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Serj Darek
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:05:00 - [1231]
 

Edited by: Serj Darek on 20/11/2009 22:05:11



Why are you effectively destroying all super-capital class ships? I would recommend not bothering with the super-capital changes until it's sorted since six months w/ two broken classes seems moronic.

My suspicion is a middle-manager didn't approve of the changes and decided to fly in and.....


Post 1304

Orgell Evaan
Minmatar
Tax Avoidance Through Alliterative Syndication
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:06:00 - [1232]
 

Edited by: Orgell Evaan on 20/11/2009 22:06:51
With the horrendous Nag renerf, should I even bother with it, or just forget capitals for the next six months and backfill the other races' subcaps?
[1305]

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:06:00 - [1233]
 

Another bit of fallout (no pun intended) from this debacle is one that CCP should rightly be wary of. Specifically, they have ensured that actual player participation on Sisi in upcoming game changes is going to be minimal to non-existent from now on. Nobody's going to bother testing changes when they are simply wholesale shredded.

Everyone who does any testing expects changes, but for those who spent any signifcant time testing Dominion changes to caps, I would bet they are (rightly) feeling like they just got kicked in the junk and had a whole lot of their time utterly wasted.

There's a difference between incorporating feedback and making meaningful changes and simply discarding a ton of hard work wholesale.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:10:00 - [1234]
 

Originally by: Toman Torax
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

Abathur proposed changes to supercarriers. We tested them. WE GAVE YOU FEEDBACK. They seemed perfectly fair and balanced. Your response was to THROW AWAY god only knows how many months of planning on your side, and two months of testing and feedback from the players.

Now, even after all of that, we again try to offer you feedback, and ideas and solutions, and your response is to COMPLETELY IGNORE IT - and even worse, let someone who CLEARLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND how capital ships work to puke all over this thread with nonsensical spreadsheet data.

CCP, seriously... HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO RESPOND?

Deleting posts left and right that you arbitrarily deem "inappropriate" is NOT helping your cause.

You are causing a SOE NGE catastrophe all over again, and you can't even see it.

Can you PLEASE get someone COMPETENT who UNDERSTANDS the way capital ships actually work to get back on these issues once again. Someone like... ABATHUR maybe?


I can only agree here.

What are we supposed to do? After testing weeks and months those things on the test server they get discared from a total stranger (well not so strange for those who know that guy Evil or Very Mad) who just walked in. And from that point everything pretty fast went complete bonkers.

How and WHY should we ever do some testing on test server again and give feedback and do work - yes it IS work! - for you if all we get is the finger and not even TWO replies from the devs after thousands of posts?

What else should we do than demanding answers and expressing our feelings???

Thrud Valkyries
Minmatar
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:17:00 - [1235]
 

Edited by: Thrud Valkyries on 20/11/2009 22:18:37
Originally by: CobraStylez
Has there been any response from the devs on this?


Nope, just the one single fail post from Nozh about 5 DCUs and 3 TPs.

[1322] [45]

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:18:00 - [1236]
 

I see CCP is doing damage control interviews on MMORPG.com, where they quickly gloss over the mothership changes, completely forgetting to mention that the ships are incredibly expensive, have been basically useless for quite a while, and are going to continue to be useless because CCP put an inept developer in charge of capital ship changes.

Trilli Shaw
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:19:00 - [1237]
 

Originally by: CobraStylez
Has there been any response from the devs on this?



Oh yes, ONE reply so far with lots of nonsense talk about that you need and not need target painters. That siege mode will magically increase the damge you recieve and that your tanking abilities are increased and decreased at the same time. Funny graphs completly irrelevant to the topic.

Yeah, there was ONE dev reply ...


Just LOL - talking about excellency.

Strabo44
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:20:00 - [1238]
 

Originally by: Toman Torax
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

Abathur proposed changes to supercarriers. We tested them. WE GAVE YOU FEEDBACK. They seemed perfectly fair and balanced. Your response was to THROW AWAY god only knows how many months of planning on your side, and two months of testing and feedback from the players.

Now, even after all of that, we again try to offer you feedback, and ideas and solutions, and your response is to COMPLETELY IGNORE IT - and even worse, let someone who CLEARLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND how capital ships work to puke all over this thread with nonsensical spreadsheet data.

