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mwarp out
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:16:00 - [1321]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer


So, in other words, you do not understand capital ships either?
* Carriers are the main repair boat. It dies against other caps/BS when ECM'd. It can then triage, but against to much DPS it still dies. It is very useful for personal logistics.
* Dreads are the main fist of all empires. It is useless on an individual basis. It is the bane of towers and other caps. Can be used against battleships if your side control the field.
* Motherships, if they got the extra HP and some high damage drones and dish out 6-8k DPS against cap ships would be the counter to a dread fleet. Currently, the only thing to counter a dread fleet, is a larger dread fleet. If the bomber-drones could not be handed out to other ships I would have no issue with. That the MOM only had Bandwidth for 10 drones doing 600-800dps each would be fine. (less lag, more expensive drones)
* Titans where the bane of all fun when 3 or more where in play under a jammer. The AOE DD where removed, and replaced with something that will kill an unchanged MOM in a heartbeat.

Now, these Motherships with the 8k DPS, attacking a Dreadfleet... what happen to their DPS if the dreads are supported by hounds? DPS go to 0. What happens to the motherships when they are bubbled and a dread fleet shoots them? they die. What counters that the dreads kill the MOMs? (Triage) carriers. And who would cry after sending 10 motherships after 30 hac's? The previous owner of the dead drones... thats who.


Also make it so that Motherships can not dock if they have a PeeVeePee timer (they have been shot, agressed them selves or tried to warp out of a bubble in the last 15 min, like the logout thing) to fix the undock-games issue.

Ragel Tropxe
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:18:00 - [1322]
 

just remove ALL of the capital changes from Dominion. If you go ahead with any of them in isolation youre creating a trainwreck waiting to happen,

Spend time working with the playerbase to determine roles for all Capital class ships and then balance around that.

All youre doing at the moment is rolling out changes in seemingly random, uncoordinated manner. Youre being reactive to balance issues whihc are cropping up by making further changes "on the fly" - which in turn are giving you even more balance issues.

as an example - the changes to Dread weapons started because you made Titans into "super Dreads" and then realised that they would then pwn sub cap fleets - I think this is what causes them anyway. Actually I suspect that you guys have forgotten what the reason for changing them is.

Golden rule - if youre in a hole - STOP DIGGING.

PAUSE
REFLECT
CONSULT
PLAN
IMPLEMENT
REVIEW

its not hard

Ker HarSol
Minmatar
Zip - I
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:19:00 - [1323]
 

Edited by: Ker HarSol on 20/11/2009 23:20:41
I tell you, this will end pretty badly.


Also: how the **** can you release half the supercapitals with the new bonus and half the supercapitals with the old bonus? Where is logic in that? Where is game balancing in that?

If you don't have time to balance the supercapitals then KEEP THEM AT THE CURRENT STATE!!

But just doing one half and the other half not it really idiotic.


This will end up soooo badly.

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:20:00 - [1324]
 

Edited by: Catari Taga on 20/11/2009 23:20:21

Discussing forum moderation is not allowed.Applebabe

Originally by: teji
Originally by: CCP Hammer
He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made.

There was no explanation as to why changes were made. References to target painters and dreads is not a reason, it's a troll.
Quote:
We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0.

That's news to most people here. Many thought the changes were quite fun. Referring to DCUs and supercarriers also not a reason for changes, it's also a troll.
Quote:
You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess.

Ah but you aren't. The Nag looks to be getting re-nerfed to uselessness. The titans will now destroy motherships in 2 hits without the hitpoint buff. Things are changing.
Quote:
Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.

The truest statement in your whole post.
Quote:
Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase.

State reasons and back up those reasons with facts. Anything else will generally enrage your playerbase.
That's exactly the point, noone expects stuff to hit TQ exactly like it was on SiSi, but you can't come in, involve players for months in discussions and actual tests and then throw it all out of the window without a single word in favor of some charts which don't even apply.

I don't even fly a Mom or a Nag but I'm just appalled by the way this is being handled. EVE is a game about long-term commitment, there is no other game which requires planning ahead for months or years even for things as basic as your skill training plan. What this has brought the game is a lot of dedicated and thus passionate players and there is probably no MMO out there with so many people paying for more than one account. If you don't understand that this part of dedication in the playerbase not only expects but requires a somewhat reliable outlook into which direction the game is going that is a sad thing.

