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El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 04:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 08:42:43
With the new patch, bubbles will not disturb the warp of a nullified t3 cruiser any longer, i.e. forcing them to re-initiate warp.

This means, with a nullifier, nano-fit (good inertia) and possibly 1-2 warp core stabilizers, it will be impossible to stop such a ship, unless maybe, just maybe, you have a prepared 50 man gate camp with ultra fast lockers and a lucky warp-in spawn point. And I wouldn't even bet on that.

now, that's not a good thing. no ship should be invulnerable in the game. What will happen is, we will get many noobs flying all over 0.0 smacking in local how uber they are. Important loot transports will be easy through hostile territory. The covert ops and recon ships will be outdated as scout and spy vessels.

Totally out of balance in my opinion.

Or is this a grand strategy of CCP to mix and shuffle the 0.0 population?


Trader Jjenna
Posted - 2009.11.30 04:24:00 - [2]
 

hmm . . . .never thought of puttting a wcs on a pvp ship. Intersting lol.

Arkeladin
Posted - 2009.11.30 04:25:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: El Kaposo
With the new patch, bubbles will not disturb the warp of a nullified t3 cruiser any longer, i.e. forcing them to re-initiate warp.

This means, with a nullifier, nano-fit (good inertia) and possibly 1-2 warp core stabilizers, it will be impossible to stop such a ship, unless maybe, just maybe, you have a prepared 50 man gate camp with ultra fast lockers and a lucky warp-in spawn point. And I wouldn't even bet on that.

now, that's not a good thing. no ship should be invulnerable in the game. What will happen is, we will get many noobs flying all over 0.0 smacking in local how uber they are. Important loot transports will be easy through hostile territory. The covert ops and recon ships will be outdated as scout and spy vessels.

Totally out of balance in my opinion.

Or is this a grand strategy of CCP to mix and shuffle the 0.0 population?




+1 for sucking me into posting in this whine thread.

-5 for you not being able to read.

The Interdiction Nullifier subsystems across all T3 ships are vulnerable to scrams, disruptors, and focused interdiction scripts

They may not be bubble-able by REMOTE bubbles, but oh yes they CAN be stopped - 1-2 warp stabs isn't going to help them, any more than it would help any other ship. You just can't snatch them in easymode anymore.

Gonna whine much more?

Removal Tool
Unleet Industries LLC
Posted - 2009.11.30 04:47:00 - [4]
 

Did you just suggest that noobs are going to be flying T3 ships all over 0.0?

Yes, and everyone of them will be mocking El Kaposo. This will, however, be a boon to T3 production.

Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: El Kaposo
With the new patch, bubbles will not disturb the warp of a nullified t3 cruiser any longer, i.e. forcing them to re-initiate warp.

This means, with a nullifier, nano-fit (good inertia) and possibly 1-2 warp core stabilizers, it will be impossible to stop such a ship, unless maybe, just maybe, you have a prepared 50 man gate camp with ultra fast lockers and a lucky warp-in spawn point. And I wouldn't even bet on that.

now, that's not a good thing. no ship should be invulnerable in the game. What will happen is, we will get many noobs flying all over 0.0 smacking in local how uber they are. Important loot transports will be easy through hostile territory. The covert ops and recon ships will be outdated as scout and spy vessels.

Totally out of balance in my opinion.

Or is this a grand strategy of CCP to mix and shuffle the 0.0 population?




You're one of those 0.0 noobs that can't do a thing without a bubble aren't you? Cry some more.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:15:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 05:32:45
Originally by: Arkeladin
Originally by: El Kaposo
With the new patch, bubbles will not disturb the warp of a nullified t3 cruiser any longer, i.e. forcing them to re-initiate warp.

This means, with a nullifier, nano-fit (good inertia) and possibly 1-2 warp core stabilizers, it will be impossible to stop such a ship, unless maybe, just maybe, you have a prepared 50 man gate camp with ultra fast lockers and a lucky warp-in spawn point. And I wouldn't even bet on that.

now, that's not a good thing. no ship should be invulnerable in the game. What will happen is, we will get many noobs flying all over 0.0 smacking in local how uber they are. Important loot transports will be easy through hostile territory. The covert ops and recon ships will be outdated as scout and spy vessels.