CCP, seriously... HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO RESPOND?

Deleting posts left and right that you arbitrarily deem "inappropriate" is NOT helping your cause.

You are causing a SOE NGE catastrophe all over again, and you can't even see it.

Can you PLEASE get someone COMPETENT who UNDERSTANDS the way capital ships actually work to get back on these issues once again. Someone like... ABATHUR maybe?


****ing hell I'm agreeing with a sys-k dude.

Hratli Smirks
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:20:00 - [1239]
 

Edited by: Hratli Smirks on 20/11/2009 22:20:34
These Dev blog threads haven't been going very well lately.

Your post to clear up that "yeah I totally knew you can't target paint any of that stuff and here's some fighter damage graphs against target painted dreads to prove it" was kind of confusing and did not actually instill any confidence in your understanding of basic mechanics.


1326

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:21:00 - [1240]
 

Originally by: Zy'or Tealon
Originally by: Hrin
Edited by: Hrin on 20/11/2009 21:52:47
Stop hating Nozh, he is a real person with feelings and you guys are hurting them MadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMad

(1262)

Hey I've tried to help Nozh out back in post 867...

[1301]


You mean post 267? Razz

Kris Longknife
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:22:00 - [1241]
 

Originally by: Nymysys
CCP is receiving a great deal of attention from various gaming press sites concerning what is going on in this thread. They have apparently not learned from the last time this happened.


Can we get a link, I'd very much like to read those stories.


KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:22:00 - [1242]
 

Edited by: KeratinBoy on 20/11/2009 22:22:23
Still waiting on some competent person to respond competently to this thread from CCP.

Hint: Trying to wriggle out of this idiocy in your usual manner is not the way to go.

Post 1329

Nymysys
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:22:00 - [1243]
 

Originally by: Isonda
post killmail or it did not happen..


Sorry, looks like it was deleted ugh

McTecman
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:24:00 - [1244]
 

Edited by: McTecman on 20/11/2009 22:29:05
I honestly don't understand how a company, responsible for a product like EVE, can afford to make such sudden late-announced changes literally two weeks from 'supposedly' shipping. Even worse, changes that go against a lengthy developer-player process that has taken all of us (both players and developers) a very long time to plan, debate, implement, test, change, followed by a feedback loop. It's like not only are you throwing away our input on ideas that, generally, we welcomed quite a bit, but also destroying your own work, and by the method you're doing this, also your credibility.

I don't have anything against Nozh personally, but it just seems like the dude isn't really knowledgeable enough on the aspects of the game he's supposedly in charge in (or enough in charge in to write developer blogs about) to be either a one-man think tank, or a front for some really, really bad ideas from a circle of developers that would probably do better in spread-sheeting random data or painting pixels than arguing about the aspects and mechanics of ships that consume a lot of time, money and effort to get into. Or take an existing idea, break it, then attempt to fix only the left side while letting the right side remain shattered. Especially since the original ideas were either from, or at least gathered and presented by, a persona that 0.0 players were familiar with and thought "Hey, I flew with this guy / shot at this guy, I know he played a part of the game I'm playing, I'm SURE that even if I disagree with him he at least knows what the hell he's doing and has actually played his part." And it's not just the ideas themselves, but this sudden ping-ponging between yes and no, green and red, then after all the initial drama going all apologetic and rolling back certain parts of a design that's too dependent on too many variables to remain stable without really thinking that it makes the game even worse than pre-Dominion for some people that have invested quite a bit of time and effort. And it's not some sort of entitlement problem, or 'the old guard' issue - it's the possibility of losing an asset that's quite a bit expensive in two or three shots.

This is beyond "lol 0.0 whining about mommies~", it's about CCP's attitude in this manner as well. And I'm not talking just about the past few days, take a look at the entire problem from a more distant perspective: After all the work done in order to show the company in a positive light (CMS, IA), all the olive branches and trying to work together in a meaningful manner via the CMS and the fanfest roundtables... Only to be broken by one lousy badly-written devblog (from a developer that doesn't seem to grasp some basics in the mechanics that he's supposed to fix, sorry Nozh & krew) that is basically taking a huge... on the playerbase, not just capital or supercapital pilots. Imagine if this was either your favourite ship or ship class. Or imagine if it was a ship/ship class your ship/ship class counters. Or, hell, imagine if Titans were suddenly hi-sec ships that could vapourize all the assets inside a certain player's hangar(s) in one shot.

