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SomebodyKickedMyDog
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:10:00 - [1]
 

is pvp considered a career? i thought it was, but now i question that since it would be the only career that actually costs money rather than making the player money. i know it is possible to make money off of it, but it's not easy.

the militia is obviously considered a career, but even in that the pay is very little, in the form of lp, and doesn't cover the cost of losing ships/mods.

i guess it's just a curiosity, since eve seems to be very pvp oriented, but it's not viable as a source of making income -- an objective which many people seem to be very concerned with.

p.s. i know someone will bring up the fact that technically pvp is any activity where two or more people compete, but it's pretty much come to take on the meaning player vs player combat so that's how i'm using it.

Korvix Valthonis
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:18:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Korvix Valthonis on 30/11/2009 05:18:31
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog

the militia is obviously considered a career, but even in that the pay is very little, in the form of lp,


The only thing that beats running FW Missions in ISK gain is Moon Mining / Trading (production).

SO really don't know where you get that they "pay very little".

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:21:00 - [3]
 

not much isk in the actual PVP itself, but sitting around to loot wrecks can be very lucrative.

of course, you have to 'live' long enough to do this.

Nicholas Barker
Deez Nuts.
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:23:00 - [4]
 

I think in an ideal world,
You'd have pvpers defending a very efficiently ran mining/industrial base who would get their ships paid for to defend them with a possible bonus should they not get blown up. Then on top of that, they get to grab loot from wrecks.

I think if dominion works how they want (reduce alliance influence area size), and making 0.0 able to hold more people, you'll see more people going into 0.0 who need defending. Of course this will require people to actively promote people coming to live in their space and use their station services and come under the cover of their defensive perimeters for a small charge.

Then you might start seeing pure pvp corps appearing again, as the focus of running an efficient industrial background could be shifted back into the miners and such who could give their watchmen build cost items.
Around that time you could also have the possibility of seeing non-pvp orientated corps buying space from pvpers, and then paying for pvpers to come live in their space for the purpose of defence, similar to ISS but with the defence force being contractors.

This then also creates more contractors/mercs, making pvp a viable way of making cash.

This also sounds a lot more interesting than the current way things are.

Of course you're still going to see frugal minded pvp corp leaders who'll try to do this themselves, but there's still people who can't be bothered with that who run corps, who may well find an empire hugging +10xbillionaire and his corp who might like to lighten his wallet for a few systems.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:29:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Lui Kai on 30/11/2009 05:31:07
Originally by: Nicholas Barker
I think in an ideal world,
You'd have pvpers defending a very efficiently ran mining/industrial base who would get their ships paid for to defend them...


For this to work, industrialists would have to have a market OTHER than the friendlies defending them, or they'd never make any money. In a NBSI world, that doesn't happen much.

And, even ignoring that, with jumpbridges/jumpfreights, the average medium/large sized alliance can be supplied by 2, maybe 3 dedicated people - which means it will always remain a role religated to alts of trusted pvp pilots.

Edit to append:
It's been proven too many times - ISS, ASCN, and their ilk - if an alliance diverts itself towards industry, away from combat, it fails. There's too many highsec plebs too willing to do industry too cheaply for it to be worthwhile for a 0.0 alliance to try building an "industrial backbone."

There's less risk, cost, and time involved in just importing when possible, and building on an alt when not.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
is pvp considered a career? i thought it was, but now i question that since it would be the only career that actually costs money rather than making the player money. i know it is possible to make money off of it, but it's not easy.

the militia is obviously considered a career, but even in that the pay is very little, in the form of lp, and doesn't cover the cost of losing ships/mods.

i guess it's just a curiosity, since eve seems to be very pvp oriented, but it's not viable as a source of making income -- an objective which many people seem to be very concerned with.

p.s. i know someone will bring up the fact that technically pvp is any activity where two or more people compete, but it's pretty much come to take on the meaning player vs player combat so that's how i'm using it.


It's always been a career. The only problem is that 99% if all Eve players suck too much to engage in PVP and still make a profit. A profitable PVP career is called piracy. Pirates are the smallest group of players in all of Eve. Rightly so, as only the most elite and skillful can maintain a high enough success rate to turn a profit while engaging in PVP.

It doesn't COST MONEY to PVP for everyone. Only for you.

SomebodyKickedMyDog
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:31:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Korvix Valthonis
Edited by: Korvix Valthonis on 30/11/2009 05:18:31
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog

the militia is obviously considered a career, but even in that the pay is very little, in the form of lp,


The only thing that beats running FW Missions in ISK gain is Moon Mining / Trading (production).

