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Narawen Blake
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:06:00 - [1171]
 

Failure cascade?

Lady Karma
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:08:00 - [1172]
 

CCP are notoriously stubborn.

This reminds me of a referee in an important match, making a terrible decision, even when he gets home and watches the slow motion replay, he will still claim he is in the right. Then provide a graph with target painters, to show how the edge of the ball would have crossed the line if it was painted.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:08:00 - [1173]
 

id cancell my accounts but i pay with gtc's. i wont be buying anymore. wtf should i give you 700 of my cash each year to be treated to such sloppy substandard service as Nozh and the forums mods have provided

Ghuarran
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:09:00 - [1174]
 

CCP, I honestly don't understand what is going on here. What you are allowing to happen is -exactly- what you do not want- the loss of long-term, committed players. Those are the players these 'changes' are designed to affect, and you are losing them. This observation isn't trolling, spamming, or anything, it's simple fact.

Listen to the players that have spent years playing and interacting in the universe you created and they helped shape. Ultimately, this universe is for them, and when they are obviously upset about something in large numbers, you should find out why and dialogue with them to find out why. You shouldn't make sweeping changes without warning, and decide not to justify them after a steady stream of players from literally all alliance sizes, names, and political alignments.

The longer this thread remains unanswered, the more the posts will degenerate, and the more your player-company relations will as well. Please, for the benefit of us players, for the benefit of your company, and for the benefit of this awesome game, DO SOMETHING. TALK TO US.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:10:00 - [1175]
 

Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Quit whining like babies seals. Very Happy

(course if I had a MS I would be 'whining' too)


Or a Titan, or (and this affects many more people) a Phoenix or a Naglfar ...

Not to mention anything else soon to be touched by devs who don't understand their own game mechanics.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:10:00 - [1176]
 

Originally by: Klisejo
I was looking forward to Dominion. Now I fear it. What other last minute changes will you make?


CCP Vader: "I'm altering the deal, pay I do not alter it any further."

As I have said, I STRONGLY suspect the massive nerfs and dumbing down of the sov system have nothing to do with EVE as we knew it and EVERYTHING to do with their Dust514 pet project and the "millions" of "konsole kiddies" they think they are going to get and make massive profits off of.

Which is why I suspect they won't tell us the reasoning behind nixing the mom changes AND their sudden extreme nerfing of dreads.

Athos Zel'tar
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:11:00 - [1177]
 

What is scary to me is that the players affected by this are some of the most dedicated in the game. It takes years to develop the character skills necessary to fly a mom or titan (yes I am very aware that alts can be bought, but I cannot believe most supercap pilots are purchased).

Over 90% of the stuff in Dominion does not even apply to me, yet I find that this complete disregard and disrespect for some of the most influential players in the game sets me back on my heels. If CCP is willing to treat you guys this way, then there really isn't a limit to how far they will go.

Think about that for a minute and tell me that doesn't frighten you.

I really believe that a senior dev coming here and answering some of the well thought out questions posted here will go a long way toward repairing the damage caused by these events.

Konoch
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:13:00 - [1178]
 

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Quit whining like babies seals. Very Happy

(course if I had a MS I would be 'whining' too)


Or a Titan, or (and this affects many more people) a Phoenix or a Naglfar ...

Not to mention anything else soon to be touched by devs who don't understand their own game mechanics.


And the fact that a ****TON of work by PLAYERS got thrown out the door with the baby water.

This isnt just bad PR this is borderline criminal. This is bait and switch bull**** and i dont think i'm going to pay for it. I've only been playing on this account for two months. But two years ago i left over simular bull****. I came back thinking maybe CCP did clean up its act. They got 72 hours to figure this **** out or i hit the cancel sub button permanently.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:14:00 - [1179]
 


Ralph42nd
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:14:00 - [1180]
 

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Quit whining like babies seals. Very Happy

(course if I had a MS I would be 'whining' too)


Or a Titan, or (and this affects many more people) a Phoenix or a Naglfar ...

Not to mention anything else soon to be touched by devs who don't understand their own game mechanics.