You expect a player to dedicate months or even years of training time to fly a capital or supercapital ship and now you are making weekly changes without a clear direction (there was clear direction when CCP Abathur was leading the discussion which is why it was well received in the playerbase, it set a basis for the discussion). Current changes feel random and the devblog as well as your posts confirm that. Don't try to cover that fact up with shiny charts of half-truths that don't reflect any real situations on TQ (3 TP 5 DCU Moms) and by committing to haphazard changes (Nag nerf, Titans insta-popping moms) but take a step back, delay all the changes and discuss with the playerbase until you find a new and possibly better vision of where you want to take the endgame. By committing to half of the changes now forces you do balance everything around them unless you want to undo them later.

edit: [1341]

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:20:00 - [1325]
 

What's funny is they've clearly now admitted that they haven't reached their goal yet.

And we need to admit that its a much more complex problem than we're giving it enough credit for. If we took any number of supposed good ideas from this lol fest of a thread and broke it off into its own to have an intricate discussion about the proposed solution you would see as many people shooting it down as you would supporting it.

That being said, in agile software development like scrum, you are not supposed to ship until you've fulfilled your user stories. So they should be pushing this all back, not releasing half finished features.

Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:21:00 - [1326]
 

At least the Moros was put back to TQ values a while ago.

Right guys?

Guys?

ztrsfjgkc
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:21:00 - [1327]
 

So my question will it be possible to fight 3 or more titans effective, which warps in at 240 km and instapop some dreads, with this range and tracking changes if u get them bubbled or not? Because Phoenixes wonīt hit them anyway because of the ****ty range of the missls and naglfars only with the half dmg because they use 2 launchers aswell?

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:22:00 - [1328]
 

Originally by: mwarp out
Also make it so that Motherships can not dock if they have a PeeVeePee timer (they have been shot, agressed them selves or tried to warp out of a bubble in the last 15 min, like the logout thing) to fix the undock-games issue.
i personally like the idea of supercarrier docking being a destructible station service with comparatively low hp that can be added as an upgrade to player-built outposts

both of these are pretty good ideas that have been proposed before and id be happy with either one but hey lets just go back to the drawing board and worry about it in six months so we can disappoint our customers again thats a far more responsible attitude to take towards business

Da Maddness
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:23:00 - [1329]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0.


Personally I love how there are huge WTF ships in this game that deal out massive damage. Remember the sence of achevement and joy when the first titan was taken down or the "HOLY CRAP" everyone thinks when they read about a group of motherships being destroyed?

While having capital ships that destroy everything is fun for the cap ship pilot, having a group organised enough to take down those ships is by far much more fun.

Also we want fighter bombers!

Isil Rahsen
Gallente
Ferrum Superum
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:24:00 - [1330]
 

Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 20/11/2009 23:27:45
Originally by: Lucas Tigh
At least the Moros was put back to TQ values a while ago.

Right guys?

Guys?

Don't worry, a few days before it hits TQ they will slip in the nerf on it too. Capital weapon balance is all kinds of screwed up along with a bunch of dread nerfs.

mwarp out
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:25:00 - [1331]
 

Edited by: mwarp out on 20/11/2009 23:28:53
"We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers."

Some CCP dev:
Hey guys guys.. lets make a BIG ship able to shoot a DOOMSDAY through space to a frigate with a beacon on it?? COOL, ehh?


Anything shooting CITADEL TORPS will not instapopp the masses. It will never hit anything moving past a few hundred m/s. And the risk/reward for their use can be handled along with the cost of the fighter bombers. People will think twice about launching 500 million isk worth of drones when they know Cefte is around with a wing of stealth bombers.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:29:00 - [1332]
 

I think CCP needs to tell us why they didnt like the direction supercapitals were taking.

Most of us were loving the intial plans for them now because everyone get to use them. It wouldnt be fun for the few while the majority suffers, everyone would cheer at the chance of killing one, and at the same time dreaming about getting one for themselves. These ships would be on the field of both sides assisting ones sides. Having something in awe and wanting to get that gives you longterm paying customers...

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:29:00 - [1333]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 20/11/2009 23:39:15
Originally by: CCP Hammer
People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger.


