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Kalissa
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:33:00 - [1441]
 

Originally by: John MacCoy
Edited by: John MacCoy on 21/11/2009 04:25:10
Cancel Dominion.

There I said it.

This whole thing is a shambles. You dont have a clue what you're doing anymore. You had changes that everyone loved and because everyone loved them you thought something was wrong therefore they had to be changed. You then realised that everyone hated the newer changes so you then made even more changes that everyone hated. Now everyone is really p****d so you decide to reverse all changes to one thing and completely mess up the other changes to something that resembles the defence of luxemburg in World War Two.

Anyone else seeing this?

Come on CCP, listen to us, Please. We are the players. We play the game. We know how is it to be played. We know what makes us happy and what really sucks. Is it really that hard to listen to the people that basically pay you? Come on!

Page 49
Post 1454


After reading your post it occured to me you may have hit on something. The very fact that for the first time I can remember everyone was happy with the potential changes may have spooked CCP into thinking they were making a horrible mistake.

Trust us CCP, you werent.

Kuzim Blaky'all
Minmatar
Recycling and Recovery
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:42:00 - [1442]
 

Edited by: Kuzim Blaky''all on 21/11/2009 04:44:11
Yo momma ship be all shes worth
since a day a dawg momma ship firs give birth
she ain lose she value, she still worth a bunch
even tho da ccp posse almost cost crunch
the value, teh cost, the thins what go in
when a dawg be a momma ship makin'

but ain no word on bufin up re-re crew
since ccp posse gave a dawg salvager 2
all a dawg need to make him chill
is bad dawgs to pay they silence tax bill

but dawg, somtims someone be flying big boat
an top dawgs, in they ship, be mad as a goat
when a posse, be a viking, cant figure out
what a dawg do, it makes payin dawgs shout
so dig it dawg, i jus got a message:
when a senate make a bill, a dawg commit to its passage
when da posse who pay
an play
all the day
an a bigger dawg say
ok
to him death ray
an all dawgs else, who had time to test
say "Dawg dig it, all da work you do? is da best!"
jus let it happen, water under a bridge
we be chill again in no time
like we be in a frige

in short dawg, make da reaper touff

49,1455 word up

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.21 05:02:00 - [1443]
 

Originally by: Lira Reib

I'm down with not vilifying nozh, but the fact is the words "target painters" are in a dev blog about capitals. Somebody needs to be vilified, and if it's the entire capital team I'm pretty sure we can adapt.



Confirmed. Also notice how the fact they've totally ignored the objections how they've nerfed the phoenix into uselessness, and nerfed the naggy into near uselessness. Frankly I'm tired of being told to train for a revelation.

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.21 05:24:00 - [1444]
 

CCP, please hire Kraken.

He knows what the **** is goin on.

Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.21 05:47:00 - [1445]
 

@lord cyrez
Nice work. I did some calculations and test runs on Sisi and get the same results (except I didn't look at the Claymore and Ragnarok Sig Bonuses). Just one thing: nearly all Caldari pilots use shield tanks and with shield extender rigs your sig radius goes up. In a real fight the Phoenix sig radius would be around 2000 so the damage reduction from citadel torps would only be around 11% and not 21%. But still you lose some dps. I think everything is said about this stupid Target Painters idea. Just one more thing: The Phoenix is a shield tanker so you need your med slots. I would never ever drop 2-3 tank slots on that thing just to fit painters.

You've only looked at the explosions radius but the situation is even worse. The range of your Citadel Torps is limited to 37km and you can't switch to lange range ammo like turret dreads. But the biggest problem is the explosion velocity. In siege mode it's reduced to 12m/s and in my opinion thats a bigger problem than the high explosion radius.

CCP Nozh is right when he said "On Titans and Supercapitals that [high explosion radius] doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with." True, the sig radius of carriers, moms and titans is big enough so they receive 100% of the phoenix' citadel torps damage. BUT only if they don't move. If they're flying with max speed the incoming damage is reduced significantly due to the extremly slow explosion velocity.