Or banned because they had the gall to speak up about it?
Or banned because they had the balls to complain about a dev?
Or banned just because they ever played eve in the first place?

This is sad CCP, really, really sad.

I look forward to watching you attempt to delete the outrage you have cause here yesterday and today at the farthest reaches of the internet.

You sirs are terrible.

Quote:

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

We would also advise you that posting "٩๏̯͡๏)۶" or "Free Abathur" are considered spam and will also be removed.




Please keep silencing your customers because we disagree with you and yours. This tactic cannot possibly come back to bite you in the ***, or ***, or eve in your ***.

Every new player heard about t20 pretty quickly. Everyone will hear about this too.

If you would simply answer our questions and LISTEN to the FEEDBACK we HAVE provided YOU, this would be water under the bridge.

You have a drooling idiot employed to balance the largest, most expensive ships in the game and he has ZERO (0, none, nadda, not a) clue how the game actually works. Can you explain to me why this is the case? Can you explain to me after the hundreds and potentially thousands of complaints you have received in this thread and other you have chosen to ignore us? Have your reprimanded this idiot in anyway?

Can you explain in clear concise english :words: why you are having issues pushing forward the changes the player base said was cool and wanted? Can you explain rationally why all these changes are being undone? Are we to believe you are going to change nothing about dominion aside from making 0.0 space less worth keeping and more worth quiting over? Also taking AOE DD's away from titans without an appropriate back up (what mom's would have been amiright) will see titans less used in battle than ever before, is there a reason behind this design decision?

All your ideas are stupid, childish, idiotic and shameful. At one point I as well as thousands of other players were looking forward to the big game changing patch, now we have to think about if it's worth resubbing for or not, and you don't care because we are saying bad stuff about you on your forum and your clearly in a PR stance of ignore it and maybe it will go away. Did the T20 threadnaught go away? Have your past ******ed blemishes gone away?

This thread has moved from it original topic to a demand for accountability at CCP Games, and if you can ****ing deal with that perhaps you should harden the **** up, and learn to play your own game, because you'll be the only people on the planet with a copy of it on your computers.

Fire that ****** Nozh, implement the changes the players tested and said were cool and were working. Else explain why not.

And don't post in this thread again with a warning about trolling and spamming when you won't answer what you have been asked.


Ryan Powers
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:14:00 - [1181]
 

Edited by: Ryan Powers on 20/11/2009 21:14:54
Originally by: Jack Gilligan


The LAST thing they are going to do is actually explain themselves. Having built their stone walls, Nozh and CCP are going to hope they can withstand our trebuchets.



So load the trebuchets with corpses.

Serious question: So no changes will be made to mothership come Dominion. This includes the removal of clone vat bays, yes?

Julio: gimme links!

Note to self: This was on page 41 @ time of post.

Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:14:00 - [1182]
 

Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 20/11/2009 21:14:34

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Quit whining like babies seals. Very Happy

(course if I had a MS I would be 'whining' too)


Or a Titan, or (and this affects many more people) a Phoenix or a Naglfar ...

Not to mention anything else soon to be touched by devs who don't understand their own game mechanics.
Your right.

I'm sure glad I blew up my two Phoenix's for the plat insurance.
1.55b payout ftw.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:14:00 - [1183]
 

This is hilarious. I mean, this whole situation is amazing.

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:17:00 - [1184]
 

Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 20/11/2009 21:21:10
Forgive me from stealing the thunder of everyone.

Lets get back on the topic of mother ships here shall we?... i mean after all its good that we are reminding CCP the result of not listening to their customers and the fallout they could likely face if they had kept a lot of the changes they were thinking of implementing.

I urge you however to take solace in that they aren't releasing anything for Moms yet as they haven't screwed them up any worse than they are now. Yes they're an over sized trophy right now not having any real combat potential on the current battlefield. Yes it sucks that they arent releasing anything for dominion on moms even though we have been looking forward to it since they said they were.

This however gives us the opportunity to spend more time helping them fix the damn things so they get it right. So lets get back on topic?...