Totally out of balance in my opinion.

Or is this a grand strategy of CCP to mix and shuffle the 0.0 population?




+1 for sucking me into posting in this whine thread.

-5 for you not being able to read.

The Interdiction Nullifier subsystems across all T3 ships are vulnerable to scrams, disruptors, and focused interdiction scripts

They may not be bubble-able by REMOTE bubbles, but oh yes they CAN be stopped - 1-2 warp stabs isn't going to help them, any more than it would help any other ship. You just can't snatch them in easymode anymore.

Gonna whine much more?



Oh, of course they are vulnerable to focused interdiction scripts or normal pointing. unfortunately you fail to understand that in order to apply those, the target has to be de-cloaked.
now, a t3 cruiser will jump into a system, cloak immediately and start warping. you will then have maybe 3-4 seconds to de-cloak it AND point it in a best case scenario. if you have any experience in pvp whatsoever you will notice that this is near to impossible.

murder one : i have seen you whining left and right over the forum. wtz, cloaky haulers. jumpfreighters. you have shed your tears on them all.
sad how you don't realize that t3 is the mother of all carebear boats now. maybe you should peek out of your little low sec decon sometime and look how things are in 0.0.

well, the best indicator for something being out of balance is, you see every jo and jane flying it. my bet is, we will see the nullified cloak t3 spreading like a plague now.
Also, please take note, how much less you will see nullified t3 ships appear on killboards from tomorrow.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:20:00 - [7]
 

Nice to see there are people who are still not aquianted with remote sensor boosted hics. Creationists around the globe rejoice.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:37:00 - [8]
 

What part of "immune" doesn't register in your head?

This change is just to fix a bug. Why don't you go back in time a few months and attempt to stop the introduction of the nullifier subsystem.

Dacryphile
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:37:00 - [9]
 

So you are complaining that CCP is fixing a bug?

You complain about the interdiction nullifier is now an uncounterable ship and how unfair that is when the nullifier is the only counter to interdiction spheres.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Removal Tool
everyone of them will be mocking El Kaposo.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 05:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 05:59:01
Originally by: Dacryphile
So you are complaining that CCP is fixing a bug?

You complain about the interdiction nullifier is now an uncounterable ship and how unfair that is when the nullifier is the only counter to interdiction spheres.


a nullifier isn't the only counter to an interdiction sphere. good scouting, speed and cov ops cloaks just do fine without throwing all balance out of the window.

yes, uncounterable is bad. and yes, maybe the complaints should go against the subsystem instead of the 'fix', now as it is brought forward. nullifiers have always provided warp scramble and pull mechanic immunity against bubbles. this has been working as intended since inception.

the 'fix' is closing the last possible way of catching a dumb pilot. smart ones have been immune since the introduction of this subsystem.

Originally by: Dristra
Originally by: Removal Tool
everyone of them will be mocking El Kaposo.



lol Laughing


Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:01:00 - [12]
 

I feel its worth pointing out that although the nullifier/cov-ops combination is pretty hard (and far from impossible) to catch, it isn't much other than a hugely expensive shuttle. Sure you can probably go anywhere you fancy. But can you do anything when you get there ? No.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:08:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 06:19:53
Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 06:18:31
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
I feel its worth pointing out that although the nullifier/cov-ops combination is pretty hard (and far from impossible) to catch, it isn't much other than a hugely expensive shuttle. Sure you can probably go anywhere you fancy. But can you do anything when you get there ? No.


a) a shuttle jumps into a bubbled system = dead
b) a shuttle warps to a pull bubble = dead

i doubt you can draw a comparison here.
how it is 'far from impossible' to catch? if you look at the align to warp time of a nanoed t3 cruiser and a realistic scenario, where you have to accelerate your ship towards a de-cloak attempt and then lock ?

what to do with it ?