The mothership issue is why we're 'whining'. The attitude towards us all however is why we've being very vocal about it.

Excellence indeed.

And jesus christ you have goons agreeing with The Star Fraction.

furthermore; :words: oh god im posting on eve-o what have i done

edit: Don't release the expansion in such a state. Delay it for a month or two if you have to.

Johnette Napolitano
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:25:00 - [1245]
 

If you guys want to get CCP's attention in a way they simply can't ignore, as many 0.0 corps/alliances as possible should declare a day (oh, say, Sunday?) as D-Day for Eve. Go to every crowded mission hub, every trade hub, every mining hub, and suicide every damn ship you find. And keep doing it. Ya'll have high sec alts to place ships for you, that isn't an issue. Insurance is a joke - cost is barely an issue. 10,000 crying carebears (of which I'm one) will get you results a lot faster than this thread ever will.

Ralph42nd
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:25:00 - [1246]
 

Edited by: Ralph42nd on 20/11/2009 22:26:25
Originally by: Strabo44
Originally by: Toman Torax
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

Abathur proposed changes to supercarriers. We tested them. WE GAVE YOU FEEDBACK. They seemed perfectly fair and balanced. Your response was to THROW AWAY god only knows how many months of planning on your side, and two months of testing and feedback from the players.

Now, even after all of that, we again try to offer you feedback, and ideas and solutions, and your response is to COMPLETELY IGNORE IT - and even worse, let someone who CLEARLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND how capital ships work to puke all over this thread with nonsensical spreadsheet data.

CCP, seriously... HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO RESPOND?

Deleting posts left and right that you arbitrarily deem "inappropriate" is NOT helping your cause.

You are causing a SOE NGE catastrophe all over again, and you can't even see it.

Can you PLEASE get someone COMPETENT who UNDERSTANDS the way capital ships actually work to get back on these issues once again. Someone like... ABATHUR maybe?


****ing hell I'm agreeing with a sys-k dude.


I too am in agreement

Please CCP for the love of $deity fix this ****, answer our questions, we're not asking for a lot here, and no we probably won't just go away.

POST 1333 PAGE 45

Hope Xar
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:26:00 - [1247]
 

I would like to see some real answers to those most urgent questions.

For example: What was wrong with Abathur's changes that they needed to be completely thrown away from one day to the next?

Why the heck is target painting even MENTIONED? It is totally irrelevant in cap warfare!

What are these strange changes on siege missiles? Is there any coherent design on them??

Fylin Manslayer
The Wretched.
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:27:00 - [1248]
 

Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview

Nymysys
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:27:00 - [1249]
 

Originally by: Kris Longknife
Can we get a link, I'd very much like to read those stories.


Stories are currently being written...

Strabo44
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:27:00 - [1250]
 

Originally by: McTecman
I honestly don't understand how a company, responsible for a product like EVE, can afford to make such sudden late-announced changes literally two weeks from 'supposedly' shipping. Even worse, changes that go against a lengthy developer-player process that has taken all of us (both players and developers) a very long time to plan, debate, implement, test, change, followed by a feedback loop. It's like not only are you throwing away our input on ideas that, generally, we welcomed quite a bit, but also destroying your own work, and by the method you're doing this, also your credibility.

I don't have anything against Nozh personally, but it just seems like the dude isn't really knowledgeable enough on the aspects of the game he's supposedly in charge in (or enough in charge in to write developer blogs about) to be either a one-man think tank, or a front for some really, really bad ideas from a circle of developers that would probably do better in spread-sheeting random data or painting pixels than arguing about the aspects and mechanics of ships that consume a lot of time, money and effort to get into. Or take an existing idea, break it, then attempt to fix only the left side while letting the right side remain shattered. Especially since the original ideas were either from, or at least gathered and presented by, a persona that 0.0 players were familiar with and thought "Hey, I flew with this guy / shot at this guy, I know he played a part of the game I'm playing, I'm SURE that even if I disagree with him he at least knows what the hell he's doing and has actually played his part." And it's not just the ideas themselves, but this sudden ping-ponging between yes and no, green and red, then after all the initial drama going all apologetic and rolling back certain parts of a design that's too dependent on too many variables to remain stable without really thinking that it makes the game even worse than pre-Dominion for some people that have invested quite a bit of time and effort. And it's not some sort of entitlement problem, or 'the old guard' issue - it's the possibility of losing an asset that's quite a bit expensive in two or three shots.

