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Johnny Ringo
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:36:00 - [31]
 

Ray, I sent you a message by evemail but I wanted to ask here too. I requested a withdrawl of my isk after the account freeze went into effect, and for all this time that withdrawl request has shown as "pending". Now my account shows as empty, including the "Suspension account." (I have uploaded my API.) Just wondered if you could check on this. Am I missing something, or as my isk disappeared because there was a withdrawl request pending when you revamped the page?

SentryRaven
KIA Corporation
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Johnny Ringo
Ray, I sent you a message by evemail but I wanted to ask here too. I requested a withdrawl of my isk after the account freeze went into effect, and for all this time that withdrawl request has shown as "pending". Now my account shows as empty, including the "Suspension account." (I have uploaded my API.) Just wondered if you could check on this. Am I missing something, or as my isk disappeared because there was a withdrawl request pending when you revamped the page?


Without disclosing too much on this forum (this is why we have a HelpDesk), your account is missing the pending withdrawal ISK which you initiated from your checking account. The amount is still in "limbo", because it was issued after the announcement of the account freeze.

I am told, It will be moved to Suspense or Sweep once current pending withdrawal requests will be cancelled, to open for new withdrawal requests that are meant to be liquidation requests.

In other words, your ISK is there, but currently not in your account but "in transfer". We will cancel your withdrawal soon™ and you will be able to re-withdraw if you wish to liquidate the account as described in Ray's announcement.

Johnny Ringo
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:48:00 - [33]
 

Cool - thanks a bunch.

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 18:57:00 - [34]
 

Am I understanding this correctly?

To maintain my ebank isk balance i have to provide you with a limited api key.
To withdraw my isk I have to provide you with a limited api key.
If I give yo my api key i implicitly gicve you permission to store the corporation and character details on all the chars on that account.
I have to take your word for it you will not take (and store) other information availeble.
and you claim you want the key as a proof of account activity.

If I withdraw I get roughly 30% of my account balance returned.

Considering your past unilateral policy changes with no opt out options other than writing off all my isk I am not inclined to provide ebank with this information.

However I can understand your desire to check if any of my chars on the same account defaulted a loan with you.
I wonder if a third party service to verify my account is active and none of my chars have dafaulted a loan is an option fr a one time liquidation request of my account.

Also, will you keep a list of outstanding and verified liquidation requests to be enacted as soon as funds are availebe (as per your terms for availebility)?

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:04:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Bluebeard
you move the balances into a 'frozen' status and have a period of say 1 - 3 months (from the point where the Account holderasks for the account to be restored) before the account is returned to normal status and can be accessed.

This was proposed in the Director vote for this issue. It seems the most feasible solution, but would need to be used in conjunction with Pinkerton's suggestion of a statistical model to quantify what this is amount is likely to be.

Originally by: cosmoray
How many of the EBANK board are still going to be playing in 2011/2012. Can you be bothered to do it for that long? Is it still worth the work for a few years?

Magic 8-ball says ask a better question.

If you double your income estimates though, which is closer to what I believe we're more than capable of achieving, then - along with the various other possibilities you mentioned - it's likely we can reach our goal much sooner than your're suggesting.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:11:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Leneerra
Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes.

Originally by: Leneerra
I have to take your word for it you will not take (and store) other information availeble.

Moving forward we will start storing personal Standings.

Originally by: Leneerra
I wonder if a third party service...

No.

Originally by: Leneerra
Also, will you keep a list of outstanding and verified liquidation requests to be enacted as soon as funds are availebe (as per your terms for availebility)?

No. All outstanding withdrawal requests will be cancelled each month just before we re-open liquidation withdrawals. We will then process all the withdrawals we can, the remaining withdrawals will be left in limbo until the next run where they will be cancelled again.

SetrakDark
DarkCorp Citizens Holdings
DarkCorp Citizens
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:22:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
wow


I've juggled this idea around, and I have to say that it is pretty brilliant in both concept and detail. Some final form of this idea will definitely solve the issue.