Damage reduction because of the high eploxions radius:

Naglfar 27%
Revelation 24%
Moros 23%
Phoenix 21%

Damage reduction because of the slow explosion velocity:
(numbers in brackets are the damage reduction if the ship uses a T2 100mn AB and a T2 Overdrive)

Ragnarok 18% (33%)
Erebus 2%
Avatar full damage (10%)
Leviathan full damage (5%)

Hel 36% (51%)
Nyx 26%
Aeon 15%
Wyvern 11%

Nidhoggur 85% (89%)
Thanatos 81%
Archon 81%
Chimera 78%

The full damage is only applied to the Avatar or the Leviathan - no matter if they move or not. But the Ragnarok receives 18% less damage when moving with max speed. Titans are the largest ships in game and with the current missile stats you can't even do full damage to these flying stations. Its getting much more worse when you look at the Moms and Carriers. A Nidhoggur receives 85% less damage!! For my test runs I've used a Phoenix with 3 Citadel Torp launchers, a siege module, two T2 Damage mods and all damage skills at 5. This phoenix did 7369dps with kin and 5895dps with em/therm/expl torps. When fighting a Nidhoggur travelling at max speed the dps was reduced to 1105dps kin (810dps em/therm/expl). If the carrier fits a BS sized AB the dps was reduced to 810dps kin and 648dps em/therm/expl. A BS with a gank setup does the same (or even more) damage. Interesting fact: when fighting a carrier (especially the Nidhoggur) it doensn't matter whether you enter siege or not. If you're in siege the dps is drastically reduced due to the expl.velocity drawback. If you're not in siege you won't get the dps boost but at least your damage reaches the carrer at 100%. In the end you do nearly the same damage.

With the current stats on Sisi I would never fit Citadel Torps anymore. I will switch to Citadel Crusie Missiles which means 1 month additional training time. Or I spend that month on training Minmar BS to 5 because most of the Minmar caps can now speedtank Caldari Dreads without a single speed mod. they just need to set their subwarp speed to max.

Lady Karma
Posted - 2009.11.21 06:04:00 - [1446]
 

Originally by: Eheufaucan
Or I spend that month on training Minmar BS to 5 because most of the Minmar caps can now speedtank Caldari Dreads without a single speed mod. they just need to set their subwarp speed to max.


Sweet, Minmatar got their speed tank back...just in an unexpected area

Luna Negra
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.21 06:22:00 - [1447]
 

CCP you could at least:

- Give MotherShips the HP buff (to survive over 2 Titan "deathrays")
- Increase the jump distance to the same as dreads (can be used to support dread fleets after that)

I am flying my second MS in EVE and not satisfied if i need to stay inside POS for another 6 months. With these changes at least i can use it like a carrier...

III LightBringer
The Treehugger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.21 06:27:00 - [1448]
 

Originally by: Kuzim Blaky'all
Edited by: Kuzim Blaky''all on 21/11/2009 04:44:11
Yo momma ship be all shes worth
since a day a dawg momma ship firs give birth
she ain lose she value, she still worth a bunch
even tho da ccp posse almost cost crunch
the value, teh cost, the thins what go in
when a dawg be a momma ship makin'

but ain no word on bufin up re-re crew
since ccp posse gave a dawg salvager 2
all a dawg need to make him chill
is bad dawgs to pay they silence tax bill

but dawg, somtims someone be flying big boat
an top dawgs, in they ship, be mad as a goat
when a posse, be a viking, cant figure out
what a dawg do, it makes payin dawgs shout
so dig it dawg, i jus got a message:
when a senate make a bill, a dawg commit to its passage
when da posse who pay
an play
all the day
an a bigger dawg say
ok
to him death ray
an all dawgs else, who had time to test
say "Dawg dig it, all da work you do? is da best!"
jus let it happen, water under a bridge
we be chill again in no time
like we be in a frige

in short dawg, make da reaper touff

49,1455 word up


even this makes more sense than nozh's blog.

Strabo44
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.21 06:49:00 - [1449]
 

Originally by: John MacCoy
Edited by: John MacCoy on 21/11/2009 04:25:10
Cancel Dominion.

There I said it.

This whole thing is a shambles. You dont have a clue what you're doing anymore. You had changes that everyone loved and because everyone loved them you thought something was wrong therefore they had to be changed. You then realised that everyone hated the newer changes so you then made even more changes that everyone hated. Now everyone is really p****d so you decide to reverse all changes to one thing and completely mess up the other changes to something that resembles the defence of luxemburg in World War Two.

Anyone else seeing this?

Come on CCP, listen to us, Please. We are the players. We play the game. We know how is it to be played. We know what makes us happy and what really sucks. Is it really that hard to listen to the people that basically pay you? Come on!

Page 49
Post 1454


Wow, agreeing with an atlas guy now.

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:02:00 - [1450]
 

Originally by: John MacCoy
Edited by: John MacCoy on 21/11/2009 04:25:10
Cancel Dominion.

There I said it.

