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John Zorg
Caldari
The Damned Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:34:00 - [1261]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.


Hey CCP Nozh, could you please add the cost/value of Mothership as it stands now to the dread? Why can the Motherships not be the pawn all ships in EVE ship? You seem to constantly want to compare them to dreads? They are 9 times the price so make them 9 times better. The same applies to Titans. To be honest, the AOE DD is much preffered vs. this one hit wonder.

If you truly want to make these ships important, give them a reason to be risked. I will gladly risk taking my Mothership into a fight if I can see that I am going to help change the outcome of the fight. Also, drop the Drone Control Unit, they are useless modules anyways.

Lady Karma
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:34:00 - [1262]
 

Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Plus the interview from Mr Noah

MMORPG.com: What are three parts to Dominion you are most proud of?
Noah Ward: "Visually the planets are just amazing.

On top of the basic changes in the capture mechanics we've added new map views

The third part is a quality of life thing. We've iterated on two of our oldest features in this release. Namely the eve-mail system and the in-game Web browser"

It's ok guys, the planets will be pretty, patch saved and you can use email.

I was ready to cancel, but knowing there will be pretty planets to ponder about while I sit in my Aeon at a moon, I am more than satisfied.

Greg DaimYo
Caldari
Biotronics Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:35:00 - [1263]
 

Originally by: McTecman
Edited by: McTecman on 20/11/2009 22:29:05
I honestly don't understand how a company, responsible for a product like EVE, can afford to make such sudden late-announced changes literally two weeks from 'supposedly' shipping. Even worse, changes that go against a lengthy developer-player process that has taken all of us (both players and developers) a very long time to plan, debate, implement, test, change, followed by a feedback loop. It's like not only are you throwing away our input on ideas that, generally, we welcomed quite a bit, but also destroying your own work, and by the method you're doing this, also your credibility.

I don't have anything against Nozh personally, but it just seems like the dude isn't really knowledgeable enough on the aspects of the game he's supposedly in charge in (or enough in charge in to write developer blogs about) to be either a one-man think tank, or a front for some really, really bad ideas from a circle of developers that would probably do better in spread-sheeting random data or painting pixels than arguing about the aspects and mechanics of ships that consume a lot of time, money and effort to get into. Or take an existing idea, break it, then attempt to fix only the left side while letting the right side remain shattered. Especially since the original ideas were either from, or at least gathered and presented by, a persona that 0.0 players were familiar with and thought "Hey, I flew with this guy / shot at this guy, I know he played a part of the game I'm playing, I'm SURE that even if I disagree with him he at least knows what the hell he's doing and has actually played his part." And it's not just the ideas themselves, but this sudden ping-ponging between yes and no, green and red, then after all the initial drama going all apologetic and rolling back certain parts of a design that's too dependent on too many variables to remain stable without really thinking that it makes the game even worse than pre-Dominion for some people that have invested quite a bit of time and effort. And it's not some sort of entitlement problem, or 'the old guard' issue - it's the possibility of losing an asset that's quite a bit expensive in two or three shots.

This is beyond "lol 0.0 whining about mommies~", it's about CCP's attitude in this manner as well. And I'm not talking just about the past few days, take a look at the entire problem from a more distant perspective: After all the work done in order to show the company in a positive light (CMS, IA), all the olive branches and trying to work together in a meaningful manner via the CMS and the fanfest roundtables... Only to be broken by one lousy badly-written devblog (from a developer that doesn't seem to grasp some basics in the mechanics that he's supposed to fix, sorry Nozh & krew) that is basically taking a huge... on the playerbase, not just capital or supercapital pilots. Imagine if this was either your favourite ship or ship class. Or imagine if it was a ship/ship class your ship/ship class counters. Or, hell, imagine if Titans were suddenly hi-sec ships that could vapourize all the assets inside a certain player's hangar(s) in one shot.

The mothership issue is why we're 'whining'. The attitude towards us all however is why we've being very vocal about it.

Excellence indeed.

And jesus christ you have goons agreeing with The Star Fraction.

furthermore; :words: oh god im posting on eve-o what have i done

edit: Don't release the expansion in such a state. Delay it for a month or two if you have to.


This is a very good post and I'd like to subscribe to the newsletter of McTec.

I want to add that the fact that irks me the most is there is absolutely no fracking explanation why they thougt this would be necessary. None. Zero. As in 0.

Commander Tigre
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:36:00 - [1264]
 

Edited by: Commander Tigre on 20/11/2009 22:37:19
Originally by: Christos Hendez
I SEE WHAT CCP IS TRYING TO DO!!! They are trying to end the war!!!


if you look through this thread, its got NC, Goons, AAA, IT etc all agreeing with each other.