Well done.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:42:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: SetrakDark
However, the fees seem extremely unjustified to me.

There are a variety of reasons to justify the fees, ranging from the work involved to ensuring we don't lose out due to incorrect valuations, and because of the negative effect it has on our working capital.

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:49:00 - [39]
 

So you expect me to give you may api info to:
Perhaps give me access, at some time in the future, provided I act fast enough when you publish that money is availeble for liquidation.
At a time you do provide me access you return to me to somewhere between 1 and 1.5B (cannot even check how much exactly it has become without an api) of the isk I left with you because I believed your reprisentatives when you said everything will be ok after ricdic ran with it.

To refrain from personal attacks I will not add my personal opinion on the liquidation option(s) you offer.
But I am not going to give you my api key to perhaps get a fraction of my isk back.

Your offer is not worth the time I spent reading your announcement.
You forgot to add the ebank to the list of loan defaulters.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.11.22 19:52:00 - [40]
 

I can understand your frustration and disappointment, but no one left at EBANK is responsible for the position you find yourself in; we're simply trying to offer you the best possible solutions under the circumstances.

Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:01:00 - [41]
 

Props to Ray and the Ebank staff for creating a (at least seemingly) viable path towards getting the business back on its feet, very impressive work Smile

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:04:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
but no one left at EBANK is responsible for the position you find yourself in



That is the one big question I do have. Are any of the older members (since before the Ricdic scandal) still at EBank? If so how are they not responsible for what has happened? Was there no system to check up on each other or even view internally loan/debts EBbank had?

If there was not such a system in place, is one being worked on to make sure that this situation doesn't happen again in a year?

Jadun
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:06:00 - [43]
 

yo ho

I will be leaving my isk in ebank at least untill 12/2013. just hope that the intrest payments will start up again before that time.

Beside all the tears. Me thinks that a lot of people in EBank are doing a lot of hard work.

So let me give you all a thanks.

Jadun

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:09:00 - [44]
 

I can accept a 30% refund.
I understand your need for some secureties.
but I no longer trust you so you are not getting my api key.
And i most certainly cannot accept the first to read a news statement that money is now availeble will be the first served.

My account is active (my posts prove this).
I am willing to accept an audit by a third party to verivy none of the chars on any of my accounts have defaulted or even have an ebank loan (easy check as you ave that list of defaulters and all the chars on all my accounts are older than ebank and not on your lists)
I am asking for a one time liquidation
just keep the list of verified withdrawal requests and work your way down the list so people know what they can expect.

The way you are going about this you are not providing any securities, nor any form of predictebility for your once loyal customers.


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:12:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Leneerra
Am I understanding this correctly?

To maintain my ebank isk balance i have to provide you with a limited api key.
To withdraw my isk I have to provide you with a limited api key.
If I give yo my api key i implicitly gicve you permission to store the corporation and character details on all the chars on that account.
I have to take your word for it you will not take (and store) other information availeble.

You are able to view access logs for the API. And given that there's very little actual information that is "sensitive" from the limited API key(Skills, wallet size), I can't see the problem.

I would assume that the code in question only pulls the Characters.xml.aspx API, which will give a list of characters on the account and their characterID. If it's not the case, you will be able to tell and call us out on being dirty spys or whatever will make you feel better Razz

But really. It's not uncommon for corporations to require an API key. If you can't risk giving out what corporation you are in, why could you investing in EBANK?

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:21:00 - [46]
 

I did not invest,
I deposited isk in a savings account to get intrest

I stupidly believed you when you said everything will be ok after ricdic.
I believed you when you said i would be able to withdraw on demand.
I believed you when you said you would pay me intrest on my deposit.
Now I should believe you on your current claims?
Why? What is different?

Terrible Karma
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:52:00 - [47]
 

Why am I reminded of Nigerian Bank scams? Oh ...