Here ill start things off. I'm sure other people have given ideas for how to fix mother ships in the past posts and i don't feel like going through the past 40 pages to sift
through whines about not listening to players to find them. to start with...

1. Give moms enough effective HP to avoid getting one shot'ed by a titan doomsday device. (reserve that honor for smaller ships like dreads)

2. (my own personal worry) Keep the same fighter bonus per level of +3 so they don't just become over sized carriers with a larger price tag. they're supper carriers they should be able to launch more fighters than carriers... Fighter bombers are different, so limit to control DPS as you see fit.

3. Drop the clone bay and let them dock. I say this because yes you'll have those morons station hopping but i thought the aggression timers stopped people from station docking for 15 minutes. The price to repair one of those quickly will also be a huge crap load of isk which i know i wouldn't have, i still gawk at the price to station repair my battleships. I shudder to think what a carrier or super carrier would cost. Not to mention yes they could be station camping but im sure you get a mom anywhere else and you wont have to worry about station hugging. You could also give outposts an upgrade to allow supper capitals to dock there if your worried about people docking too many. Maybe one per station per station upgrade?... just an idea im throwing out.

Reason why i think docking supper carriers is a good thing is it frees up the people who are idling alts to fly them and would make them that much more desirable than to have a character sit on one for eternity.

So now that i threw out 3 ideas ive either heard or have come up with myself i ask these to be torn apart by the community. the more we discuss ideas the more productive this thread can be fore the devs and the sooner those mom pilots will get their babies a new shiny job and we will see them fly once more.

SO POST IDEAS OR REPEAT IDEAS!!!!

if you think it is a good idea quote the author or link his post so the devs can see people support an idea. the more they see in idea the better chance they will remember it and perhaps who knows, INCLUDE IT!

reminding them to listen to us is fine. HEll CCP we pay your bills i would hope you do so,... but guys, seriously post an idea or copy pasta someones you like so we give the devs something to work with than just BURN THE WITCHES WHO WONT LISTEN TO US. and i agree that Abathur in his first capital blog had it down pat. Loved his ideas, and i wonder why those got changed.

But thats my .02 isk worth. I hope everyone follows suit else ne thinks the deleted posts will continue. or the beatings will until morale improves....rofl.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:17:00 - [1185]
 

Originally by: Julio Torres
Theres now threads about the uprising against Dominion on several MMO related sites.

Won't take long before the "press" pick up on this.


LOL, Julio Torres :)

I still remember laughing my ass off when he appeared on "Attack of the Show" on G4 to demonstrate the "wonderful" NGE only to have what he was trying to demonstrate fail on live TV because SOE hadn't bothered to fix a bug that had been reported thousands of times :)

And, yes, the gaming "press" will pick up on this. CCP will be forced to do a 180' or they are going to face the wrath of the PO'ed geek mob. I still think this has to do with Dust514, because to otherwise risk the wrath of their existing player base makes absolutely no sense. I never thought Hilmar would morph into John Smedley.

I think CCP wants to dumb down EVE in order to benefit Dust514 and the massive money they think they are going to make off it. It's the only thing that explains Dominion.

Dominion= Capital ship downgrade, sov system consisting of "shoot the flag with your nerfed capitals for hours". I only see this game going backwards the day Apocrypha 1.5 is replaced with Dominion 1.0. The current game is better than what they are proposing.

Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:17:00 - [1186]
 

Dominion is actually going to be a Chrome browser, with some huge ****ty spaceship screensaver attached to it.

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:18:00 - [1187]
 

At this point, I really hope you guys are working to formulate a decent response.

If nothing else, will you be giving motherships the hp bonus? There're other, huge problems, but this one alone means they will never be used just because titans can two shot them.

pg 41

Helios Darksteel
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:19:00 - [1188]
 

Originally by: Athos Zel'tar
What is scary to me is that the players affected by this are some of the most dedicated in the game. It takes years to develop the character skills necessary to fly a mom or titan (yes I am very aware that alts can be bought, but I cannot believe most supercap pilots are purchased).

Over 90% of the stuff in Dominion does not even apply to me, yet I find that this complete disregard and disrespect for some of the most influential players in the game sets me back on my heels. If CCP is willing to treat you guys this way, then there really isn't a limit to how far they will go.