Now, if CCP dont think AAA & Goons agreeing is something special, then you must see flahing lights when you see ex-BoB quoting Mittens saying +1?


I wonder how russian forums are responding to this...

Edit to note another page goes by the wayside like the mothership

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:39:00 - [1265]
 

Originally by: McTecman
Edited by: McTecman on 20/11/2009 22:29:05
I honestly don't understand how a company, responsible for a product like EVE, can afford to make such sudden late-announced changes literally two weeks from 'supposedly' shipping. Even worse, changes that go against a lengthy developer-player process that has taken all of us (both players and developers) a very long time to plan, debate, implement, test, change, followed by a feedback loop. It's like not only are you throwing away our input on ideas that, generally, we welcomed quite a bit, but also destroying your own work, and by the method you're doing this, also your credibility.

I don't have anything against Nozh personally, but it just seems like the dude isn't really knowledgeable enough on the aspects of the game he's supposedly in charge in (or enough in charge in to write developer blogs about) to be either a one-man think tank, or a front for some really, really bad ideas from a circle of developers that would probably do better in spread-sheeting random data or painting pixels than arguing about the aspects and mechanics of ships that consume a lot of time, money and effort to get into. Or take an existing idea, break it, then attempt to fix only the left side while letting the right side remain shattered. Especially since the original ideas were either from, or at least gathered and presented by, a persona that 0.0 players were familiar with and thought "Hey, I flew with this guy / shot at this guy, I know he played a part of the game I'm playing, I'm SURE that even if I disagree with him he at least knows what the hell he's doing and has actually played his part." And it's not just the ideas themselves, but this sudden ping-ponging between yes and no, green and red, then after all the initial drama going all apologetic and rolling back certain parts of a design that's too dependent on too many variables to remain stable without really thinking that it makes the game even worse than pre-Dominion for some people that have invested quite a bit of time and effort. And it's not some sort of entitlement problem, or 'the old guard' issue - it's the possibility of losing an asset that's quite a bit expensive in two or three shots.

This is beyond "lol 0.0 whining about mommies~", it's about CCP's attitude in this manner as well. And I'm not talking just about the past few days, take a look at the entire problem from a more distant perspective: After all the work done in order to show the company in a positive light (CMS, IA), all the olive branches and trying to work together in a meaningful manner via the CMS and the fanfest roundtables... Only to be broken by one lousy badly-written devblog (from a developer that doesn't seem to grasp some basics in the mechanics that he's supposed to fix, sorry Nozh & krew) that is basically taking a huge... on the playerbase, not just capital or supercapital pilots. Imagine if this was either your favourite ship or ship class. Or imagine if it was a ship/ship class your ship/ship class counters. Or, hell, imagine if Titans were suddenly hi-sec ships that could vapourize all the assets inside a certain player's hangar(s) in one shot.

The mothership issue is why we're 'whining'. The attitude towards us all however is why we've being very vocal about it.




Well as someone who has mostly felt like the community hasn't quite grasped the full extent of this issue (and have argued that somewhat), you sir, have really hit the nail on the head in my opinion.

This needs to be an all or nothing sort of thing. You can't have this high level deliverable of better cap warfare and only implement 1 and a half part of that initiative while leaving all the rest out and not expect discrepancies. Revert it all please.

CCP Hammer

Posted - 2009.11.20 22:40:00 - [1266]
 

Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. SISI is there so we can have as many people as possible looking for bugs. We think it best to put things out in the public as soon as possible regardless of whether or not itís final so we get more eyes on it. This just makes sense to us from a QA standpoint because EVE is an extremely complex piece of software. SISI isnít really meant to be a place to try new fittings, do FFA battles or preview upcoming features, although we know people use it for that and we really donít mind because more load on our test server helps us find bugs. Itís also not a guarantee as to what will be in the next expansion. There have been plenty of times when we dropped a feature that was partially complete on SISI. Arenas and storefronts are two recent examples. Itís highly probable that we like pulling features from a release even less than you do but sometimes it cannot be helped. So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer

Changes Nogood
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:41:00 - [1267]
 

Quote:
I SEE WHAT CCP IS TRYING TO DO!!! They are trying to end the war!!!


if you look through this thread, its got NC, Goons, AAA, IT etc all agreeing with each other.