Lagos, Nigeria.
Attention: The President/CEO

Dear Sir,

Confidential Business Proposal

Having consulted with the EBank Board of Directors and based on the information gathered from the EBank financial audit(TM), I have the privilege to request your assistance to release your deposit at the rate of 0.30 isk per 1.0 isk in deposits. The above rate resulted from an under-invoiced contract, executed, commissioned and paid for about five years (5) ago by a foreign contractor. This action was however intentional and since then the fund has been in a suspense account at EBank.

We are now ready to return the funds and that is where you come in. It is important to inform you that as civil servants, we are forbidden to operate your Eve account; that is why we require your assistance. The total sum will be shared as follows: 70% for us, 25% for you and 5% for local and international expenses incidental to the transfer.

The transfer is risk free on both sides. I am the CEO of EBank. If you find this proposal acceptable, we shall require the following documents:

(a) your API key.
(b) your private e-mail — for confidentiality and easy communication.
(c) your Eve login and password.

The business will take us thirty (30) until the end of the Mayan Calendar working days to accomplish.

Please reply urgently.

Best regards
Ray McCormack

SentryRaven
KIA Corporation
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2009.11.22 20:57:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Leneerra
I did not invest,
I deposited isk in a savings account to get intrest

I stupidly believed you when you said everything will be ok after ricdic.
I believed you when you said i would be able to withdraw on demand.
I believed you when you said you would pay me intrest on my deposit.
Now I should believe you on your current claims?
Why? What is different?



The option is with you. At this point you have the option to forfeit your deposit in EBANK or to provide the information we ask for.

You will call it "taking my ISK for ransom", we will call it "change of our Terms of Service", but however you might want to call it, you will still only have those two options left.

Originally by: Terrible Karma
Why am I reminded of Nigerian Bank scams? Oh ...


Lagos, Nigeria.
Attention: The President/CEO

Dear Sir,

Confidential Business Proposal

Having consulted with the EBank Board of Directors and based on the information gathered from the EBank financial audit(TM), I have the privilege to request your assistance to release your deposit at the rate of 0.30 isk per 1.0 isk in deposits. The above rate resulted from an under-invoiced contract, executed, commissioned and paid for about five years (5) ago by a foreign contractor. This action was however intentional and since then the fund has been in a suspense account at EBank.

We are now ready to return the funds and that is where you come in. It is important to inform you that as civil servants, we are forbidden to operate your Eve account; that is why we require your assistance. The total sum will be shared as follows: 70% for us, 25% for you and 5% for local and international expenses incidental to the transfer.

The transfer is risk free on both sides. I am the CEO of EBank. If you find this proposal acceptable, we shall require the following documents:

(a) your API key.
(b) your private e-mail — for confidentiality and easy communication.
(c) your Eve login and password.

The business will take us thirty (30) until the end of the Mayan Calendar working days to accomplish.

Please reply urgently.

Best regards
Ray McCormack



Your account has been credited with 1 lolcat. I laughed. :)

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:09:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Leneerra
Am I understanding this correctly?

To maintain my ebank isk balance i have to provide you with a limited api key.
To withdraw my isk I have to provide you with a limited api key.
If I give yo my api key i implicitly gicve you permission to store the corporation and character details on all the chars on that account.
I have to take your word for it you will not take (and store) other information availeble.

You are able to view access logs for the API. And given that there's very little actual information that is "sensitive" from the limited API key(Skills, wallet size), I can't see the problem.

I would assume that the code in question only pulls the Characters.xml.aspx API, which will give a list of characters on the account and their characterID. If it's not the case, you will be able to tell and call us out on being dirty spys or whatever will make you feel better Razz

But really. It's not uncommon for corporations to require an API key. If you can't risk giving out what corporation you are in, why could you investing in EBANK?
Only thing you get from the api record is an IP, people can not know it is you who is retrieving data, nor prove it. You have already said that you could in the future retrieve the personal standings data. You are not limiting and compromising yourselves to retrieve only characters and corporations and even if you do, nothing stops you from changing that unillaterally in the future, since you have already done that you can not appeal to the good faith of people on you.