SO really don't know where you get that they "pay very little".


missions isn't pvp. true, it's part of fw, but my main point was making money pvp'ing.

it's weird that miners don't have to do something else so they can mine, missioners don't have to do something else so they can mission, traders don't have to do something else so they can trade, and so on. but this is the case for pvpers. but i guess it just is what it is; i don't want to start whining.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:46:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
it's weird that miners don't have to do something else so they can mine, missioners don't have to do something else so they can mission, traders don't have to do something else so they can trade, and so on. but this is the case for pvpers.


ISK is the grind, in Eve. All the other things you mentioned are part of the isk grind - they don't have to grind isk to do it because doing it is grinding isk.

The only way to change this would be to remove the isk grind - which would remove the consequences to failure, and ultimately: the entire point of the game.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:58:00 - [9]
 

Isk is grind? Only if you make it into that. There's plenty of ways to make isk that doesn't require grinding, trading is one of them. Besides, isk isn't a goal at all.

From a pvp point of view; we roam in high sec harassing/killing miners and missionrunners, we steal their ore and attack them if they react, we wardec them and make them pay a fee for us to go away. We're essentially highwaymen and we "tax" others living off of loot and ransoms. Only works with smaller groups though.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:23:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Marko Riva
Isk is grind? Only if you make it into that. There's plenty of ways to make isk that doesn't require grinding, trading is one of them. Besides, isk isn't a goal at all.


You just contradicted yourself. ISK is "the grind" not because it's hard, at all, to make - but because it's not a goal at all. It's the enabling factor for most other goals.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:30:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Marko Riva on 30/11/2009 06:31:15
No, you're wrong. It's only a grind because that's what people know, that's what people tell you and because it requires the least amount of brainpower. I don't grind for my isk, never did. I never went out to put in TIME to make money.

I might put in a tiny bit of brains for 5 minutes a day in order to do some trades that make great cash but that's not grinding. I make cash while doing stuff I find fun to do and in the end it turns out I make more than I lost, not grinding either. I don't care about cash, yet I have enough.

Grinding is a CHOICE, the easiest choice which requires the least brain effort.


Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:39:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Marko Riva
Making ISK is easy, not a grind.


You're using a different definition of "grind" than the one I intended. I was probably unclear.

By saying "ISK is the grind in Eve" I'm not saying isk is difficult, time consuming, or tricky to make. I've stepped off the isk tredmill entirely lately, and never really "worked" at it.

What I intended was to say that ISK is the only thing in eve that deliminates progress between two people, all other factors equalized. It's the closest thing eve has to "xp" that other games use. Have two braincells? A decent understanding of the game? Log in fairly regularly? You probably have a fair bit of isk, and never need to worry about it. Fail a lot, suck, and be lazy? You're probably always hurting for isk.

In short, isk is the thing that enables individuals to progress towards most goals. It's not a goal in and of itself, and thus is "the grind" - something done to enable a goal, not the goal itself.




SomebodyKickedMyDog
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:44:00 - [13]
 

i think you guys may be talking about two different sets of people. marko is talking about pvp'ers who 'grind isk' because they need the income to sustain their pvp. lui is talking about mission runners, miners, and others who do it not to grind isk, but because that's the part of the game they enjoy. so to them, it's not grinding isk; it's doing what they want. if i'm right, there may be a disconnect in the conversation.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
i think you guys may be talking about two different sets of people. marko is talking about pvp'ers who 'grind isk' because they need the income to sustain their pvp. lui is talking about mission runners, miners, and others who do it not to grind isk, but because that's the part of the game they enjoy. so to them, it's not grinding isk; it's doing what they want. if i'm right, there may be a disconnect in the conversation.


You're right that there's a disconnect, but entirely wrong on what he or I meant. It was an accidental semantics argument.

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:50:00 - [15]
 

INVENTION was a double edged sword.

It lowered the cost of every T2 item in the game, and at the same time it killed off PVP as a lucrative way to make ISK.

For example. Back when there were only 2-3 guys making Invulnerability Field II's, they had the price set at around 30 million ISK per module. Even most base T2 items that only cost around 500,000 ISK these days used to cost 2-10 million ISK each.

It was expensive to fit a ship and expensive to lose one, but if you were a good and wise PVP'er (scouting, using alts, using spies in the corporations you targeted most), then you could make 1-2 hundred million per day just looting the wrecks of those you killed. That was just an average day.

These days, only the sadistic bastards who enjoy killing just for the sake of alleviating a fool from his ship, are the only ones left doing it... this includes me. Twisted Evil

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 07:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai
You're using a different definition of "grind" than the one I intended. I was probably unclear.

By saying "ISK is the grind in Eve" I'm not saying isk is difficult, time consuming, or tricky to make. I've stepped off the isk tredmill entirely lately, and never really "worked" at it.