Think about that for a minute and tell me that doesn't frighten you.

I really believe that a senior dev coming here and answering some of the well thought out questions posted here will go a long way toward repairing the damage caused by these events.


Assuming the questions haven't been deleted by the time they arrive.

Sol Mortis
Caldari
An Heroes
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:22:00 - [1189]
 

Undoing Abathur's changes is incomprehensible. They had been developed over a long period of time with lots of input from the community and players put a lot of time and effort into doing FREE TESTING WORK for CCP on the singularity server. The prevailing opinion after these tests was that the changes were good and people were excited about them, with many fewer nay-sayers than usual as there inevitably are with any major change.

I remember a long time ago when CCP was considering carrier changes that would make pilots unable to control their own drones, or only half of them. They didn't go through with it because it was horrible, but it made me decide that I would never train for a ship that required so much time and expense to fly when it could be ruined by a dev's whim. That was the best decision I've made so far in EVE, as I cross-trained all the racial sub capital ships instead and am now quite nerf-resistant. I think it is sad that players have to make decisions like that essentially because we don't trust CCP not to ruin the game for us.

Not as a personal attack on Nozh, but rather a statement of fact: He clearly does not understand the actual game mechanics as evidenced by the fact that he expects pilots to target paint Ewar-immune ships and structures, that he believes capital ship fights only happen at long range, and his general ignorance of how screwed the Naglfar will be. He didn't know what he was doing when he made the disastrous nano changes, and he hasn't learned anything in the last year.

The censorship of valid criticism and deleting posts you don't like is disgusting. Just because you opened an office in Shanghai doesn't mean you should behave like the Chinese government.

Liberate Abathur for the Little Dude. I guess emoticons are ok Evil or Very Mad but not ٩๏̯͡๏)۶ because it symbolizes our dissatisfaction with a last minute change to a major feature.

III LightBringer
The Treehugger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:22:00 - [1190]
 

came here to post something constructive about Nozh's blog.

This is the only good thing I read : "Every ship needs its niche"
From there on, it is just stupid. (partially except the boost to range on Pulse/Blaster/AC's)

However, Shocked

Now, boosting the range on P/B/AC so they outdamage B/R/AR out to 50'ish KM and have higher damage/tracking would not make things unbalanced. Once the close range dreads siege, they will get sniped and die in a fire. This is WHY cap fights normally are not at close range. That and the fact that the close range guns are not used is that close range DPS NEED a 30-40% boost.

And please. Back to the niche's..

Carriers: the new BS. A personal logistical masterpiece. Important to the players that like to toy around on their own...
Dreads: the fist of any empire in 0.0 space. Useless for individuals.
Motherships: ?? Space-toomb-stones?
Titans: Fleet logistics / shock and awe tool to mash down big stuff fast. Very expensive. Very easy to lose after this DD nerf. The bane of sub-supercap ships. (for 5 sec)

Now:
A MS that could field some hard hitting drones that do awsome DPS (and that are easy to counter if prepared) could be awsome. Motherships would be hard for dreads to fight. Right now, there are no counter to 100 dreads except more dreads.
A MS that have enough EHP to stand up against 5 titans.


The fighterbombers that could go out there and outdamage the dreads means that it would be possible to deploy 10-15 MS against maybe 25-30 dreads, spider up and go to work, praying that noone will open a covert cyno and send in 10 hounds...



Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:24:00 - [1191]
 

Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/11/2009 21:41:18
Originally by: Strabo44
How does it feel to be worse than SOE?


They aren't quite THERE yet, they haven't yet actually implemented this mess of a dumbed down mega game nerf.

But given that the expansion is due out in less than 2 weeks, I don't have much hope.

The only fair thing to do at this point, since their capital changes have been completely rejected by pretty much every alliance that actually uses them (unlike the Dev who is making the design changes) is to roll all of them back, INCLUDING the titan changes. Leave capitals to a future patch, roll out everything else.

Or delay the expansion until it's gotten RIGHT, and we want to fly our dreadnoughts instead of sitting here making threadnoughts.