"shooting the messenger" implies the person delivering the news has nothing to do with the news being delivered. This is absolutely not the case here.


Quote:
Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us.


Yet none of you ever expressed this concern. nor did you ever say "hey, we are concerned these ships might end up being too powerful and here's why. Thoughts/concerns/suggestions?". What happened was massive changes were suddenly thrown on SISI weeks before the set deployment date and then none of you bothered to mention a word for 2 days. And even then what was said was vague, short and full of pretty obvious misconceptions as far as how things work on TQ.

Quote:
They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0.


The thousands of what were going to be instapopped? If you were worried about F/B effectiveness against subcaps (mainly with rapier/huggin TP/web support), increase explosion velocity, but adjust damage so dps against dreads remains about the same. DPS against carriers/supercaps would go up, but as they could partially speedtank F/Bs anyways, this is NBD.


Quote:
So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You cut their price and damage in half, over double the explosion radius then made them dockable. Enormous changes that weren't thought through at all. That isn't "tuning".


Quote:
We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


So promise us to continue working on mom changes immediately after Dom is sucessfully put in and that you'll set your goal as having proper changes implemented in dominion 1.1. That isn't hard.


Quote:
So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


See my 2nd reply


Quote:
None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team.


Then maybe you should make playing the actual game mandatory. That way you wont have things like suggesting moms fit 5 DCUs to have effective DPS, or require multiple TPs to be effective against their primary target (which can't be TP'd 99% of the time, anyways), or letting them dock, something that was scoffed at by CCP staff at fanfest and by the vast majority of intelligent cap pilots as a terrible, terrible idea.

Quote:
None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase.


Obviously not, but the poor way some things are handled by your staff does a very good job of enraging us, regardless.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:32:00 - [1334]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.



ok so your idea is to have an insta poping ship call the titan and have it be able to kill all ships below it with minimum force most of the o.o holding alliance have 4-5 titans if not more so that 2 minute refire rate if there on the field at the same time it plus it has the capital weapons. yet the moms that had the hp and the tools to kill the titans are now being let go nice. to me the titan is a large dread now yes it is nice and shinny but it has the same role as a dread in that it is an anti capital ship and pos killer sure you can't use the dd on the pos but the capital modules make up for that.

with your statement you said it was a team that took the 20 fighters on sisi and droped them to 10 same as a carrier and you didn't think that was a blur till we started to point it out. why was there no post from ccp to say look we are not sure on the way the moms are going we would like to try a few new things we know its the 11th hour but we need you to test it and most of the problems would have been steamed out information is your best tool.

also was it the team that came up with the fact that capital fight are not close range. thus the changes to dreads.

ok if it is a team job as you state i now feel sorry for nozh he had it in the neck with the carrier change a few years ago and now as lead game designer you put him back in the firing line, man i glad i'm not him with a boss like you i would be suprized if he didn't go of with depression you all know he had done the dev blog for carriers and also posted twice on the 1st forum topic on this and them you make him do the dev blog man that nice. once believe working for ccp would be good not anymore.

to ccp hammer why not atlest give teh hp bonus at lest then we might field them on the field but with the titan dd being what it is no thank you.

JonnY JohnStone
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:32:00 - [1335]
 

Hrm, so what is Dominion gonna offer other than the silly new sov system. This was suppose to be the 0.0 overhaul patch i thought. You cant tell the players for 6 months that a ship is gonna have major change and then pull the plug 2 weeks before going live and not expect a little guff.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:33:00 - [1336]
 

Everyone quiet and stop the hate for 5 mins




Lets review ----

motherships are not being changed they are going to be like tq motherships atm.

-- not mentioned, CCP never said they werent getting an hp buff, you all are just assuming they wont. So shush, wait for them to give more details.

second,

-- This is not the place to rant about nag, moros, and phoenix, test server feed back is in a different forum.


third

Nozh is a messenger, so that means he drew the short straw when or lost a bet to the rest of the staff about announcing the changes. Nozh thank you for taking it in stride, you deserve a beer, especially after all the crap we have put you through.

4th

Hammer, you did a fairly good job of explaining everything, but when you answered many of the questions you left a lot more to be asked, you may want to make a long detailed dev blog about all the capital changes and why.