This is beyond "lol 0.0 whining about mommies~", it's about CCP's attitude in this manner as well. And I'm not talking just about the past few days, take a look at the entire problem from a more distant perspective: After all the work done in order to show the company in a positive light (CMS, IA), all the olive branches and trying to work together in a meaningful manner via the CMS and the fanfest roundtables... Only to be broken by one lousy badly-written devblog (from a developer that doesn't seem to grasp some basics in the mechanics that he's supposed to fix, sorry Nozh & krew) that is basically taking a huge... on the playerbase, not just capital or supercapital pilots. Imagine if this was either your favourite ship or ship class. Or imagine if it was a ship/ship class your ship/ship class counters. Or, hell, imagine if Titans were suddenly hi-sec ships that could vapourize all the assets inside a certain player's hangar(s) in one shot.

The mothership issue is why we're 'whining'. The attitude towards us all however is why we've being very vocal about it.

Excellence indeed.

And jesus christ you have goons agreeing with The Star Fraction.

furthermore; :words: oh god im posting on eve-o what have i done

Sajeera
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:29:00 - [1251]
 

Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Noah = Nozh ?!

Ralph42nd
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:31:00 - [1252]
 

Edited by: Ralph42nd on 20/11/2009 22:33:00
Edited by: Ralph42nd on 20/11/2009 22:31:41
Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Noah = Nozh ?!


Welp, I was corrected, seems Noah (Hammerhead) is a p. chill guy

POST NUMBER 1338, PAGE 45

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:31:00 - [1253]
 

Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Noah = Nozh ?!


No. Noah = Hammerhead.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:32:00 - [1254]
 

Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Noah = Nozh ?!


Ward Noah is lead game designer and also known as HAMMERHEAD, yaaaaaaay! He is a pretty cool guy and can drink quite a lot I hear :-)

And he is a very different person than Nozh.

Chaosmancer
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:32:00 - [1255]
 

Edited by: Chaosmancer on 20/11/2009 22:41:18
Originally by: Sajeera
Originally by: Fylin Manslayer
Here is the link mentioned:

mmorpg.com Interview


Noah = Nozh ?!


No, he's CCP Hammerhead.
Also: grats on post #1337

edit: nvm : D

Troll Bridgington
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:32:00 - [1256]
 

Originally by: Johnette Napolitano
If you guys want to get CCP's attention in a way they simply can't ignore, as many 0.0 corps/alliances as possible should declare a day (oh, say, Sunday?) as D-Day for Eve. Go to every crowded mission hub, every trade hub, every mining hub, and suicide every damn ship you find. And keep doing it. Ya'll have high sec alts to place ships for you, that isn't an issue. Insurance is a joke - cost is barely an issue. 10,000 crying carebears (of which I'm one) will get you results a lot faster than this thread ever will.


Indeed, they have left us no choice.

Eat a hardy breakfast, for tonight we dine in Perimeter!!!!!

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:32:00 - [1257]
 

Edited by: Navick on 20/11/2009 22:32:59
"Sir, sir! The players are really upset about the latest dev blog... there's a threadnaught forming on the forums about it!"
"Ah, that's nothing to worry about. Just start deleting all the negative posts you can, as fast as you can."
"But that... wait, what?"
"Relaaax, if we delete the posts then it's like it never happened! *Click click* See? No post, no problem Please visit your user settings to re-enable images."

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

post # 1323, page 45

Seriously, CCP. Knock it off with the "damage control" and just answer your customers, already. Deleting entire pages of a thread is only making it worse.

Orgell Evaan
Minmatar
Tax Avoidance Through Alliterative Syndication
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:33:00 - [1258]
 

Originally by: McTecman
I honestly don't understand how a company, responsible for a product like EVE, can afford to make such sudden late-announced changes literally two weeks from 'supposedly' shipping. Even worse, changes that go against a lengthy developer-player process that has taken all of us (both players and developers) a very long time to plan, debate, implement, test, change, followed by a feedback loop. It's like not only are you throwing away our input on ideas that, generally, we welcomed quite a bit, but also destroying your own work, and by the method you're doing this, also your credibility.

