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White Aero
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:13:00 - [1411]
 

Originally by: Kraken Kill
CURRENTLY on SISI Motherships STILL retain the HP BUFF and INCREASE JUMP RANGE. They Currenly have the OLD STYLE Bonuses (vat bay, triage, gang mods, remote rep bonus hel).

When you say you wont be doing ANY changes to motherships do you mean you wont be changing the bonuses but the Ships will still retain the Jump range and HP buff?

Please Confirm this? Please Clarify the poorly presented info in the blog.


ANSWER!!

Li Na
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:17:00 - [1412]
 

Holy crap CCP youv done something cool

on SISI right now for my nyx I can use 20 fighters but only launch 15 FBs due to BW restriction also according to ship details I no longer recieve my 5% bonus per lvl to bombers just fighters. CCP if this is true you might be on your way to redeeming yourself

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:19:00 - [1413]
 

Wow CCP, you guys really fixed moms... I understand you want to rework them, and have run out of time. Okay got it. But reverting to no change at all while continuing with the other dominion changes you have just made motherships unusable. Titan changes specifically will for sure keep mothership's logged off and hugging poses. The threat of Titan hotdropping and instapopping a mothership is too much risk for these ships and their pilots to be used.

Please move forward with at least the HP Buff at a minimum, otherwise you'll be condemning these ships to remain logged off until whatever changes are eventually implemented. On another note, when should we expect to hear or begin our input on the Dominion Motherships v3.0?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:21:00 - [1414]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 21/11/2009 02:23:24
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone

We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.

(..)

The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. (..)


Thanks for your reply Hammer.

It's good to see some explanation, even though it's not in-depth, but it gives us an idea of what your thoughts and motivations have been.

I'd like to comment again on both the mothership (non-)change and Sisi.

While I do understand your reasons for not changing the motherships until a future patch, I think it's a bit of a harsh decision.
This is due to two reasons:
  1. Titans do get changed. The new doomsday weapon threatens motherships, and the hp boost is what motherships would need to counter that threat.

  2. You already told players in a devblog how motherships were supposed to get changed.

Point 2 is also something I'd like to point out with regard to Sisi.
Of course no change on Sisi is final or can be relied upon. It's the Test-server for a reason and any changes there might just be a crazy idea some dev wants to evaluate with player-feedback (although you got to admit it usually is kind of the final step for design and test iteration..).

But what about devblogs?
If you publish a devblog and say "this is what we're going to do", isn't that much more than some test-runs on Sisi?
I'm not 100% sure, but have arenas and storefronts ever been points in a devblog which covered changes of a comming patch?

This is what bothers me a bit.
You announced changes to motherships, well actually one could say you promised them, as mothership pilots were longing for a boost or change that made their ships more useful or important, and now you're about to leave them out in the rain.

I suggested earlier to give them at least half the planned hp boost, since I believe that a hp boost is what motherships need and should be receiving anyway, sooner or later. Those are supercapitals after all. And half of it to make sure it's not too much.
If you previously considered the planned changes to be ok, half of one aspect of the change, basically a passive and defensive change, shouldn't be game-breaking. Even 1/3 would be something.
Please also note that I don't own a mothership. It's not my personal agenda. I just think you owe them.

Of course it would only be a transitional solution and as such questionable. It might even worry mothership pilots, as they might fear you could forget about them and not follow up on that temporary change.
But that's something which can be easily avoided by simply not forgetting and keeping up the communication Wink

ace togge
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:22:00 - [1415]
 

Soon we will see the Starwars Galaxies effect :)

Seriously.

Misaki Yuuko
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:30:00 - [1416]
 

Edited by: Misaki Yuuko on 21/11/2009 02:30:45
Hey hey, this explains a lot:

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/features/revelations2/vid-ivar.swf

Goddamnit, oh the irony.

(IBF Ban/Delete/Whatever).