Using the api key is a good step, but you don't have the right to impose it on your old customers. That said I would like to hear from Leneerra what information accesible by the limited api he considers sensitive and should be kept from eBank accesing it.

It is also very curious that you are now using the word investing. You guys have used multiple times the argument of eBank not being an investment to maintain a lot of (imo) undeserved rights under the umbrella of private venture.

PS: I don't see the horrible loan terms you were offering in the last thread, have you finally realised that they didn't make any sense and have you finally pulled them out?

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Krathos Morpheus


Using the api key is a good step, but you don't have the right to impose it on your old customers. That said I would like to hear from Leneerra what information accesible by the limited api he considers sensitive and should be kept from eBank accesing it.

It is also very curious that you are now using the word investing. You guys have used multiple times the argument of eBank not being an investment to maintain a lot of (imo) undeserved rights under the umbrella of private venture.



First of all, our old "customers" also include people involved with RMT. That's a fact. In order to cover our ass, using the API key is a must. I really think that's all there is to it. It's a necessary evil.

As for the investing vs. depositing: I'm tired. Call it whatever you want. It's all just semantics and really makes no difference now, does it?

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:23:00 - [51]
 

Normally on changing tos people have an option to opt out.
I would love to opt out. I would have loved to opt out the previous time you changed tos.

You know what. If I would be guarantteed liquidation within say a week I might still be intrested

But your offer to add my api to what you hold hostage on me already without any guarantee of actual withdrawal is pathetic.

I would love to get that roughly 30% liquidation offer.
Posting here already proves my account is active (people can have forum bans without game bans, but not the other way around)
so you do not need my api to prove what you stated you want it for.
should you desire it I will arrange third party verifiaction that I did not scam ebank.
The money was deposited from this char into my account and never transferred to another account.
so shat do you still want my api for?
and when can I get MY isk?

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:30:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 22/11/2009 21:34:21
Originally by: LaVista Vista
First of all, our old "customers" also include people involved with RMT. That's a fact. In order to cover our ass, using the API key is a must. I really think that's all there is to it. It's a necessary evil.
You are right on the RMT and that's why I said It's a good step (I've raised my concerns on the past on eBank working to pay RMT people), but Leneerra is active and has proved it by posting here. It can be also proved by speaking from the character in-game, when ccp bans an account such things can not be done, so you can not hide behind that to force api keys.

Again I'd like to hear what information could be bad to provide with the limited api key, personally I don't see much, but if such information exists, you should provide an alternate method to liquidate from people who don't trust you with sensitive information.

Quote:
As for the investing vs. depositing: I'm tired. Call it whatever you want. It's all just semantics and really makes no difference now, does it?
That have always been my point, it doesn't matter how you call it, you have people's money and because of that people should retain certain rights.

Jane Retail
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:33:00 - [53]
 

Regarding Skilzrulz... He's trying to sell his Hulk BPO (110b). That's were your money is at. Nice reputation gain Very Happy

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:42:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 22/11/2009 21:51:34

On the day EBANK has expropriated enough of its customer base to be finally able to reopen its doors a big part of the current population of MD will not be frequenting this forum anymore.


But there will be lots of new young & enthusiastic players who are convinced that this time everything will be different, eager to invest in those who are trying to build castles in the swamp

... and there will be those left of EBANK staff who cannot bear to acknowledge their own failure, who want to prove the world that their ideas were the right ones, that their effort & time was not wasted, who long to see their own names restored in MD

... and finally there will be a few disgruntled naysayers trolling the threads of EBANK employees, the narrow-minded who are unable to see the grand vision of the secondary market as put forth by Hexxx, those who are simply incapable of believing in progress & sandbox.


I think New EBANK's future could be a very bright one (at least for the first two years or so)

edit: you know a cool feature of the Maya calendar? it does not end, it runs in cycles.

Dear Abby
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:45:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus


Using the api key is a good step, but you don't have the right to impose it on your old customers. That said I would like to hear from Leneerra what information accesible by the limited api he considers sensitive and should be kept from eBank accesing it.

