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Captain Futur3
Posted - 2009.11.24 12:49:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 12/12/2009 12:22:14
So after EVE got new ship, planets and starfield graphics, will the next step be new Effects/Explosions graphics?

I really hope so.

Some points that i think should be changed next.
Before reading my points, keed in mind that all graphics changes should be made as an option, so old PCs can still run the game like before. Also you should know, that all graphic changes dont lag the game. The only performance loss would be on your personal PC because of your outdated graphics card. But i believe that any graphics card after 2006 would be good enough to play the game smooth.

here my points:

  1. Missiles:

  1. Missiles dont hit the hitbox of a ship. They all fly INSIDE the ship and explode exactly in the center of a ship. That feels very wrongt and stupid. Why not make it so like with projectiles, that they explode on impact with the hull?


  2. Drastical Reduce their explosion size. For what damage the normal missiles do, the explosions are WAY to big. It looks more as some kind of mini nuke when the explosion is bigger than a BC which is several hundred meters long. When the programm is written well, this would need one or two changes of some variables. So for all missiles this could be done in 1-2 hours.
    This is how they look actually:
    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/65/185212981_cf56e6e31c.jpg?v=0


  3. Make the explosions more dense with fire. Explosions of missiles dont feel like as if there is a missile exploding, but more like a HUGE shockwave. Make them look like this:
    http://www.gamepulsive.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bsg-battle-scene.jpg


  1. Projectiles:


  1. Projectiles feel to empty in general. Some are ok, but most could need a touch more density too. They feel too big. Reduce their size. Instead of making them 10-20 meters bright, give them a radius of 1 meter or smaller and therefore make their color more intense. For example:
    http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/u2jdeD7orKQ/default.jpg


  2. I noticed that all ships have only very few hit points. I mean the points, where you are aiming at with your weapons. So all your projectiles hit the same spot over and over again what looks kinda boring. I think it would be much more beautyful, if projectiles hit the hitbox at a random point and not at a default hit point. While this can maybe reduce performance of the server, it could be programmed so that it is only on the client PC visible. Maybe it is already so that only the server calculates the values of all ships, but not where a projectile is. Then it wouldnt change the servers speed at all.


  1. Explosions:

  1. They all look the same. More explosions please!


  2. They need more volume too. In the first half second, the explosions look great, but as soon as the flash is gone, the explosion looks empty. I want more burning fire, as if oxygen is burning in space. Something like this:
    http://www.boygeniusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/image/explosion.jpg
    http://privateer.sourceforge.net/images/art-102-explosion.jpg


all in all, a bit more like in BSG would be very cool. I know that EVE is a very old game, but it is also maybe the only one that is improving all the time and i think that most of the players have quite modern PCs, so the arguement performance is not solid (especially because all these changes wouldnt effect the server performance, but only your personal PC performance - as an option).

Thats at least what i think should be done next graphically. Its something that everyone of you and me sees all the time in EVE...

thx.

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.24 12:58:00 - [2]
 

Moved from General Discussion.

Quite an interesting thread Smile

Mr fRostiE
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:10:00 - [3]
 

yeah, sort out the effects!

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:14:00 - [4]
 

The missile effects really do look dated and are one of the first graphical gripes people seem to comment on. This based on comments outside people put on EVE combat videos. I don't really see the need for the huge shockwaves either, since they don't even look good and obscure all the other effects.

Mrs Snowman
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:25:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Moved from General Discussion.

Quite an interesting thread Smile


lol, yea, move it to a place where its unlikly to receive any more responses :p

Salyan
Twilight Sparkle Fan Club
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:26:00 - [6]
 

What I would love to see if special wreck models for each ship.

Have you ever seen a freighter wreck? It is awesome; not just the standard bunch of twisted metal you see everywhere.