Lira Reib
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:35:00 - [1417]
 

Edited by: Lira Reib on 21/11/2009 02:37:48
Originally by: CCP Hammer
First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


I'm down with not vilifying nozh, but the fact is the words "target painters" are in a dev blog about capitals. Somebody needs to be vilified, and if it's the entire capital team I'm pretty sure we can adapt.

Quote:
We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


Whatever the vision for motherships is, I'd like to recommend that you add "Making the customers happy" to it, since the direction things are going right now is short on that. You can apply this to capitals, too; phoenix and nag are NOT crying out for a nerf at this point in time.

Li Na
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:39:00 - [1418]
 

Hey if these changes you have implemented on the MSs stays you have won me back from all my hate now just bring the Titans back to where they were put the Nag back the way it was and give us our improved AFs

Dream Raven
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:41:00 - [1419]
 

Originally by: Misaki Yuuko
Edited by: Misaki Yuuko on 21/11/2009 02:30:45
Hey hey, this explains a lot:

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/features/revelations2/vid-ivar.swf

Goddamnit, oh the irony.

(IBF Ban/Delete/Whatever).

He doesn't look like a capital pilot at all. No neckbeard or anything.

Kruzenshtern
Aeria Gloris Inc
UN1CUM
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:42:00 - [1420]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger.


We would appreciate if you choose a better messenger, so he wouldn't have to get shot at. Better as in:

- actually answering the relevant questions, instead of going out and about the issue. No is a good answer sometimes, but spending multiple dozens of lines on various capital redesign issues and exactly zero on MS/SC in the thread burning with MS/SC questions is not a good move
- having an actual idea about how game mechanic works (painters vs dreads, etc), OR patiently and explicitly explaining to us why our knowledge is useless. Yes we can theorize that perhaps the mighty devs can suddenly make painters work on sieged dreads. Then tell us so, and be done with it. Otherwise you are putting fires out with gasoline, and making your messenger look stupid in the process.

TL;DR version: if you want to explain - EXPLAIN. Ditch those slimy PR methods.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:43:00 - [1421]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 21/11/2009 02:43:59
Originally by: Li Na
Why not instead of a damage bonus for the titans DD per level make it a time reduction for refire rate or activation time. Make them train for the extra refire rate speed its not like it needs more damage.

This is an interesting idea and would probably make doomsday weapons easier to balance.
However it would decrease the incentive to train the skill up to maximum. So it's not a perfect concept.

Imho I've been throwing ideas around in my head of 2 DDs being required to kill a capital ship. A single DD would/should then only severely damage it.
- It would encourage timing and co-ordination of titans. Requiring more than simply pressing a button is always a good thing.
- It would also discourage and to a certain degree prevent solo-DD-drive-bys.
- It would allow titan capital turrets to be boosted as previously planned.

The first two points would be an issue if titans were rare. Since there are so many ingame, it certainly isn't an issue.
However it's hard to achieve since capital effective hp differ so heavily.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:50:00 - [1422]
 

Quotation removed.Applebabe

I would delete your post simply because of that.

I'm perfectly fine with forum mods doing their job btw. Some of the crap which gets posted here isn't worth the hard-drive space it occupies.
If you feel masochistic enough and want to read it all up, go to EVE-Search.

Li Na
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:51:00 - [1423]
 

Ok maybe they are not 100% fixed in SISI FBs do 0 damage to just about everything

Cha chingk
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:51:00 - [1424]
 

Will let subscription expire, which will be after Dominion. Good luck getting me to change my mind.Sad (Used to love EVE, the changes and CCCP customer service skills burns my stomach.)

Kynah
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:57:00 - [1425]
 

Reading all these posts, makes me wonder one little thing. How can a company survive when it goes out its way to alientate its customner base?

How can you allow system development to so substantially go off the rails as to have to admit failure and start again? Who is going to be held accopuntable for these horrendous misjudgments and pay the price?