Perhaps this is part of the new sov system. CCP realised their changes in sov aren't going to allow ravens from empire to 0.0, so they're making 0.0 inhabitants stop playing. Quite brilliant.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:41:00 - [1268]
 

You can't even use target painters on sieged dreads

I find the balance for torps assuming targets immune to target painters, will somehow be target painted, extremely worrisome.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:42:00 - [1269]
 

Edited by: H Zebra on 20/11/2009 22:45:10
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. SISI is there so we can have as many people as possible looking for bugs. We think it best to put things out in the public as soon as possible regardless of whether or not itís final so we get more eyes on it. This just makes sense to us from a QA standpoint because EVE is an extremely complex piece of software. SISI isnít really meant to be a place to try new fittings, do FFA battles or preview upcoming features, although we know people use it for that and we really donít mind because more load on our test server helps us find bugs. Itís also not a guarantee as to what will be in the next expansion. There have been plenty of times when we dropped a feature that was partially complete on SISI. Arenas and storefronts are two recent examples. Itís highly probable that we like pulling features from a release even less than you do but sometimes it cannot be helped. So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer



so you not changing any capitals in dom then? as you seam to have broken titans in relation to moms and dreads are all screwed up also

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 - [1270]
 

Noah Ward: We're going to follow the yellow brick road and we're going to find the unique role these ships fill which will hopefully make the largest number of people happy.

well here is an idea do what this forum is saying make the changes add the fighter-bombers

another idea make them cost 1isk each dockable and able to enter high sec that shoud make 99% of the people happy or replace them as the rookie ship they are able as useful atm as they are.

look do the changes or at lest state why you have changed you minds at the end of the day is it so hard to tell us why you changed your mind?

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 - [1271]
 

Originally by: Lady Karma

It's ok guys, the planets will be pretty, patch saved and you can use email.

I was ready to cancel, but knowing there will be pretty planets to ponder about while I sit in my Aeon at a moon, I am more than satisfied.


Well, one thing is sure. If game design would have done only half a good a job as then gfx department did with those planets and moons, everyone would be gloating and in glee towards the expansion and tons of plans would be ready where to invade first and whom to kill next and not a single bad word would have been written on the forums.

The planets are REALLY nice! Cool

And you know what? Those guys really LISTEN to what people write on the feedback forums. Or was it only coincidence that most of the things which I (and others of course) critized got pretty fasted fixed up during the next upgrades? They listen, though they do not write back a lot of stuff. But you see easily the improvements there.

Oh, how different was game design for example on these capitals and supercapitals the last weeks. Sad

Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 - [1272]
 

You really have to love EvE.

So to recap:

CCP suggests initial mom changes
Player base tests changes
CCP analyses feed back, probably determines mom are over powered with FBs and moms in their current state
Player base happy because player base like huge expensive over powered crap
CCP think
CCP suggest changes to Moms
Player base whines about changes
CCP changes suggestion to a reasonable compromise
Player base whines saying "dont release the mom changes"
CCP postpones mom changes
Player base whine about the moms not getting a change

So its a bit simplistic but it works, you asked for the changes to be cancelled they have, be happy. CCP are only trying to change moms so that the rest of the game aren't forced to buy them because they pwn so much.

Like CCP have said in the past, "the player base is given the opportunity to participate in the development process of EvE" this does not give us the right to mouth off like a bunch of 3yr olds (1.5 in the case of goons). The more you whine, the more you demand Nozh's head, the more you force CCP's hand will result in CCP being pushed into a corner and banning all discussion on developments and to be honest I wouldn't blame them I would of snapped long ago.

You want to improve the game? Act responsibly, give constructive feed back and be polite to the people that have to put up with all your crap on a constant basis because you lost your wollipop.

CCP you do a great job, yes you make mistakes but then we all do.

Keep the moms as they are find a good role for them.
Create a subsystem that converts normal carriers (fighters only) into assault carriers (bombers only).

/me puts on the asbestos overcoat

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 - [1273]
 

Edited by: KeratinBoy on 20/11/2009 22:43:50
So, nuke posts from orbit with epic fire?

I like how Nozh is not to blame for not knowing target painters will not work in the manner he thinks they do. Except you just said everyone involved does not know that either. So, you are all incompetent?

Keep censoring, it works wonders for you. I feel so much love towards CCP right now.

Post 1301 this time, page 44, 2 pages just nuked.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:43:00 - [1274]
 

"All of the teams are pretty happy with what they've achieved. The primary feature in Dominion is the change to Sovereignty which effects "end game" players so naturally there will be a lot of strong opinions on the subject. Despite the heated debates and changes to designs and code along the way we think we're in a good place now--it has been a rough but necessary journey. We're also confident the changes we've made are a good base with which to add more functionality."

"Like I mentioned in the previous answer, any time we touch aspects of the game that our most hardcore players use there will be clashes of opinion."