5th,

everyone stop posting for a while, its friday, go get a beer, drink a little bit and relax, calm down and come back to the forums and make some intelligent post.


Everyone, just needs to relax seriously. Our testing was not in vain, we just showed to them there might be several balancing issues that could result.

We have learned though from press releases and articles that show how much players care about their game.


CCP devs, thank you for taking the hate storm in stride, you guys do put up with a lot. It's just going to take some time for the anger to calm down and we can get on with the release of dominion.

Once again everyone stop the hate, let the devs and gms spend time working on dominion rather than be forum police.

-OH

Buxaroo
Gallente
The Army of The Ori
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:35:00 - [1337]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines

heya noah



I listened, did you?

You say you read the responses, but haven't addressed them. Why were the changes suggested to the Phoenix ignored? Why was the Nag rolled back to useless?

Why do you feel the supercaps were overpowered? overpowered, what the couple hundred of them? It's not like you're redefining a battleship, it's a ship that a very small percentage can get in.


You didn't make the mom overpowered, you gave it a purpose. You made it a cap killer. That is a shiptype the game has been lacking for years. You made it the combat flagship, and the titan was again the "oh crap" ship.


how was the previous iteration of the SC overpowered? And if so, in my opinion it would have been better to let Seleene's change go onto TQ and had "nerf SCs!" threads. You would have at least made a diffference, a baseline to work with in a live environment.

You could then re-evaluate the situation and make changes based upon how they end up actually used in game.

instead, you are trying to start over. beyond the obvious frustrations you're giving long term player by essentially taking away their shiny new xmas toys, you're also going to come across the same challenges when you try to change them again.

Stop trying to assign a role for the ship, when the actual pilots have told you what they want to do. and they have done it in unison.




Spot on. Bolded the really important parts. And Hammer, you didn't answer a single question about our concerns or our feedback.

If you are thinking of long term goals, then how pray tell does breaking a promise to some of your most loyal and long term customers fit in? If you want to get more people into 0.0, how would this effect that? You are not answering questions, you are just sticking up for your guys and telling us that long term goals are what you are thinking about. How does Dust514 fit into this mothership and dread nerf? Why **** off so many long term and loyal customers? You forget how many us are SWG refugees. This whole thing smells like a under handed nerfing like NGE was. We know the stink very well.

This isn't some uber rich guy *****ing cus his toy was nerfed. This is someone who has been a steadfast and loyal fan of CCP since he defected from SOE. I did a lot of real work to get into a ship that was promised to be something that was actually going to be flyable. But all of that is now a waste of time while you guys get around to figuring something out, meanwhile I have wasted time and money to train for something that was by ALL reason going to be something worth the time and effort.

This whole thing looks like a bait and switch to me and many others. It's that simple. And getting no real reasons for why it was swept under the rug makes it even feel even more like that every post you guys make. I am not some troll who just wants to **** on CCP. Look at my past posts, you never saw me post anything bad about CCP because in the end you always pulled through and I understood your long term goals. But I fail to see how any of this would screw up any future plans with EVE in anyway.

So, explain why these supercap and dread changes were thrown away and replaced by super nerfs? What is the real reason behind the nerfs? Excuse me if I seem a bit non trusting, but you have to earn my trust after these ninja nerfs were introduced.

Moctobot
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:36:00 - [1338]
 

i sure am excited about this New Game Experience

ZebedeeUK
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:37:00 - [1339]
 

Edited by: ZebedeeUK on 21/11/2009 00:13:55
Quote:

First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight.




That's actually more worrying. I'd prefer to believe that only one of you was completely incompetent rather than the entire team.

Quote:


We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.




This issue is important enough to delay the patch to get it right. The players affected are the longest running, most dedicated and most experienced ones. I.e. the ones you want to keep.


darkmancer
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:38:00 - [1340]
 

Is it me or does the DPS on those graphs make no sense?

Mind you the entire dev blog seems out there.

Ohh the Phoenix with torpedoes is designed to do extra damage to MOM's and Titans at close range. Wow. Specialising in something which has no serious practical application in game... nice.

Dominique Haze
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:38:00 - [1341]
 

Edited by: Dominique Haze on 20/11/2009 23:38:47
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.