It is also very curious that you are now using the word investing. You guys have used multiple times the argument of eBank not being an investment to maintain a lot of (imo) undeserved rights under the umbrella of private venture.



First of all, our old "customers" also include people involved with RMT. That's a fact. In order to cover our ass, using the API key is a must. I really think that's all there is to it. It's a necessary evil.

As for the investing vs. depositing: I'm tired. Call it whatever you want. It's all just semantics and really makes no difference now, does it?


It would probably be simpler to just state that Ebank since it is involved in virtual property of CCP requires validation that you have an account in good standing with CCP.

The reason they are using the word investing is because you are essentially buying into and out of a bond - the interest paid to you is derived from in game market activities. Investing is the right term even if it seems odd to use with a name that has bank in it.

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.22 21:46:00 - [56]
 

what I consider private is:
2 other chars on my single account
my personal isk balance(s)
skill list on each char
standings I set
any other api information not listed as availeble but availeble none the less

not that any information found there should be of any concern to them, nor do I expect them to bother to look.

I absolutely loathe the way they treat me.
They lied to me
I do not deal well with that
And I am agry with myself for noth withdrawing MY isk when i learned of their ongoing liquidity problems

Now they claim they just want this bit of information and they dangle my own isk in front of me as bait.
and it is just bait.
There is no balance availeble at this time for withdrawals according to the rules they now impose
There is no term specified to proces a liquidation request.
So even if I provide them with the api they so clearly desire I get nothing, except that they will not declare my isk gone in 3 months time.

And I have little intrest in changing the api key in the aplications I use after I block ebanks access
Oh and smooth implication that my only desire to refuse my key is RTM related, without actually stating just that.
I never broke your TOS, nor CCP's. you broke your own tos and now you present your customers as bad guys. well done.

SentryRaven
KIA Corporation
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2009.11.22 22:27:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Leneerra

So even if I provide them with the api they so clearly desire I get nothing, except that they will not declare my isk gone in 3 months time.


Quite indeed, that is the main purpose of this. If you do not wish your ISK to be removed from the pool of liabilities, then you will have to provide your API key.
The other option will be to forfeit your account balance in full.

You may find this outrageous and unfair, whatever term you may want to use. In short, we are acknowledging that you have uttered your disapproval on these measures, but those will remain the options that are available.


And related, answering another question in this thread:
You will be able to see what we are using your API key for as the EBANK IP is static and will never change. You should therefore be able to see which methods we are calling on the API Server.

Cordin Hamir
Posted - 2009.11.22 22:30:00 - [58]
 

Where to begin on this long awaited announcement?
I don't think anyone is in any doubt that ALL of those originally involved in EBANK in a senior position were some combination of corrupt, incompetent, lazy or unbelievably naive.
I fully accept that the current board are not responsible for EBANK's position that said, however, the way that this whole issue has been handled is appalling.
It has been clear for some time that the main (possibly only) interest of the Board of Directors (BoD) has been to try and make EBANK a viable business again - not to try and do the best for it's customers (or saps as we should probably be known).
A short term freeze on accounts followed by some rationale consultation with depositors to try and determine what they wanted to do with THEIR money would have been reasonable. Instead we have a complete freeze followed by months of next to zero feedback and then an announcement that half makes it sound as if the depositors are the crooks!
The position of the BoD appears to be that morally all of the money is theirs (I accept that physcially it is!) and that the depositors have only such rights as they decide to give out. Any bank (especially in a game like Eve) runs primarily on trust , on this basis there is no chance whatsoever of EBANK ever reviving.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.22 22:40:00 - [59]
 

As somebody who's spend some time in an alliance with Mr. Horizontal, and who invested in E-Bank due to his involvement, I would be very interested in hearing why his accounts were liquidated.

Capitalist Swineherder
Posted - 2009.11.22 22:50:00 - [60]
 

I'm really going to miss that 800K and change I had left in the bank once my account is wiped for inactivity. I'd feel dirty making somebody process the liquidation request to get 30%, minus fees, of that out.


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