This whole thing is a shambles. You dont have a clue what you're doing anymore. You had changes that everyone loved and because everyone loved them you thought something was wrong therefore they had to be changed. You then realised that everyone hated the newer changes so you then made even more changes that everyone hated. Now everyone is really p****d so you decide to reverse all changes to one thing and completely mess up the other changes to something that resembles the defence of luxemburg in World War Two.

Anyone else seeing this?

Come on CCP, listen to us, Please. We are the players. We play the game. We know how is it to be played. We know what makes us happy and what really sucks. Is it really that hard to listen to the people that basically pay you? Come on!

Page 49
Post 1454


I endorse that message..except it was only post 1441 now. What gives?

Merlay Alesek
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:03:00 - [1451]
 

Edited by: Merlay Alesek on 21/11/2009 07:11:24
Ok, so the capital battlefield. How should it look? Just some idea about what could be done. :)

Dreadnaughts = Anti-Structure. It should suck against anything else basically. Meaning more or less no damage in sieged mode to moving ships.

Carriers = Smaller fleet support hub. Central ships in capital warfare. Gives fleet bonuses, remote repair, fighters for both subcapital and capital support/dps. Very good as is.

Combat Carriers/Supercarriers/Tier 3 Carrier = A smaller anti capital specialized ship. Bigger and meaner than the carrier, but not nearly as good as the titan. This should be terrible against subcapital ships. (replaces current mothership/supercarrier graphics). This ship should be able to dock, but not have remote repair abilties or massive EHP.

Motherships = Fleet hubs. A new ship graphic design. Clone Vat, Jump Bridge, ECM Burst, fleet bonuses, maintanance deck, ship docking, very long range jump drive/fleet jumping. Something like this. Give people the option to pick either supercarrier or mothership for current mothership pilots. New skill for this ship. Not very dps oriented, but almost required/fantastic asset for large fleets.

Titans = Anti-capital capital ship. This monster destroys capital ships efficiently. Great doomsday and great dps against capships, terrible against subcapital. No jump bridge or clone vat bay.

Possibly: Not have supercarriers at all, but make battleships fill that role. Since no capital ships will be usefull against battleships anymore (with this idea), except normal carriers this would work great too. And no need to make a new ship design. :P
Link removed.Applebabe

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:12:00 - [1452]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer

Stuff

Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer


We appreciate you replying.

However if the blog was a collaboration of a team, how could they possibly miss that you can't target pain supercaps and sieged Dreadnoughts. Surely someone on the team should have caught that.

Additionally Nozh states no changes to MOMs yet on SiSi they got the hp buff and jump range buff still but lost the other stuff, is that intended? Is that what we'll see in 2 weeks?

Why would this team revert the Nag back to its nerf status after it was unnerfed just a few months ago? The changing of its bonuses has you have them is counterproductive and leads to a ship with less damage potential than the other dreads. Why is it the race that requires the most training for their dread would have the least powerful one?

That's what you are missing in your balance equations I think. You should sit down and figure out using the recommended certificates for a ships use the training time considered minimum for competency of the various ships and then use that information in determining balance.

You limit your expansion potential by stating that every new ship class or ship must have a special niche. I suppose it helps with the engine and lag by limiting how many models have to be loaded but at the same time it limits expansion potential and leads to the many ship classes where we only have 1 ship in a class.

What made the mothership to powerful?

I know of no one that would use DCU on a mothership, so lets ignore that first. Was DPS still a problem? If so readjust it lower?

Was the problem it had to much of a tank, remove some hp, or lower its resists, or remove a low or medium slot.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:16:00 - [1453]
 

I was kinda liking the new Super Carrier. Even though it was just a big carrier.

Dhanni Kerns
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:27:00 - [1454]
 

Originally by: Kanatta Jing
I was kinda liking the new Super Carrier. Even though it was just a big carrier.


Yeah, the SUPERcarrier gave me a stiffy, but this new stuff...meh

S'T'A'L'K'E'R
Pirate Academy
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:29:00 - [1455]
 

Originally by: John MacCoy
Edited by: John MacCoy on 21/11/2009 04:25:10
Cancel Dominion.

There I said it.

This whole thing is a shambles. You dont have a clue what you're doing anymore. You had changes that everyone loved and because everyone loved them you thought something was wrong therefore they had to be changed. You then realised that everyone hated the newer changes so you then made even more changes that everyone hated. Now everyone is really p****d so you decide to reverse all changes to one thing and completely mess up the other changes to something that resembles the defence of luxemburg in World War Two.

Dominion in 1st Dec is OK - new planets is ready, new sov system is ready too (i hope). Just cancel all capital changes, work at them and put it on TQ later - with New Eden stuff for example. Presented capital rebalance is clueless crap.