-Noah Ward

This is pretty much exactly what SOE was saying about the NGE.

I love this one, too: "We're going to continue to talk to players."

Note the lack of the phrase "listen to."

Kenz Rider
J Club
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:44:00 - [1275]
 

You don't win an argument by turning half the player base against you. Meaning griefing people in empire because your MOMs aren't ready to rock may not advance your goals.

It would be like the cops breaking down my door and arresting me on false charges and to get back at the cops I killed a bunch people after I got out.

Even suggesting doing such a thing in this thread is going to turn popular opinion against you. And to be clear, right now you are not fighting CCP, so much as you are fighting for popular support.

I know for a fact that hi-sec griefing isn't going to increase meaningfully because of someone suggested doing it in this thread, but let's drop the suggestion entirely.

Toman Torax
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:44:00 - [1276]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. SISI is there so we can have as many people as possible looking for bugs. We think it best to put things out in the public as soon as possible regardless of whether or not itís final so we get more eyes on it. This just makes sense to us from a QA standpoint because EVE is an extremely complex piece of software. SISI isnít really meant to be a place to try new fittings, do FFA battles or preview upcoming features, although we know people use it for that and we really donít mind because more load on our test server helps us find bugs. Itís also not a guarantee as to what will be in the next expansion. There have been plenty of times when we dropped a feature that was partially complete on SISI. Arenas and storefronts are two recent examples. Itís highly probable that we like pulling features from a release even less than you do but sometimes it cannot be helped. So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer

Then you should be delaying this patch, right? Because obviously you don't want to just put out "something", right? You want to put out your best product. Correct?

This is not your best.

Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:45:00 - [1277]
 

No offense man, but CCP has taken numerous opportunities to ask for player help to test things. Naturally no one should expect it should guarantee a specific feature in the game, but the community in whole agreed with the big picture of the changes. Surely you can see the player perspective when a huge portion of the projected changes were ripped from the list two before Dominion rolls out. The sov and super-cap changes should have been done separately and not combined, which is the problem you have festering in your lap now.

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:46:00 - [1278]
 

Thanks for replying, Hammer.

...You guys coulda done it without deleting a page and a half of the thread though, lol.

Commander Tigre
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:46:00 - [1279]
 

Please explain why you were unhappy with the direction of the mothership and what your plan is for it in the mean time. Leaving it as is will not be an appropriate action with the changes to titans. THAT is what we want to know.

lydiazy
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:46:00 - [1280]
 

You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.

Cos that part realy bothered you when you made titans useless.

Ragel Tropxe
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:46:00 - [1281]
 

Hammer

Your answer focuses on the Mom changes - what about all the other unnanounced nerfs heading to the other cap ships??

Naglfar now a split weapon ship again?? - after YEARS of trying to get it changed
Phoenixes need target painters???
etc etc

How about you answer these

casai
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:46:00 - [1282]
 

hammerman we have been at you for years to change motherships takes you two years to come up with a change and then 2 weeks before the relase u say this is not working we will just keep them as they are soo now u have a 15 b ship that can be 2 vollyed by a titan

Great!!

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:47:00 - [1283]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. SISI is there so we can have as many people as possible looking for bugs. We think it best to put things out in the public as soon as possible regardless of whether or not itís final so we get more eyes on it. This just makes sense to us from a QA standpoint because EVE is an extremely complex piece of software. SISI isnít really meant to be a place to try new fittings, do FFA battles or preview upcoming features, although we know people use it for that and we really donít mind because more load on our test server helps us find bugs. Itís also not a guarantee as to what will be in the next expansion. There have been plenty of times when we dropped a feature that was partially complete on SISI. Arenas and storefronts are two recent examples. Itís highly probable that we like pulling features from a release even less than you do but sometimes it cannot be helped. So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer


So your going to make no changes to motherships but your going to make changes to titans that can 2 shot them? Okay gotcha ( delay the entire thing )

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:48:00 - [1284]
 

You cannot apply the current Sisi Titan Changes then. What is the Role for Titans? The lines seem even more blured with a Ship which does laughlable DPS for the price, has a Deathray that can 1 volley a Mothership- Thats if it was used- which it wont be.

Titan Changes should be ABORTED until you know what you are doing and what you want them to do.