To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer


Here's a thought...do your job and stop trying to screw over the customers. When the people paying your salary start to complain, maybe they should be listened to. That would be different from your tactic of ignoring us.

Thanks for listening,
CCP Customer
Internet Spaceship Pilot


Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:40:00 - [1342]
 

Edited by: Lord Helghast on 20/11/2009 23:47:25
i have a question for the CCP Team, and this is coming from a sub-capital pilot...

why not leave the MOM as it was after the last change of 15 fighter bombers with tracking issues against the smaller ships with their HP bonus (to negate the bonus the titan is getting)

without the HP bonus many large titan weilding corps that have 2+ titans can hot drop a mom and insta-pop the moms if things remain how they are...

with 15 fighters and the latest changes yes things werent perfect and no they might not hit 100% of what you wanted the MOM to be but atleast it was better than nothing.

If your not going to boost the mom you mise as well nerf the changes to the titans as well at this point.

EDIT: one other question, wheres the back and forth and discussion, every change in Dominion has gotten discussed, the moms and other features got discussed on why and how changes were being made, and now quietness... yes maybe CCP Noah shouldnt be getting pounded like he has been, but you cant just announce something this big, and then just shrug off the complaints and expect no backlash. Especially with probably the biggest visible thread censorship to date as well as the least actual real responses and discussion from the CCP team, you'd think CCP devs would want to talk about this and work the issue out especially since i'm seeing posts by some of the biggest alliances all talking on this thread.

Ralph42nd
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:41:00 - [1343]
 

Originally by: ZebedeeUK


This issue is important enough to delay the patch to get it right. The players affected are the longest running, most dedicated and most experienced ones. I.e. the ones you want to keep.




This assumes they want to keep any players at all, and I am not convinced this is the case.

tx eight
Minmatar
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:41:00 - [1344]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk


Lets review ----

motherships are not being changed they are going to be like tq motherships atm.

-- not mentioned, CCP never said they werent getting an hp buff, you all are just assuming they wont. So shush, wait for them to give more details.



They are not changed from TQ - therefore no hp buff. Basic logic.

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

second,

-- This is not the place to rant about nag, moros, and phoenix, test server feed back is in a different forum.




This is the place to raise the issues about all cap ships - take a look at the thread title.

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

4th

Hammer, you did a fairly good job of explaining everything, but when you answered many of the questions you left a lot more to be asked, you may want to make a long detailed dev blog about all the capital changes and why.



How do you consider a post without a single question answered explaining everything is beyond me.


Rest of pathetic DC skipped. There must be answers, or else people will just burn out and well, that means they won't give, to put it very mildly, a rat's tail about the game.



Aine Lagerange
Minmatar
The Executives
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:45:00 - [1345]
 

At least we have shiny new planets, yeyyy! Laughing

Klisejo
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:46:00 - [1346]
 

I still want to know who is responsible for Nozh not knowing how target painters work. That is the real crime here.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:48:00 - [1347]
 

Originally by: Klisejo
I still want to know who is responsible for Nozh not knowing how target painters work. That is the real crime here.


it wasn't nozh's failt it was the team that did it he just got to write it up there all at failt

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:50:00 - [1348]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone

And again, a CCP representative talks only about the mothership rollback and does not appear to have listened to the Minmatar dreadnought pilots concerns about the Naglfar.

Why did CCP revert the bonus changes that were well received, a few scant months after they were made?

Why are CCP condemning pilots of the most skill-intensive Dreadnought to substandard bonuses and having to fit double the damage mods for the same benefits other Dreadnoughts can get?

Why are CCP being so silent on the matter, when it has been demonstrated that the same balancing could have been achieved by reducing the magnitude of the bonuses?

lord cyrez
Caldari
xell network seven
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:50:00 - [1349]
 

Originally by: lord cyrez
first: i have to admit that i'm not too familiar with the recent turret/tracking formular changes - but my understanding is, that if the target does not move, the turrets sigresolution does not alter the equation, thus ships signature radius is no issue at all - as long as it doesnt move?

since no movement is the case for sieged dreads, the main target for other dreads, turrets presumably always hit for full damage?


anyway - i'm one of the shafted phoenix pilots, so i crunched the numbers for missiles.