What I intended was to say that ISK is the only thing in eve that deliminates progress between two people, all other factors equalized. It's the closest thing eve has to "xp" that other games use. Have two braincells? A decent understanding of the game? Log in fairly regularly? You probably have a fair bit of isk, and never need to worry about it. Fail a lot, suck, and be lazy? You're probably always hurting for isk.

In short, isk is the thing that enables individuals to progress towards most goals. It's not a goal in and of itself, and thus is "the grind" - something done to enable a goal, not the goal itself.




You got it all wrong then. Grinding in and of it self means doing repetitive tasks that mostly take up a lot of time. Mining can be grinding, running a mission isn't grinding, running 5-10+ a day IS. Trading can be grinding. It's the grind of doing things over and over and it has nothing to do with it's purpose.

Quote:
What I intended was to say that ISK is the only thing in eve that deliminates progress between two people, all other factors equalized.


You MUST be joking, Isk determins the difference between players? I'm sorry but that's simply not true, it might/will be true for people who see isk as their goal but to others who don't, it doesn't. I'll agree on the fact that for a lot of people this might be the case because they need some form of goal and money seems to be an easy/good one. but I guess that points back to the "grinding is easy, people are used to it and it require no braincells".

The whole grind/treadmill thing is what we're being spoonfed by MMO makers because it's the easiest type of goals to make a game for and you can keep your customers addicted by introducing new grinds (which are exactly the same as the old grinds).


EVE only has grind if you want it to.

Mskpath3
Posted - 2009.11.30 08:49:00 - [17]
 

Plex on T/H, pvp the rest of the week? Pretty simple. You only need a couple A-type's a week to keep you in ships -and- keep your wallet growing at a brisk rate.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.11.30 09:13:00 - [18]
 

i seem to think it is since i kill people for money XD

Wesfahrn
WESCORP 2.0
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:09:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Wesfahrn on 30/11/2009 10:21:52
Edited by: Wesfahrn on 30/11/2009 10:20:59
Edited by: Wesfahrn on 30/11/2009 10:19:27
Originally by: Lui Kai
The only way to change this would be to remove the isk grind - which would remove the consequences to failure, and ultimately: the entire point of the game.


Your definition of grind still remains vague. Lets say for sake of argument that it means, an easy, but repetitive way of making ISK. Then your argument would not be true.
One could turn grind, or the ISK making into the main game mechanic as well, as some players have done on their own. Scamming and trading is a good example.
If you remove missions and belt ratting which can be considered THE GRIND, im not at all sure the point of the game - which is this case means dire consequences, or high risk -> high reward - is lost, in fact i believe the opposite is the case.

Basically ISK harder to get/less grinding aspects = More challenging gameplay for like you said, the ISK is mainly a means to an end in game, much like PVP should be :)

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: murder one

It's always been a career. The only problem is that 99% if all Eve players suck too much to engage in PVP and still make a profit. A profitable PVP career is called piracy. Pirates are the smallest group of players in all of Eve. Rightly so, as only the most elite and skillful can maintain a high enough success rate to turn a profit while engaging in PVP.

It doesn't COST MONEY to PVP for everyone. Only for you.


Pretty simply laid out and dead accurate.

I'm STILL flying ships and have ISK in the bank from being an outlaw...and its been close to a year since actually pirating actively Laughing.




RabbidFerret
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.11.30 14:31:00 - [21]
 

Correct that to *Skilled pirates are the smallest section of eve players*. The pirates that turn a profit are skilled, yes, but there are so many flashy reds that are as dumb as a brick and just worth a few laughs.

Kazang
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2009.11.30 14:45:00 - [22]
 

I make most of my money from pvp, which gets funnelled into investments that make more money. To make money purely from pvp was my original goal but I have given up on that, its not that its not lucrative enough, as it can be very lucrative. One decent faction drop can fund my pvp for months. But that deliberately ignoring other parts of the game such as trading, moon mining and some of the more fun aspects of pve like wormhole plexes is not a good way to play.

But in short yes it's very possible to pvp as a career, in RP terms I just consider myself of a freelancer rather than a "pvper" as a career path but pvp is what I spend most of my time doing.

Psiri
Posted - 2009.11.30 14:53:00 - [23]
 

If you're good at the game and don't risk much then it's not that hard to turn a small profit.

It's very easy however to be set back alot of isk if you put things like T2 cruisers and HACs on the table.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.11.30 16:33:00 - [24]
 

I pvp, I don't ransom, I don't care about the loot/salvage, I leave it to my corpmates.

I see pvp as a ISK->FUN trade.

