sites making them harder to find ( lower sig strength)


DISCLAIMER: I am not SURE about that, it's just a feeling. I have been out of the loop for too long and am relying too much on month-old memories. If some of those players who collected the original sig sizes for base 4 sites might give me the original sizes of base 4s I might be more precise, but I don't see them around.

What I am sure however, is what I have written above. Normal ships CAN find base 4s, but ONLY if they are outfitted/skilled/implanted quite a lot, and even that requires player skill from the prober.

Kva Plexcha
Gallente
Doing You Right
Posted - 2009.12.03 14:33:00 - [52]
 

I am currently scanning in 0.0 and have not noticed any discernable difference between strengths, pre and post Dominion.

I use a Arazu, Sisters gear, 2 x grav cap I, and 6% scan deviation and strength implants.

Skills are Astro, Pinpointing, Rangefinding at 4 and Aquisition at 3

Find all sites in game with 4 probes only.
Base Scan probe sensor strength of Sisters Core Probe in launcher, via fitting screen is 82.


I guess I will pay closer attention to the % to see if there is any deviation from what was previously, but so far, the 8/10 and a 9/10 equivalent plex has been pretty much the same degree of difficulty as before, with the same %'s. And all other sites are coming in at the same %'s. And I can scan down (and have) the 10/10 and equivalent sites with ease.

The only thing I can suggest is restarting your comp possibly, but beyond that I'm not sure. IMO if the Arazu (or other Force Recon Ships) had a astrometric bonus, they would be the perfect T2 cruiser class covert ops ship.

Also, scanning is pretty much my main way to play EVE, so I am doing this constantly, and should be able to notice a difference.

AlmightyLordOf Jita
Caldari
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:08:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ashmira Wintereyes
Would be nice actually to see that probing stuff is becomming more skill dependant again tbh, just buy them skills and train up, else do something else and leave exploration to the explorers ;)


Well said my friend o/

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:34:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Kva Plexcha
I am currently scanning in 0.0 and have not noticed any discernable difference between strengths, pre and post Dominion.


How do you manage to notice the differences? Can you give me some numbers? I got the impression that something has changed because I can't see anymore the 2.xx intensities on my DSP at max range, but only half of that (1.06 max). [Once depured of my bonuses that meant a max site signature of 40. The 1.06 that I observe now means half of that, 20.] Also it should be noted that currently I am in highsec, so I checked there. Things might be different in lowsec or 0.0.

Originally by: Kva Plexcha
I use a Arazu, Sisters gear, 2 x grav cap I, and 6% scan deviation and strength implants.

Skills are Astro, Pinpointing, Rangefinding at 4 and Aquisition at 3


Yes, this setup is one of the setups capable (barely) to scan down base 4s post-Dominion with a non-bonused ship (as I said I am not really sure about pre-Dom). Don't know about 8/10 and 10/10 as I don't remember their base sigs, but I wouldn't be surprised if their sig str were the same as base 4s. Also, even if changes HAVE happened, I doubt that would have affected difficult stuff like high-end complexes.

Just curious, why do you use the arazu to scan around? I can understand fitting a combat ship with a probe to be able to find a site and run it immediately, but if you elect to use a cloaking ship that must be swapped, why not using a covop which allows you the same scan speed with a much less investment? Or do you run the sites with the arazu? Smile

Originally by: Kva Plexcha
Also, scanning is pretty much my main way to play EVE, so I am doing this constantly, and should be able to notice a difference.


Unless you know well the base site signatures and perform a preliminary scan with DSPs, you might as well not notice changes. Your setup allows you to scan everything anyway.

Shearkhan
Posted - 2009.12.03 15:43:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Shearkhan on 03/12/2009 15:43:46
Well somethings a miss i have no doubt now.

Hopped into my covops ( cheetah ) have a probe strength of 81 with rigs no implants.

Its a lot harder to find sites in hisec than before now that im sure of and its not just a bad luck run. So fior example, i find a mag site scan it down in my covops which seemed to take twice as long as it usually does. I get to the mag site whack on the analyzer and out of 5 cans 2 have stuff in them. Not unusual, but the cans that did have things in them were usually attributed to salvageing.... ie 1 charred MS and 6 damaged artificals .. eh?

Does the "rebalancing" of loot mean a complete nerf for hisec ( 0.5 ) drops? im beginning to think so... i will report back once ive done a few more sites. Even the encounter sites which usually had low level faction ships ( the ships not the sites )seem to have gone?

Kva Plexcha
Gallente
Doing You Right
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:05:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Kva Plexcha on 03/12/2009 16:06:08
@ Space ...

good questions ..

First, I use an Arazu in 0.0 because I can fit salvagers ( and not on the Helios ) and codebreakers and analyzers, still have lots of cap, and can warped cloak. I also have great resistances to the rats in the plex so can draw a bit of aggro while my gank ship kills the plexes.

Second ... pre Dom a hit on a 8/10 with a 32 au range core probe at roughly 3 au away would return a .76% roughly - this same plex has roughly the same % post Dom, as do most other ones. This is what I am baseing my observations on.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2009.12.03 16:42:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Kva Plexcha
while my gank ship kills the plexes.


Ah ok, I was missing the presence of another account. Smile

Originally by: Kva Plexcha
Second ... pre Dom a hit on a 8/10 with a 32 au range core probe at roughly 3 au away would return a .76% roughly - this same plex has roughly the same % post Dom, as do most other ones.


Mmmh... ok, this is about the same strength of a base 3 site, now. I assume that a 10/10 has about half that value? That would make it as hard to find as a base 4. If it is so, it is possible that they merely aligned the professional site signatures to those of the combat plexes.

Kva Plexcha
Gallente
Doing You Right
Posted - 2009.12.03 19:02:00 - [58]
 


On phone, but yeah Space the 10/10 comes in at .38 or so. Basically, all the plexes I run in 0.0 couldn't be run with a cov cops and a scan launcher and mods gimp the dps on a combat ship enough to affect the ability to finish a 8/10 solo.

I am ninja'ng these plexes in hostile space so logistics and versatility plays a part in my ship selection and load out.
My gank ship is actually a Deimos, and this plus the Arazu runs every site except the 10/10 without help.

And I am a big fan of you and your well written exploration guides.

:)

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2009.12.03 20:03:00 - [59]
 

Making it more difficult to scan down sites would not be a nerf. In my opinion, it would be undoing, or correcting, an earlier nerf.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.12.03 22:13:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Shearkhan

Its a lot harder to find sites in hisec than before now that im sure of and its not just a bad luck run. So fior example, i find a mag site scan it down in my covops which seemed to take twice as long as it usually does. I get to the mag site whack on the analyzer and out of 5 cans 2 have stuff in them. Not unusual, but the cans that did have things in them were usually attributed to salvageing.... ie 1 charred MS and 6 damaged artificals .. eh?


Magnetometric site cans always dropped salvage stuff (rarely a skill book iirc) regardless of whether you had to open them with a salvager or an analyzer.


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