I don't have anything against Nozh personally, but it just seems like the dude isn't really knowledgeable enough on the aspects of the game he's supposedly in charge in (or enough in charge in to write developer blogs about) to be either a one-man think tank, or a front for some really, really bad ideas from a circle of developers that would probably do better in spread-sheeting random data or painting pixels than arguing about the aspects and mechanics of ships that consume a lot of time, money and effort to get into. Or take an existing idea, break it, then attempt to fix only the left side while letting the right side remain shattered. Especially since the original ideas were either from, or at least gathered and presented by, a persona that 0.0 players were familiar with and thought "Hey, I flew with this guy / shot at this guy, I know he played a part of the game I'm playing, I'm SURE that even if I disagree with him he at least knows what the hell he's doing and has actually played his part." And it's not just the ideas themselves, but this sudden ping-ponging between yes and no, green and red, then after all the initial drama going all apologetic and rolling back certain parts of a design that's too dependent on too many variables to remain stable without really thinking that it makes the game even worse than pre-Dominion for some people that have invested quite a bit of time and effort. And it's not some sort of entitlement problem, or 'the old guard' issue - it's the possibility of losing an asset that's quite a bit expensive in two or three shots.

This is beyond "lol 0.0 whining about mommies~", it's about CCP's attitude in this manner as well. And I'm not talking just about the past few days, take a look at the entire problem from a more distant perspective: After all the work done in order to show the company in a positive light (CMS, IA), all the olive branches and trying to work together in a meaningful manner via the CMS and the fanfest roundtables... Only to be broken by one lousy badly-written devblog (from a developer that doesn't seem to grasp some basics in the mechanics that he's supposed to fix, sorry Nozh & krew) that is basically taking a huge... on the playerbase, not just capital or supercapital pilots. Imagine if this was either your favourite ship or ship class. Or imagine if it was a ship/ship class your ship/ship class counters. Or, hell, imagine if Titans were suddenly hi-sec ships that could vapourize all the assets inside a certain player's hangar(s) in one shot.

The mothership issue is why we're 'whining'. The attitude towards us all however is why we've being very vocal about it.

Excellence indeed.

And jesus christ you have goons agreeing with The Star Fraction.

furthermore; :words: oh god im posting on eve-o what have i done


CCP, certainly you can see the irony when Goons make - and continue to make - intelligent observations regarding the complete PR meltdown currently underway? Why can't we get an answer - preferably one that's actually possible?

mkmin
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:33:00 - [1259]
 

Why isn't this whole thread locked yet? The very existence of this threadnaught indicates that no one in CCP who matters is reading it anyway. To not ask player advice about a change is one thing.

1) It's a business's responsibility to attempt to improve a product.
2) It's consumer responsibility to complain when a product or service doesn't meet their expectations.
3) It's a business's responsibility to respond to customer complaints and criticisms.
4) It's a consumer's responsibility to stop using a product or service when it stops meeting expectations.

CCP, we're waiting for you on step 3. I expect when step 4 happens, it'll happen fast.

Retsil Evad
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:33:00 - [1260]
 

Originally by: Toman Torax
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

Abathur proposed changes to supercarriers. We tested them. WE GAVE YOU FEEDBACK. They seemed perfectly fair and balanced. Your response was to THROW AWAY god only knows how many months of planning on your side, and two months of testing and feedback from the players.

Now, even after all of that, we again try to offer you feedback, and ideas and solutions, and your response is to COMPLETELY IGNORE IT - and even worse, let someone who CLEARLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND how capital ships work to puke all over this thread with nonsensical spreadsheet data.

CCP, seriously... HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO RESPOND?

Deleting posts left and right that you arbitrarily deem "inappropriate" is NOT helping your cause.

You are causing a SOE NGE catastrophe all over again, and you can't even see it.

Can you PLEASE get someone COMPETENT who UNDERSTANDS the way capital ships actually work to get back on these issues once again. Someone like... ABATHUR maybe?

/Signed

CCP, you need to listen to your player base. The fact this thread has had a responce this prolific should make it very loud and clear that a considerable number of people are very annoyed about the changes and the way they were dropped from a great height.


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