And oh yeah, I'm having a lot of fun.

How do I get my isk? I generate enough isk with my alt to play the game for free and fly any ship I want. I only spend 30 minutes a day on my alt.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:00:00 - [25]
 

Using the term 'PvP' is too vague. It encapsulates several areas of the game - in fact most of the game if you think about it: trade is competitive, likewise industry, mining, etc.

As other players have posted, FW is a decent PvP-orientated form of income.

Piracy/ransoming is another form of PvP that can generate good income but be wary that you will suffer losses while you are learning and you may never make it if you suck.

Warring is kind of good if you can ransom or pop enough hi-value ships.

Personally, I rat/mission for ISK and pirate/pvp/war for fun :) And I suck at 'PvP' but I have fun, which is what matters, eh? Very Happy

Tiny Tove
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:20:00 - [26]
 

Hmmm.
The old nutshell.

Look... it's a load of tosh. You get a lot of people tell you that they pay for PvP with PvP, and you know what, some of them won't be lying. But the vast majority will be, because you can't make yourself look "hard" by saying "I supplement my income by being an industrial haulage contractor"

Why you think so many "hardcore" "pvp" corps recruit with lines like "must be self sufficient"?
ner... because they know that they isn't no profit in what they do, how they do it, and they don't want you being propped up by their hidden ISK fountains.

Here's a quick and incomplete list of the things people fund PvP with.

1. HiSec Mining alts. Look.... I'm a dirty hisec can flipping tard right, and you should see how many of these "hardcore" and "Adapt or Die!" fraternity dingbats cry like massive babies and "threaten" you with the their "hardcore" main. This one is very common.

2. Slave corps.
This is my personal anti favourite. I love them, because I love the idea of exploiting a few hundred absolute idiots who have absolutely no clue where the ISK, or even that there should actually be some ISK somewhere. Again... they're usually hisec, and they're pretty easy to spot. Just look for 200 man corps recruiting absolutely everybody in your local area.

3. Scamming alts (Including banks lol)

4. Trading alts.

5. PvP Alts. This is an odd one, people with very rich mains who want to do some pvp but don't want the reputation for what it is they want to do associating with their mains, for whatever reason.

6. "Mercenary" corporations? Maybe you don't like the idea of having to find your own targets, maybe you just can't face going into a battle without having your losses prepaid? Well then, start a mercenary organisation. It's not as hard as you'd imagine, as success is just a few sweet lies different from failure, and anybody hiring you is obviously a shooting loser so they're not going to not pay are they? Plus if they don't pay, you get to ridicule them on the forum as well as blow them up. Because everybody loves mecenary Role Playing ever since Veto did it.

There are other ways, and really, self funding PvP isn't really one of them as the ISK flow is too erratic. Too little ISK income one month, and too much the next, etc...

But the lines get all blurry when you start fudging around personal versus corp assets, you don't think those Titan alts, or their mains, ever actually sat around digging through dirt to pay those billions do you?
Because they didn't.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:29:00 - [27]
 

1. PvP is not a career in EvE, its a leisure activity. Of course, a happy few have made their career of it, but for most PvP costs isk.

2. Defending is not a worthwhile career in EVE. 95% of the time defenders have nothing to do, because no hostiles appear. 3% of the time so many hostiles appear that defending is pointless and retreat is the only option, 1% of the time the industrials are still ganked but the defenders win the fight, 1% of the time the defenders win without the industrials dying. This means that defense of industrials is primarily a non-activity.

If only rats would be more attracted by industrials mining in belts that just a random spawn valid for everyone, that you would have nice synergy. More mining activity = more and bigger rat spawns, ideal to get miners and fighters together.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 17:33:00 - [28]
 

I have no expenses (I lose a rifter once in a while) and on a decent night I destroy 500+ mil and get some loot from that, if lucky I get some decent ransoms and if really lucky I hit the jackpot and grab me a faction (fitted) BS. Is that with full blown uber pvp while being a leet -10 and attacking ubah pvpers? No, but it's still pvp, I enjoy doing it and I'm making more than I'm losing.

The issue really is that a lot of people somehow need to use very expensive or fancy ships because that makes it better or something. Or they do things that makes them lose ships a lot, either because they're stupid or because they don't care, although stating you don't care is mostly covering up the stupid part. I don't and because of that IF I lose a ship it'll be nothing special meaning that I don't need a massive income to support my EVE habits which in turn means that when I log on I can do whatever I want. If you compare my accounts and time invested versus my wealth then I'm sure I'm doing poorly compared to people who make cash other ways and/or make it into a goal. But as long as I'm making more than I'm losing, I don't CARE how much I make.


 

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