Also, I want death scenes! Kill a ship today, and all you see is:

1. Normal model (maybe on fire?)
2. Boom
3. Standard twisted metal wreck object

What I want:

1. Damaged ship (missing a wingy bit or two + on fire)
2. Spinning out of control, splintering into pieces
3. Boom
4. Leftover debris, that resemble what was destroyed.


Of course, implementing that for every ship type would be way too much work to be practical. Crying or Very sad

Nico Terces
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:37:00 - [7]
 

I agree a lot of the effects could improve visually. Your ideas and pictures really represent some of the visual love that Eve needs. I've stated a few of these before, but:

I would also like to see:

  • -Dual 250mm railguns having 2 barrels on my shiphull. It's a small graphic.

    -Graphic improvement of missiles and rockets being launched: I would like to see a rocket launched from a rocketlauncher to be fired (visually) as volleys. So basically, we'd see a lot of small missiles being launced from ship launchers instead of the current single projectile. A defender missile would still destroy (or disable) a single flight as a (cluster?)missile.

    -Miss effects: You actually miss the ship you're shooting at.

    -Ships that are heavily damaged to have visual hullbreaches, shortcircuiting surfaces, small fires, debris, etc.

    -Idle effects. If we're standing still (not warping, not shooting, just general idling, have small men (our janitors, or crew :O ) ejecting from our vessels which start polishing the hull, doing small repairs, whatever! When we start warping, aligning, etc, they quickly enter our ships again.

    -General overhaul in visual effects like stasis webbers, cynojumps, etc. Mentioned by loads before.

    -Give every ship as many visual utility hardpoints as we have highslots and midslots. A lot of these visual hardpoints wouldnt be visual when we havent got certain modules installed, but when my gun has 2 gunslots, and I install a tractorbeam, I would like the tractorbeammodule to be concrete apart from being a beam. Perhaps let a hatch open from which the salvage beam is launched when we salvage something. Same goes for webbers, warp-disruptors, etc.



These are just some ideas, I hope they contribute.

Mavrk
Minmatar
TOP GUHN
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:43:00 - [8]
 

remember Day or Darkness II? The scene where the condors are flying through the drone field? Make the explosion for tiny ships like that, something where your ship loses control. Flames spew, the ship's path barrels, and finally it tumbles forward and explodes.

really the only time you should insta-pop, is when, well... you insta-pop

Chani DaXes
Gallente
G.B.H.D
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:44:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Chani DaXes on 24/11/2009 13:44:42
Look at the Angelice Prime trailer, from early in game graphics, how the caracal burns and tumbles.

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/video/2/angelice_v2_hires_Custom.wmv

This didn't scale back then, all the particle effects lagged out the client, should be doable now.

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.11.24 14:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Chani DaXes
Edited by: Chani DaXes on 24/11/2009 13:44:42
Look at the Angelice Prime trailer, from early in game graphics, how the caracal burns and tumbles.

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/video/2/angelice_v2_hires_Custom.wmv

This didn't scale back then, all the particle effects lagged out the client, should be doable now.


Wow, why do the effects look 10x worse now years later than they did there ugh

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2009.11.24 15:27:00 - [11]
 

I concur, there are a few things that need polishing.

Som3one
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.24 16:17:00 - [12]
 

Would be nice if turrets acually missed when you miss

TRD 2371
Posted - 2009.11.24 16:26:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: TRD 2371 on 24/11/2009 16:36:59

Originally by: Som3one
Would be nice if turrets acually missed when you miss
and also just stuff like a missile from a raven being fired basicly coming out of nowhere. there is just the plain ship hull. not even an opening. nothing. and it appears atleast 30meters infront.
must be entirely magic. Smile

anyway cool thread. ugh

RabbidFerret
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.11.24 18:25:00 - [14]
 

Good stuff.