It is now obvious why CCP's homeland got into so much difficulty; arrogance mixed with incompetence and ignorance will only sustain you for so long.

Nimrias
Gallente
Atropos Asylum
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:01:00 - [1426]
 

Edited by: Nimrias on 21/11/2009 03:05:42
I hate poasting, and I'm trying to be constructive here, but you just don't get it CCP. This isn't going to be a long, crazy rant.

Where did this all go wrong?
1. Changing MOMs on Sisi that had been tested and tested and tested without so much as a "hey, we're trying something new with MOMs" post. A player noticed and posted first. Shameful!

2. Once said thread got fully underway, Nozh popped in for a "yeah, we changed 'em all right" post. No explanation, just "yep, they've changed". CCP Hammerhead says that they weren't happy with the direction the MOM changes were going. Well, that was news to all those fools that logged into Sisi to help test the MOM -> SC changes.

3. Later, Nozh comes back into said thread with "tested changes are gone, nutty thrown-in-at-the-last-minute changes are gone, but HEY, YOU CAN DOCK MOMS AND THEY COST LESS TO BUILD NOW! (SURPRISE!)".

Hmmm...Where did it go wrong? I think a "Hey guys, thanks for all the months of testing, but we just aren't happy with where we're heading" post, which hopefully contained "since we're unhappy, we're going in some new directions on Sisi, but don't freak, these aren't getting tossed into Dominion at the last moment" would have greatly eased tensions.

Please! Learn from this CCP! Learn! I'm tired of all the damn posting required to get your attention about silly things that should have been addressed right the first time, not after hundreds and hundreds of forum posts.

-Nim

Sajeera
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:01:00 - [1427]
 

Edited by: Sajeera on 21/11/2009 03:01:58
Edited by: Sajeera on 21/11/2009 03:01:46
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Quotation removed.Applebabe

I would delete your post simply because of that.

I'm perfectly fine with forum mods doing their job btw. Some of the crap which gets posted here isn't worth the hard-drive space it occupies.
If you feel masochistic enough and want to read it all up, go to EVE-Search.


Actually you cant read it on eve-search too. For some reason today eve-search started to make its updates with around 30-40 mins delay aswell as failing to retrieve many of the posts.
Either CCP blocked or delayed the updates which eve-search makes, or they just made Chribba "an offer he cant refuse".

And yes i posted this before and it got deleted.

[1438]

Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:08:00 - [1428]
 

Originally by: Kynah

How can you allow system development to so substantially go off the rails as to have to admit failure and start again? Who is going to be held accopuntable for these horrendous misjudgments and pay the price?



If CCP would admit failure and start over on dominion, they'd be a lot better off. Most of the problems stem from throwing out many of the original ideas behind dominion without compensating for it. All of the titan, mothership, capital, sov, 0.0 economic changes are intertwined. As they've abandoned bits and pieces of each, there has been no modification to other changes that rely on them.

Leaving motherships the way they are makes the modified titans ridiculous and motherships worthless. Leaving titans the way they are now retains the AOE doomsday which is both the bane of all subcap pilots, and are likely made worse when sov fights are moved onto gates.

Dominion is not a few independent changes, it is an interconnected, interdependent web. Each bit directly affects the others. Each one they've thrown out has created numerous other issues that have been ignored.


Li Na
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:15:00 - [1429]
 

For those of you who have not been paying attention they have just released a new patch for SISI with completly new MS changes perhapes you should check them out before continuing the rants.

Promethian child
Amarr
0utbreak
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:18:00 - [1430]
 

Originally by: Li Na
For those of you who have not been paying attention they have just released a new patch for SISI with completly new MS changes perhapes you should check them out before continuing the rants.