what do covert ops ships and recons do right now, when they travel through hostile space and are not scouts or looking for some pvp ? they are mostly transporting some valuable carebear loots.

i am sure many of you remember the controversial introduction some patches ago, where one wasn't allowed to use mwd for a few seconds after jumping into and de-cloaking in a system. it was complained about and crushed under criticism, thus reversed immediately, but it clearly shows that people in ccp were intent to reduce 'getting away' possibilities in general or adding a counter to speed, as almost every quick ship can re-approach a gate and jump back.

in conclusion and again, uncounterable isn't really an aspect that should be part of a pvp game.

i am curious if i am going to see any nullified cloaked t3 cruisers on killboards in the time to come. i am happy, if i am proven wrong and people manage to catch on of them, at least once in a while.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:15:00 - [14]
 

Hint: try catching it outside of a gatecamp (where it will have to go if it wants to do anything besides smacktalk you in local). You do not have a god-given right to kill anything and everything that jumps into your bubble camp. Deal with it.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:22:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Hint: try catching it outside of a gatecamp (where it will have to go if it wants to do anything besides smacktalk you in local). You do not have a god-given right to kill anything and everything that jumps into your bubble camp. Deal with it.


did i say i want such a right? all i have advocated for is a chance to counter such a ship.

and no, if they are going to be used as transport ships, as i suspect and have already seen, there won't be possibilities away from gates.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:29:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: El Kaposo

sad how you don't realize that t3 is the mother of all carebear boats now. maybe you should peek out of your little low sec decon sometime and look how things are in 0.0.


Great idea. I suggest using a T3 ship to take this look into 0.0. Maybe smack in local a little while you're there?

In all seriousness though, it sounds like the complaint is over intel. A nullified cloaking T3 ship can't do much of anything but peek at stuff and type in fleet chat (hence the comparison to a shuttle)... which is probably enough to cause forum rage.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:38:00 - [17]
 

OP has the stupid. That is all really.

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Marko Riva
OP has the stupid. That is all really.


thanks for sharing.

looks like you don't have anything intelligent to say, so why don't you stay out and do a lvl 4 mission.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 06:50:00 - [19]
 

Look here bucko, first of all I don't run missions nor mine so that's your first mistake.

Secondly, you want a BUG to remain so you can kill some ships, claiming that it's impossible to do otherwise. We killed ships BEFORE there were bubbles, all it takes is effort.

Your whole OP is nothing but a "I WANT MY COOKIES!!!!" rant, no matter how much you try to reason it using the word 'balance', all you care about is the killmails. Nothing wrong with that as such but don't go ranting like in the OP then.

No one's buying your flimsy "balance" rant.


El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 07:09:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 07:19:17
@marko: if you'd paid attention, you would understand that its not about me that want to kill those ships.

i have been making a point about the concept as such. until it was called a bug it might as well have been a feature.

i am not in mood to make this a personal flame for flame fest, nor to respond to personal attacks.

but (unless you are an alt like me), from your total of 12 kills in empire a killboard search reveals, you hardly have the game experience to comment.

i do agree however that if ccp sees this as a bug, they should fix it. yet, they should rethink if the tools they have provided in terms of such ships are not too powerful, especially now.

feel free to experiment on the test server and come to your own conclusions, as if you can find a way - any way - now to have a chance against these vessels.




Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.11.30 07:25:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Marko Riva on 30/11/2009 07:26:37
Ofcourse it's not about you, that's why you're so interested in it, right?

If you have a balancing issue with the nullifier/cloak combo then state it as that and use proper reasoning, but saying that CCP shouldn't fix a known bug or that it's impossible to catch one then yes, it's a rant with no real worth.

On the experience part; If you didn't even KNOW the "bubble cancels warp" thing was a bug then you really have no place to talk about "experience" and point fingers when someone calls you on it. The bubble thing IS a bug and should/will be fixed. null/covert T3 ARE difficult to catch but it's certainly not impossible, all you need in an intie paying attention and a dictor with decently high scan res or (in case or a Stiletto) 1 intie.