Dhanni Kerns
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:34:00 - [1456]
 

Edited by: Dhanni Kerns on 21/11/2009 07:47:19


CCP did nail the new mail interface, browser and planets though. The Sov system looks promising, but everything else is iffy, so I would err on the side of caution for everything else. kkthx

post 1457

Jonathan Priest
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:50:00 - [1457]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


Well, that's at least an explanation about what happened to motherships. The original changes would have been cool because they would have allowed alliances to take much bigger risks (and possibly lead to epic and decisive fights) by committing supercaps, but this won't make 0.0 warfare any worse at least. This was handled poorly though.

What about the changes to capital missiles and the naglfar? Have you looked at the effect split weapons have on damage with X damage mods fit vs single weapon dreads with X damage mods fit? Have you looked at capital missile damage against motherships, carriers, dreads and even titans when in siege?

Originally by: Eheufaucan

Damage reduction because of the high eploxions radius:

Naglfar 27%
Revelation 24%
Moros 23%
Phoenix 21%

Damage reduction because of the slow explosion velocity:
(numbers in brackets are the damage reduction if the ship uses a T2 100mn AB and a T2 Overdrive)

Ragnarok 18% (33%)
Erebus 2%
Avatar full damage (10%)
Leviathan full damage (5%)

Hel 36% (51%)
Nyx 26%
Aeon 15%
Wyvern 11%

Nidhoggur 85% (89%)
Thanatos 81%
Archon 81%
Chimera 78%



The AB thing probably won't happen because it only helps against the weaker two dreads, but still; If this is how it goes live I suppose its a good thing I'm training amarr...

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2009.11.21 07:56:00 - [1458]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Stuff...


I believe the problem, bigger than any gameplay issues, is that the "Why" of these changes has not yet been fully explained and the "What" left people upset over perceived ignorance (a la, TP'ing a sieged Dread). Also, while I'm sure it was unintended, Nozh's posts were off-target in that they seldom directly answered the most common questions. Instead, they attempted to explain the "Why" using examples already cited in the "What" (problematic considering people's reactions the first time through).

We all know that Eve players are extremely detail oriented. Unfortunately for CCP, that means a generic glossed over answer will only annoy the masses. It also means you'll have people picking over every detail and number, verifying them and testing alternate conditions. Instead of being given some basic concrete numbers, fluff answers were given. When actual information arrived, it was not an apples to apples comparison and it comprised of seemingly impractical real-life applications as dictated by current use. No explanation was giving for what appeared to be glaring errors in the data.

If the Devs felt that the previously tested changes were not acceptable for the current / future vision of Eve, that's fine. Detailed communication prior to the massive revisions that occurred recently would have eliminated some of the frustration. People would still have strong opinions of the new changes, but some of the vitriol would be missing, I believe.

In sum, a lack of communication (in the areas of timing, frequency, and depth of information) have made a bad situation significantly worse. Communication always seems to be the hardest thing to get right and among the easiest of things to screw up. Unfortunately, players feel they've experienced much of the latter and very little, if any, of the former.

PS: Please fix the Nag, I don't want to train Amarr. Very Happy

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.21 08:09:00 - [1459]
 

Quote:

How can you allow system development to so substantially go off the rails as to have to admit failure and start again? Who is going to be held accopuntable for these horrendous misjudgments and pay the price?



You answered yourself.

If this was Blizzard with LolKalgan or Mythic with that other idiot whose name does not deserve to ever be mentioned or SOE, they'd stick to their ill tracks and would *anyway* implement their garbage.

CCP are capable to admit they borked it hard.


Quote:

Hmmm...Where did it go wrong? I think a "Hey guys, thanks for all the months of testing, but we just aren't happy with where we're heading" post, which hopefully contained "since we're unhappy, we're going in some new directions on Sisi, but don't freak, these aren't getting tossed into Dominion at the last moment" would have greatly eased tensions.



I think somewhere around the road, EvE team got asked to act with the DUST team (or the EvE programmers are put on DUST and others had to replace them to fill in the "hole") but without giving the former any time to actually prepare a good expansion.
So they are hastily tossing out what they come up in the little time they have to spare. Basically the story of my life.


Quote:

So i get the ship building, get a load of pimp mods etc for it.



You made the same mistake 95% of the RL traders do and then lose lots of money: you did not have patience to wait and gambled. And lost.

And now blame a third party (CCP) for your lack of prudence.

They borked it hard, you borked it hard.


Quote:

PS: Please fix the Nag, I don't want to train Amarr.