I believe the age-old missiles exploding from the center of the ship is a result of the fact that eve ships do not have hitboxes or any sort of collider mesh around their model. They have a center point and then an impact radius that attempts to prevent ships from colliding. Its an old cheat around having to do all sorts of nasty collision computations. So getting missiles to explode on contact with the mesh of every ship would require some decent re-engineering of the central code, but it is definitely a step forward for eve. Someone check if shots from guns do the same thing (i cant remember) and if they don't, feel free to shoot me down.

Regardless, that effect bug often ruins the otherwise cinematic experience of combat in eve and I would love to see it changed.

Captain Futur3
Posted - 2009.11.24 18:59:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 24/11/2009 19:09:05
Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 24/11/2009 19:07:21
Originally by: Chani DaXes
Edited by: Chani DaXes on 24/11/2009 13:44:42
Look at the Angelice Prime trailer, from early in game graphics, how the caracal burns and tumbles.

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/video/2/angelice_v2_hires_Custom.wmv

This didn't scale back then, all the particle effects lagged out the client, should be doable now.


WOW! Thats excellent! There is so much better than we have now. Not only the explosions of the ship, but also the thruster trails and the impacts of the weapon projectiles. Man why dont we have this!

Originally by: RabbidFerret
Good stuff.

I believe the age-old missiles exploding from the center of the ship is a result of the fact that eve ships do not have hitboxes or any sort of collider mesh around their model. They have a center point and then an impact radius that attempts to prevent ships from colliding. Its an old cheat around having to do all sorts of nasty collision computations. So getting missiles to explode on contact with the mesh of every ship would require some decent re-engineering of the central code, but it is definitely a step forward for eve. Someone check if shots from guns do the same thing (i cant remember) and if they don't, feel free to shoot me down.

Regardless, that effect bug often ruins the otherwise cinematic experience of combat in eve and I would love to see it changed.



Thats wrong. You should have a look at projectiles for example. They all dont explode inside the ship, but on the ship hull like it should be. So it IS possible without much new coding. Its just that for some stupid reason, missiles are handled different.

Edit: Why is my first post character limited? I wanted to add some of your ideas here to my first post, but i wasnt abled. I could only add one single scentense and then it stopped :(.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2009.11.24 19:21:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Captain Futur3

Thats wrong. You should have a look at projectiles for example. They all dont explode inside the ship, but on the ship hull like it should be. So it IS possible without much new coding. Its just that for some stupid reason, missiles are handled different.


It's cause missiles are like mini ships with no collision detection, which is why you can target them (though you cannot lock) and they pass through objects etc. I just think of them as similar to the phase missiles from Sins.

I also like the explosion effects, at least on torps... the rest are kinda bland.

The only thing that bugs me is that missiles disappear behind all those ******ed dust clouds that they should have gotten rid of years ago. Rolling Eyes

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.11.24 19:35:00 - [17]
 

It would be very intersting if CCP could design a system wehre instead of a set of verticies as impact points a set of lines, or better yet polygons was used, with impacts randomly interpolating across their length/surface.

Also, miss effects for guns would eb nice, though much more intensive in both programming and art departments.
Having missiles with slower expplosion velocities delay their explosions a bit so they explode "behind" fast ships would be neat, as well as having missiles explode at 'explosion radius' distance from their target.

Thirzarr
Posted - 2009.11.24 23:51:00 - [18]
 

I still think autocannons should go ratatatatat...
Continuous fire: ROF shots per duration. Just imagine the way a maelstrom would look with 8 AC's blazing agains some Apoc... epic!

Also missiles should not "blob". Fanning out would be cool, also rapid-succession or some other firemode. If done right this might actually reduce the number of commands that need to be sent to the server?

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.11.25 00:23:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nico Terces
I agree a lot of the effects could improve visually. Your ideas and pictures really represent some of the visual love that Eve needs. I've stated a few of these before, but:

I would also like to see:

[list] [*]-Dual 250mm railguns having 2 barrels on my shiphull. It's a small graphic.