So it's not impossible to catch them, just very difficult, which brings us back to my (and other's) first point; why should that be an issue, unless you want the km's?

El Kaposo
Amarr
Simtech Industrial Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.30 08:16:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 08:22:49
your theory sounds nice, in theory.

come back when you have successfully locked down one with your method and can talk out of experience. align and warp time window of a properly fit, inertia boosted t3 will not allow an interceptor to de-cloak it and lock in time. period.

let me put it in numbers :

-align time of an inertia stabbed t3 cruiser is about 3.8 seconds.
-average spawn point is about 15-20km from gate
-decent interceptor speed is around 5000+ m/s (consider acceleration and reaction time as well)

now, if you blob the gate with a lot of fast ships, sitting evenly spread around the spawn sphere of the gate, yes, there might be a small chance (see original post). is this a likely scenario we are going to see at all ? no.






Ion Bartzabel
Caldari
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.30 09:17:00 - [23]
 

The whole purpose of T3 with nullifier and covert ops cloak is what.. you guessed it, TO NOT get ganked by noobs camping gates.

Who in their right mind gimps their setups with using inertias or stabs on a t3 ship anyway? You wouldnt manage to kill anything with that.

T3 ships gets blown up everyday anyway. A proper bait gets them killed. adapt or die.

Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:04:00 - [24]
 

At the very minimum, nullifier sub wastes TWO lows (missing low + gimped agility), the cloaking sub wastes TWO offensive bonuses. If very expensive ship, deliberately gimped to such extent, still poses issue to the game ballance, maybe the issue actually lies with the overpowerdness and sledgehammer design of bubbles.

About time something tiny little was done. Still not enough.

Oh and it is nothing but bugfix you complain about.

Zayne Zacharias
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:55:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: El Kaposo
Edited by: El Kaposo on 30/11/2009 08:22:49
your theory sounds nice, in theory.

come back when you have successfully locked down one with your method and can talk out of experience.



So much for the flame war thing.

Point being, pilot of said T3 ship has paid 600mil ISK (current prices) for invulnerability against bubbles. I think it's fair s/he gets what they've paid for, instead of being doomed to a ship that doesn't actually do what it's advertised as doing? CCP will not abort game fixes on the basis that bubble-camping pilots are complaining.

Besides, a "properly fit, inertia boosted" T3 is SPECIFICALLY BUILT & FITTED to escape gatecamps.Therefore, it is essentially useless at anything else. Can you mission in a PVP ship? No, not really. Can you PVP in a mission ship? No, not really. And shall we look at the tradeoffs:

ALL covert ops T3s have rather useless damage outputs by design.
Legion & Proteus also have useless tanks, due to low slots devoted to inertial stabs.

Therefore, what can you do except for look in local, and send a few comms to corp and fleet? Just be grateful that T3s can't use Covert Cyno generators yet.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.30 11:20:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Removal Tool
Did you just suggest that noobs are going to be flying T3 ships all over 0.0?

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.30 11:23:00 - [27]
 

Why don't you whine about unprobeable T3 ships running plexs and whatnot instead? That seems more of a balance issue than a subsystem finally doing as it was originally intended to do from the outset. Why are you whining now about it?

PMolkenthin
TunDraGon
Posted - 2009.11.30 11:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Durzel
Why don't you whine about unprobeable T3 ships running plexs and whatnot instead? That seems more of a balance issue than a subsystem finally doing as it was originally intended to do from the outset. Why are you whining now about it?


QFT. Unprobeable T3 ships running warfare links is more unbalanced than a Strategic cruiser with covert ops cloak, nullifier and 2 WCS.

Toilet Voice
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:16:00 - [29]
 

its a bug fix, it should have been like that since introduction of the subsystem

you should have posted months ago if you did not like the nullifier Exclamation

Vhiskey
Caldari
Imperial Forces
Posted - 2009.11.30 12:16:00 - [30]
 

whats wrong with a almost uncatchable transport "shuttle" when you have to pay several hundred millions for it?


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