Wut ? for once CCP took notice of a 48 page + deleted posts threadnought Shocked

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:25:00 - [1431]
 

Ok checked out the changes on Sisi- From what ive heard the fighter bombers still need target painting to do damage.
The Phoenix still sufferes massively with the explo radius of cruise and torps requiring target painting..........
The nag is still nerfed to the stoneage.
The titan is still ineffective other than to jump bridge.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:33:00 - [1432]
 

Edited by: Vadinho on 21/11/2009 03:34:08
Originally by: Kraken Kill
Ok checked out the changes on Sisi- From what ive heard the fighter bombers still need target painting to do damage.
The Phoenix still sufferes massively with the explo radius of cruise and torps requiring target painting..........
The nag is still nerfed to the stoneage.
The titan is still ineffective other than to jump bridge.
baby steps, kraken, if theyre willing to hear us out on this maybe theyll come to their senses and give the citadel missiles not-awful blast radii and hand back the naglfar's not-awful bonuses

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

edit: re-linking kraken kill's post from earlier so you can print it out and use a magnet to affix it to the dev team's whiteboard hth =D

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:39:00 - [1433]
 

Originally by: Li Na
For those of you who have not been paying attention they have just released a new patch for SISI with completly new MS changes perhapes you should check them out before continuing the rants.


You mean they changed stuff without mentioning it in this here thread devoted to that exact stuff? Well, I am surprised.

Sajeera
Posted - 2009.11.21 03:40:00 - [1434]
 

Originally by: Kraken Kill
Ok checked out the changes on Sisi- From what ive heard the fighter bombers still need target painting to do damage.
The Phoenix still sufferes massively with the explo radius of cruise and torps requiring target painting..........
The nag is still nerfed to the stoneage.
The titan is still ineffective other than to jump bridge.


There will be no fighter bombers dude. They said they are reverting all the changes, at the moment motherships on SiSi are the same from TQ just with buffed HPs and jump range.

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:04:00 - [1435]
 

Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Kraken Kill
Ok checked out the changes on Sisi- From what ive heard the fighter bombers still need target painting to do damage.
The Phoenix still sufferes massively with the explo radius of cruise and torps requiring target painting..........
The nag is still nerfed to the stoneage.
The titan is still ineffective other than to jump bridge.


There will be no fighter bombers dude. They said they are reverting all the changes, at the moment motherships on SiSi are the same from TQ just with buffed HPs and jump range.


Someone Posted that they had 20 fighters usable and 15 bombers useable? are you saying this isnt the case? I cant test myself as my mothership pilot is banned on sisi...


Ive just about lost sight about what all this crazyness is about, I have to go back to the start to remind myself that im not just some whiner upset about his new mothership getting spoilt.

Come- lets go back to the beginning.

So here I am, I have a bunch of money. I think well I can start heading down the path of Titan I guess- motherships are so useless that i wont bother with those. So i start selling my crap etc. Kraken is pretty good in carriers right now with skills and my alt is getting ever closer to titan skills, wouldnt be the best titan but getting closer. My isk is some distance from a titan though.

I hear about these changes- Wham! Fighter bombers? 9k dps? HP boost? ooooh! So i think ok- No titan, ill get a mothership for kraken, hm what do i need for this, ill need an alt to baby sit the ship so i get one on another account thats just about ready to fly it now (needs the carrier skill book which ive been - understandably holding off buying...)...

So Right now Im under the impression- as there is an ACTUAL DEV BLOG WITH PICTURES AND EVERYTHING that there will be bombers, and the ship is an anti capital ship and x/y/z...

So i get the ship building, get a load of pimp mods etc for it.
Then after all the testing and not only me but MANY MANY in my alliance building these ships we suddenly hear and notice -

why do the supercarriers only get 1 fighter per level? is it a bug? did the do something wrong and mix up carrier stats into them?

Silence then, how long was it for again?

then OMGWTFPWN happened. You planned to reduce the build price. so wait- all those people cooking these ships- instanly lose 10billion? what sort of terrible planning was that? seriously? Did you not think people would be so mad?