Undertow Latheus
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:48:00 - [1285]
 

Thanks for the reply hammerhead, we know ccp never intentionally enrages the player base, but still manages to accidentally do so. The main thing that annoys me is that by initially talking about the mom changes you recognized that they are rather pointless and worthless ships without any clear role on the 0.0 capital battlefield. All of us were very happy to hear that moms were being overhauled as cap killers and more hitpoints etc., and them finally having a purpose

However, upon CCP not being 100% happy with the state of them on SISI, it was decided to completely leave them alone and leave them, as you already admitted, pointless worthless ships in need of a boost. I know hashing up something real quick in the 10 days left before dominion would be bad, but nobody wants you to do that. What we want is for you to postpone dominion and release it when it's ready. I'd much rather have an expansion i can be excited about come out a few weeks later than for features to just be dropped. To a lesser extent this also happened with assault frigs, just letting them rot after saying that they're in need of a buff.

Kel Arkir
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:48:00 - [1286]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
Hi, everyone


We have been carefully watching this thread and I want to set the record straight on a few misconceptions.


First, Iíd like to say that a single developer cannot come in and unilaterally change everything with no oversight. People are spewing a lot of hate at CCP Nozh but instead itís a case of shooting the messenger. He is just doing his job trying to improve the game and explain the reasoning for why changes were made. We work as a team and agree on the direction things are taking. We want the game to be balanced and fun for everyone to play. We also think about the future of the game and how it will be in years to come after our changes weighing the medium- and long-term repercussions.


We werenít entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenít falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnít clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.


You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ďsomethingĒ just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnít feel that was the right thing to do.


The other misconception I want to address is about our public test server. SISI is there so we can have as many people as possible looking for bugs. We think it best to put things out in the public as soon as possible regardless of whether or not itís final so we get more eyes on it. This just makes sense to us from a QA standpoint because EVE is an extremely complex piece of software. SISI isnít really meant to be a place to try new fittings, do FFA battles or preview upcoming features, although we know people use it for that and we really donít mind because more load on our test server helps us find bugs. Itís also not a guarantee as to what will be in the next expansion. There have been plenty of times when we dropped a feature that was partially complete on SISI. Arenas and storefronts are two recent examples. Itís highly probable that we like pulling features from a release even less than you do but sometimes it cannot be helped. So while supercarriers were on the test server and had gone through plenty of testing it still wasnít guaranteed to end up on TQ in that exact state. Only what lands on TQ on patch day is guaranteed.


Please remember that we are here to make a game that you all love to play. None of us comes to work thinking of ways to enrage the playerbase. As the Lead Game Designer, I take my responsibility seriously and that includes taking responsibility for any decisions made by our team. To me, EVE is much more than a job, itís something Iím passionate about constantly improving. I promise you I want EVE to thrive just as much as you do.


Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer


Subscription Status: Cancelled
Expires: 12/6/2009 2:27:50 PM

Thanks but no thanks, as one of the few guys with the MS on their main, I dont think I am willing to handle POS hugging.

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:49:00 - [1287]
 

Originally by: CCP Hammer
....


Thank you, at least NOW I have some idea of why.

Just one thing though....

NEVER TRY TO BALANCE CAPITAL WARFARE AROUND TARGET PAINTERS AGAIN! PLEASE!

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:49:00 - [1288]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/11/2009 22:49:40
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Edited by: KeratinBoy on 20/11/2009 22:43:50
So, nuke posts from orbit with epic fire?

I like how Nozh is not to blame for not knowing target painters will not work in the manner he thinks they do. Except you just said everyone involved does not know that either. So, you are all incompetent?

Keep censoring, it works wonders for you. I feel so much love towards CCP right now.

Post 1301 this time, page 44, 2 pages just nuked.


Yes he is responsible.

If he is having ANYTHING at all to do with the capital changes he has an OBLIGATION to know what the hell he's doing and how the stuff he's altering works.

To not expect Devs to have even minimal knowledge and experience with what they are working on is irresponsible, and shows **** poor management by CCP. It's how you get BAD game changes that don't work, and create problems that just have to be revisited later. For instance, the dread nerf was based on the use of TARGET PAINTERS, which are absolutely useless on a capital ship meant to fight other capital ships because capital ships by and large are immune to ewar.

The developer who ****canned the changes we LIKED based his changes on his own ignorance of capital warfare.

I'm honestly more upset at THAT than I am that they are delaying the changes, because it shows poor work ethic and bad management by CCP. Which inevitably leads to the game being screwed up.

1302 page 44.


H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:49:00 - [1289]
 

how about you leave all capitals as they are on tq now and if you must, install that bad sov system.

that would be better than screwing over every dread and leaving moms to gather dust in the pos

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:49:00 - [1290]
 

Originally by: Kel Arkir

Subscription Status: Cancelled
Expires: 12/6/2009 2:27:50 PM

Thanks but no thanks, as one of the few guys with the MS on their main, I dont think I am willing to handle POS hugging.


Is it a nyx because I'll take it


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