Actually, they do. Maybe it is your graphics settings or something, but I used to use D250 rails all the time. They have the turret, and two barrels coming out of it if you zoom in. Same with the quad lasers for amarr cruisers. They also have two trailings behind them as well. (4 for the quads)

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.25 02:59:00 - [20]
 

Missles don't have to detonate on the graphic skin of the ship to be realistic, just on a random spot on the collision skins.

Thorsyrrian
Posted - 2009.11.25 03:16:00 - [21]
 

Whilst I agree that the graphics need to be upgraded... I hope they keep the aim of realism...

There is NO OXYGEN in space... So explosions should have very limited fire... A missile impacting on a ship would only start to show fire when there is a hull breach, and not at all before, and this is assuming there is oxygen in the ship...

To that note... the amount of fire we see in explosions, when a ship is destroyed, is more than sufficient in terms of realism.

I would like to see more done about shockwaves and I believe there could be sound that is heard at the point when the shockwave reaches the other ships... i.e. no sound at any other time... being in cold, silent, lifeless space afterall...

Captain Futur3
Posted - 2009.11.25 11:11:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 25/11/2009 11:11:16
Originally by: Thorsyrrian
Whilst I agree that the graphics need to be upgraded... I hope they keep the aim of realism...

There is NO OXYGEN in space... So explosions should have very limited fire... A missile impacting on a ship would only start to show fire when there is a hull breach, and not at all before, and this is assuming there is oxygen in the ship...

To that note... the amount of fire we see in explosions, when a ship is destroyed, is more than sufficient in terms of realism.

I would like to see more done about shockwaves and I believe there could be sound that is heard at the point when the shockwave reaches the other ships... i.e. no sound at any other time... being in cold, silent, lifeless space afterall...


I think this is one part where is say "Coolness over realism". Every single SCIFI movie does this too and i think most of the battles wouldnt be that great to watch, when there wouldnt be fire on projectile explosions.
Also i dont know exactly, but i can imagine, that putting a specific ammount of oxygen in missiles can be very helpfull (maybe the fuel is oxygen too) so that on impact, the missile creates a very high heat on the ship hull, so that the extrem temperature difference will make the hull break. I am not a physican, but even if that wouldnt work, i still say, coolness over realism here. Else i could also argue, why can you dock and undoch in several seconds where you should have to wait for hours until you are with your ship in a station and so on...

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2009.11.25 11:47:00 - [23]
 

I'd also kinda like for missiles to actually look something like they do on the icons rather than a grey cone. I know it's not something people see regularly but it bugs me...

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.25 18:58:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 25/11/2009 19:02:02
Originally by: RabbidFerret
I believe the age-old missiles exploding from the center of the ship is a result of the fact that eve ships do not have hitboxes or any sort of collider mesh around their model. They have a center point and then an impact radius that attempts to prevent ships from colliding.

This is wrong, and I suggested the following solution in the assembly hall thread regarding missile effects:

First, you need to realize that missiles, the game mechanics, and missiles, the visual effects, do not need to both be changed when you're only interested in fixing the visuals.

Imagine the current missile path code as a game mechanic only, where the point in space we simulate is what matters to the server and clients when it comes to the 'serious business of blowing stuff up'. That point which travels through space representing several missiles in flight can then be used to create visual effects by considering it a focal point rather than the absolute place where the visual representation of the missiles must be.

At missile launch, the point will be moving towards the target from the center of the ship while the visual representation of the 7 missiles (fired by our beloved Drake) will leave their individual launchers in a pretty sequence and follow their independent beautiful paths towards the focal point.

Once they catch up with the focal point they will be like a swarm of fish dancing around the lead (invisible) fish in a way that will make you cream your pants. Or at least your opponent will as the missiles tear his hull into pieces.

Thinking even more about it... this should be possible do all in the GPU afaik. Haven't really dwelt that deeply into modern graphics accelerator programming.