-25% Signature Radius derived from a spec'd Claymore pilot.
-37.5% Signature Radius derived from a spec'd Ragnarok pilot.


Citadel Torpedo Explosion Radius: 2,250m
Ship/POS SigRadius Sig/ExpRadius -25% SIG -37.5% SIG
Revelation 1700 -24% -43% -53%
Phoenix 1770 -21% -41% -51%
Moros 1740 -23% -42% -52%
Naglfar 1635 -27% -45% -55%
Small POS 1000 -55% N/A N/A
Medium POS 2000 -11% N/A N/A
Large POS 4000 full dmg N/A N/A



Citadel Cruise Explosion Radius: 1,500m
Ship/POS SigRadius Sig/ExpRadius -25% SIG -37.5% SIG
Revelation 1700 full dmg -15% -29%
Phoenix 1770 full dmg -11% -26%
Moros 1740 full dmg -13% -27%
Naglfar 1635 full dmg -18% -32%
Small POS 1000 -33% N/A N/A
Medium POS 2000 full dmg N/A N/A
Large POS 4000 full dmg N/A N/A


so... shooting torps at any dread will net me -21% to -27% anyway?
a fifth to a quarter of my damage will *always* be lost?

and if the enemy fleet has some evasive maneuvers ganglink in it, maybe even on a non-minmatar command ship, i lose -41% to -45%?

a ragnarok doesnt show up that often, but might become flavored with this change, and would make things even worse. -51% to -55%. having any sig radius reduction going on within your enemy fleet encourages phoenix pilots to stay home and... dunno, spank NPCs.


if my assumption about turrets is true (sig radius irrelevant if target is stationary), theres no wonder why naglfar and phoenix pilots are checking in for the front row of your nerfbat roundhouse kick.


so... did you, nozh, or your associates, even run the numbers on this?
dreads shooting dreads while losing at least 20% damage anyway?

is this intended?
if yes: seriously... just reduce the torp base damage and adjust the explosion radius. easier calculations for the server, if you like torp users to be mitigated in damage anyway.



may i quote myself and add further data / questions?

with a pretty much standard-reduction of avg. 25% torp damage, is there any use left for them - except shooting motherships, since they rarely will be seen in dominion (no HP buff), and titans?


considering no dmg-skills/bonuses, just base attributes:

the "rajas citadel cruise missile" (kin) fields 1500 base damage.
the "rift citadel torpedo" (kin) fields 2000 base damage.

shooting at a...
...revelation with rajas cruise: 1500 effective dmg.
...revelation with rift torp: 1520 effective dmg. +1.3%

...phoenix with rajas cruise: 1500 effective dmg.
...phoenix with rift torp: 1580 effective dmg. +5.3%

...moros with rajas cruise: 1500 effective dmg.
...moros with rift torp: 1540 effective dmg. +2.6%

...naglfar with rajas cruise: 1500 effective dmg.
...naglfar with rift torp: 1460 effective dmg. -2.6%


and this is without your enemy bringing any signature-reducing bonus. which will probably be unlikely, since such a bonus will give a significant advantage over all phoenix- and naglfar-encounters and only requires a single ganglink, on any commandship or even battlecruiser.


TLDR: big wall of text + all those numbers = seems like citadel torps get REALLY useless now. pretty much every phoenix / naglfar pilot will fit cruise.

way to change citadel missiles. torps get useless, cruise replace them. the real deal: gotta train cruise 5 to have phoenixes and naglfars being useful at all.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:51:00 - [1350]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 20/11/2009 23:57:39

Hopefully Nozh will have the courage to make a short statement that will go something like this:

"Due to the overwhelming negative player feedback in regards to my recent decision to scrap the planned changes to the Dominion Mothership upgrade, and after some discussion with my peer co-developers and Abathur, who many of you kindly donated your free time to assist in many long months of testing and development on the Sisi test service - we at CCP have decided to move ahead with the original planned changes. We will continue to investigate further ways to improve the Motherships role and design in the near future. We apologize for providing such short notice and the dramatic nature of decisions being made toward the next expansion. We hope and strive to make Eve Online the best and most enjoyable space game available to you the players - the opinions of which we do value."

How about that response? I wonder if people would be happy if Nohz came out with something like that or similar? Surprised



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