Then OMGWTFPWN mk2 happened. You planned to let them dock- right after you mentioned that stations WOULD be tied into holding Sov (even after you said they wouldnt be originally) so this ment that EPIC ON A SCALE NEVER BEFORE SEEN docking games would take place. Again what did you think the player base would say about this?

Ok. So what do we have now? we have people who had been spending 16B on these ships being told-

You get 10 fighters like carriers, you can dock and your ship lost 10b in value.

Then you backpedled away from this. You said Oh wait! you can have 15 drones, arnt you lucky! well 15 drones if you use drone control units LOL ok- FINE DAMN WHY DO YOU WHINE SO MUCH, 15 drones base and 20 with drone control units. Wowee! 16b tier 2 carriers able to use 5 extra drones from regular carriers! wowee!
You then made the fighterbombers prettttttttty useless. you suggested 3600 explosion radius? You stupid? You then realised yes you were stupid, reduced it to 3200. At 3200 its still stupid. it needs to be 1500 or less.

Then you went on a rampage. You made it seem like the playerbase was ungreatful for these changes you were offering.

You should have kept the original idea Many people said that having 15 fighterbombers but 20 drones was fine, just balance the damage of the 15 bombers to do at least 2 dreads worth of damage WITHOUT needing 3 target painters.

So When I realise this, Im reminded that the players have done nothing wrong at all and their 'whines' are more than justified.

S'T'A'L'K'E'R
Pirate Academy
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:09:00 - [1436]
 

Reset all Dreadnought's changes! It is just NOT READY for TQ.

Sajeera
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:13:00 - [1437]
 

Right from the dev blog:
This means NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED

Li Na
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:18:00 - [1438]
 

I have personally seen 20 fighters 15 bombers. However micro torps seem to be missing the exp velocity attribute causing them to do 0 damage to everything jump range is 11.25 with max skills 7,500 Mbit/sec is the bandwidth limit FBs use 500 Mbit/sec but like I said at this time do no damage its a great step in the right direction. I am not a fan of the NAG but changing it back to worse than the way it was is not the answer. Make a compromise with the titans go 150% instead of the full blown 200% or make it a % per lvl of titan not a role bonus incentive to train to lvl 5. Reward players for time spent training.

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:23:00 - [1439]
 

what CCP say or what they dont Say and What happens are several different things.

This Dev blog is a load of nonsense. I expect some mothership change will occur based on the games membership forcing it through. The HP buff and Jump range going through is a Change. These will happen even though the Blog says otherwise.

If they dont happen- Simply- people will leave the game and attention would be brought to CCP from outside the game and a lot of negative press would arrive.

The last few blogs and Dev responses have all been a load of nonsense and changes completely different to what they have writen have come about. The original blog - Trashed.

The post about the 10 fighters? Trashed.
The post about the 6B build cost? Trashed.
The Post about bombers with 3600 explo radius? Trashed.
The post about bombers with 3200 Explo radius? Trashed.
The Post about 15 drones? Trashed.
The Post about Super Carriers docking? Trashed.

I dont believe what I read from CCP anymore. They will impliment changes to supercarriers/motherships in this dominion patch because logic says so and the playerbase says so. the TQ version of Motherships is not compatable with the Sisi Version of Titans.

John MacCoy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.21 04:24:00 - [1440]
 

Edited by: John MacCoy on 21/11/2009 04:25:10
Cancel Dominion.

There I said it.

This whole thing is a shambles. You dont have a clue what you're doing anymore. You had changes that everyone loved and because everyone loved them you thought something was wrong therefore they had to be changed. You then realised that everyone hated the newer changes so you then made even more changes that everyone hated. Now everyone is really p****d so you decide to reverse all changes to one thing and completely mess up the other changes to something that resembles the defence of luxemburg in World War Two.

Anyone else seeing this?

Come on CCP, listen to us, Please. We are the players. We play the game. We know how is it to be played. We know what makes us happy and what really sucks. Is it really that hard to listen to the people that basically pay you? Come on!

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