Templayer
Amarr
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.11.27 06:52:00 - [25]
 

This man has a point.
Thats totally things that need polishing. (also we need new backgrounds and more visual effects like nebulas and dust clouds etc)

Kronossan
Bellum Esca
Posted - 2009.11.27 07:36:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Templayer
(also we need new backgrounds and more visual effects like nebulas and dust clouds etc)



I personally do believe those should take priority, though after that the explosions and such mentioned in the OP could be looked at indeed.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.27 07:58:00 - [27]
 

signed. Got new PC, want more graphics.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2009.11.27 08:02:00 - [28]
 

Rakshasa's got it right, I think, except for one added thing: Missiles almost never actually impact the target vessel. Explosion velocity and radius stats are modelling damage based on expanding matter from a nearby detonation, so it would be more faithful to the math if the missiles exploded close to the ship, instead of touching it. A frigate orbitting a drake would be at the epicenter of what would look like very dense and awesome flak fire, whereas light missiles being fired at a battleship would indeed catch up and strike the defenses.

A Malediction could outrun a cruise missile and then surf the wave when it detonates behind, registering it more as an increase in radiation (easily withstood by any space ship) than a "hit", whereas the rockets it sent back at the Raven would scream straight in, popping ineffectively on the shields like rain.

In any event, the whole thing would be a client-side facelift, with no impact on the nuts and bolts of combat. As a result, I would turn it off to improve my FPS.

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2009.11.27 15:05:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Templayer
This man has a point.
Thats totally things that need polishing. (also we need new backgrounds and more visual effects like nebulas and dust clouds etc)



yeah man i was playing X3 last night and i still gawp at the nebulas and planets (Just as good as what we are getting) and still keep crashing into asteroids because i cant see two feet infront of me in some systems. Makes me laugh so much when it happens. I was fighting a group of pirates in a asteroid belt and two of them (Stupid AI) turned to come get me and slammed face first into a asteroid. so funny

Some Stuff i want to see:-

Maybe could be a POS?
Love flying in and out of these
Nebula over entire system
Couldnt find the green system that is more dense that that pic.

Walton Kildare
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2009.11.27 18:19:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Walton Kildare on 27/11/2009 18:19:38
From what I've seen, the missile doesn't really originate from the center of the launching ship, but from a point just to the right of the center of your screen. It then curves towards the target and flies in a beeline directly to the target. It's very subtle, but annoying. I believe the reason missiles are coded to act they way they are is, as a few have mentioned, they're independent objects to the game, and the game has features designed to deal with them (defenders). Ultimately, I imagine defenders could just be done away with, replaced by a flak gun that fires a barrage of explosive shells into the path of the missile. Does anyone other than the NPCs use Defenders anyway?

I do remember a post about the missile effects though, I forget who posted it. But he had these wonderful ideas of how the different missiles would like. Rockets launching in salvos like they do from an Apache helicopter, cruise missiles ejecting from the launcher before lighting off their own engines... it would be great to see volleys of missiles actually look like a volley of missiles, not simply one giant missile.

As for ship explosions... Here's about what they look like now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MipPH24q4yk
Pay special attention to 0:14-0:26. A bright flash, then wreckage... after a single shot no less.. hey, it's a lot like an EVE battle is now, right? :P

Anyway, here's a ship exploding from Descent: Freespace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FS_Explosion.gif
At this point, the hull of that Orion-class Destroyer (think battleship) has been compromised to the point that secondary explosions are breaking out all over the ship. At some point, the hull buckles, fractures, and the entire ship explodes... In realtime, for a ship that size, it took a good 5 seconds to reach the point where the hull cracked, then another 5 seconds for the ship to be consumed. For a cruiser-sized ship, it took about 3 seconds total.
Actually, if you look at that Babylon 5 video, from about 3:16 to 3:20 shows a ship with a badly compromised hull. Hull breaches all over, and in this case, an uncontrolled starboard roll.
Anyway, the point is, if we get these kind of death throes in EVE ships, it could do a lot for the lagspike some people get when their ship is destroyed.


Justin


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