THIS

I am stuffed to be told "LOL you just had to not train an inferior race".

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2009.11.21 08:30:00 - [1460]
 

Would it be possible to just have skill called "Citadel launchers" which covers both Citadel torpedoes and cruises? If you go ahead with these changes you'll force another 1 month train on phoenix and naglfar pilots. Talk about kicking people who are down already. Laughing

And save Naglfar.

Quadratko
Posted - 2009.11.21 08:35:00 - [1461]
 

Edited by: Quadratko on 21/11/2009 08:37:27
Edited by: Quadratko on 21/11/2009 08:36:26
Quote:
In siege mode it's reduced to 12m/s and in my opinion thats a bigger problem than the high explosion radius.


The very big problem is explosion veloсity equals 12 m/s.
For example every sprinter can to overtake it.

The problem is what CCP has going to sink with their's theoretical gameplay models without any practical and natural mechanics.

Holy Cheater
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.11.21 08:48:00 - [1462]
 

Yeah, let players sit in this undockable useless 15bn crap which can be blown up by a single titan for another year. A very intelligent design decision.

Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:05:00 - [1463]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
Originally by: Ghuarran
Quote:
First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


I respect your position, I really do. But it's kind of disturbing that such a director could publish changes as sweeping as this, referencing mechanics that simply do not work in game, and have the team not notice or care. Surely a team of developers would notice that you cannot target paint supercaps, or seiged dreadnaughts. Shouldn't that thing have been caught?


If there is one thing I've learned about CCP, it's that they have very little regard for how the game actually works. Instead, they have a fantasy in their head about how they think it should work, and they project that fantasy on to the player base that actually plays the game. In their mind, you should be using target painters, and they are going to balance with that in mind.

That's a great way of putting it.

First, thank you Hammer for your response. It helps to know you're watching. Now, all there is left for you, is for you guys to start answering questions, and making sense. Mothership buffs were one of the ways you were selling this patch. Please don't allow them to stay useless for more months and years. Their role as anticapital killers is about as good as it will get. They would be very diverse, powerful, and a great tool that would actually be used in sov warfare.

Also, we need to know why the Phoenix is being balanced around target painters, which do not work in normal capital battles. Also, we need to know why the Naglfar is being nerfed so soon after its recent buff which made it attractive. Is this a "lol you didn't just train Naglfar did you? Because we're nerfing it again" troll?

Julio Torres
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:05:00 - [1464]
 

Thank you Hammer for posting a serious reply.

But I still want to see the issue with Titan's being addressed.
Our ships is still completely useless. While the original ideas
for Titan's stated for them to be on the front line, the last changes
to us took away all incentives to do anything beside sitting in a POS
doing Jump Bridges. And occasionally gank a Jump Freighter on a hostile
Cyno Gen Array.

With the new changes, nano-fit is still the way to go for a Titan.

Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:13:00 - [1465]
 

CCP Nozh' comment at the Pandemic Legion killboard about a recent Titan takedown:

"I trust the Naglfars made use of their Target Painters and this battle happened at long range."

If this comment was really done by him at least he has some kind of humor.

Jaron Terrkin
ZERO T0LERANCE
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:18:00 - [1466]
 

Just release the HP boost and the jumprange boost and everybody will be satisfied till u work that Fighterbomberstuff out.So we are at least able to use our ships.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:46:00 - [1467]
 

Yeah, i think ppl will be happy as long as they get their hp upped on motherships. Just also give the titans 200%/level damage so that its actually going to be used for something until you find a real role for them... Dont see the hurt in that, since everyones exited about titan takedowns and youll only see that if the titans come in to play...

stylo11
Gallente
KANTAI HIKAGE
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:54:00 - [1468]
 

Edited by: stylo11 on 21/11/2009 09:54:19
Why should i buy a ship, that i spend billions and billions on for a nice fitting be able to be 1 shotted (litterly) by a titan, who just as to push 1 button.

The hp bonous, if nothing else was something that the supercarrier needs

Zaiyo Modi
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.21 10:05:00 - [1469]
 

Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 21/11/2009 13:55:26
*deleted*

Ahaha, I've chilled abit. And I have since made a better post.

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.21 10:06:00 - [1470]
 

Edited by: Max Hardcase on 21/11/2009 10:08:12
If they we're so worried about the Naglfar, why couldnt they have left the 7.5% RoF bonus and give it a falloff or rep cap use bonus?
Split weapons only work if we have the option of fitting a slightly higher amount of weapons than is normal for the class ( see the Typhoon ) this is not the case with the Naglfar so lay off on these changes.



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