As I said, I suspect that these changes, including the sov system, which I still don't like, have more to do with Dust514 than EVE, and that we can expect further "mini NGE's' between now and it's release. Which is why they won't come clean and explain themselves.

Edit: this was post 1232 on page 42. wow, keep it up, modtards.


Bravardo
Gallente
Universal Army
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:27:00 - [1192]
 

I pay real money to play this game, no timecards, no plexs, real money but after reading in this thread how imcompentant some of your staff are & also seeing how you(CCP) treat your customers with contempt & utter disrespect, im finding it very hard to justify spending real money resubbing my 3 accounts as it is my money(real money)that is paying your wages & im not happy with the work you are doing.

Snowcrow
Minmatar
Lyonesse.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:27:00 - [1193]
 

40 pages + a lot more deleted comments dont lie...

balancing has always been a weak point of eve (pre- and post amarr ships, Naglfar, Motherships, etc etc) but this brings it to a new level.

I am disappointed, like 90% of the eve population.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:28:00 - [1194]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 20/11/2009 21:28:23
Originally by: Jack Gilligan

Or delay the expansion until it's gotten RIGHT, and we want to fly our dreadnoughts instead of sitting here making threadnoughts


But what's the point of releasing Dominion at all if they aren't going to do it on the day Iceland became sovereign? Razz

Frothgar
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:30:00 - [1195]
 

Why is Nozh suddenly in charge of capital balancing?

CCP Selene had a lovely thing going that everyone was really excited for.

Short range guns on dreads wouldn't be worthless anymore, range and damage was increased to make it realistic to use them out to ~70km, tracking was nerfed out of siege but for the most part people were pretty happy with things.

Instead Nozh came in and made them have LESS effective range than they have currently, I mean really, how pitiful is it when a raven with torps has comperable/better range than a dreadnaught.

Lets be honest, more often than not, in a hotdrop/undock/warpin for capitals, they usually bump in a direction usually around 50 KM across. Its completely silly to expect "Short Range" guns to be able to be usable when they can't even damage something for full damage outside of 20km.

You can't even FIT an average sized (Mobile)capital fleet into a 20km sphere and you're expecting them to actually shoot one another while stationary?

You wanted Differential between the short range and long ranged weapons, so make it so the close range fits are realistically usable around 100km, and the long range fits are good out to 200km. Its pitiful that citadels can't even reach 200km without ruining its EHP with Rigs and waiting half a minute in flight time.

I'm in the 90% of the playerbase who never even looks at the forums, but this is worth posting over because these changes are downright silly and I really don't see this being addressed from a developer with a realistic perspective.

paik
Minmatar
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:30:00 - [1196]
 

Edited by: paik on 20/11/2009 21:31:07
Deleting isnt helping you are only enraging us.

You are deleting as fast as possible and were already at page 42 and we have a 5 min refire.

Surrender

QTIFYD

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:31:00 - [1197]
 

Edited by: Catari Taga on 20/11/2009 21:42:43
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
I urge you however to take solace in that they aren't releasing anything for Moms yet as they haven't screwed them up any worse than they are now.
Well not exactly, without the EHP buff if a Mom leaves the POS shields after Dominion they can be insta-popped by the new Titans.

edit: this was post #1237 when I posted it

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:32:00 - [1198]
 

Originally by: Redora
Lotka.org'd my original post:

The issue I'd like to see addressed is the Elephant in the room that only The Mittani has touched upon so far. How are we supposed to be able to take any Singularity testing seriously after this? Honestly after this point, I'd expect anything EVERYONE agreed upon (with countless hours of testing) to be "LOL SUPERCARRIER'd".

What is CCP's plan for stemming the loss of credibility on Singularity? Why should we log in to Singularity and help test changes anymore?



Yes. Moreso, doesn't it seem dangerous to make major changes 2 weeks before a patch when there's no time to test them?

page 42

Kiri Serrensun
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:33:00 - [1199]
 

Edited by: Kiri Serrensun on 20/11/2009 21:33:47
Originally by: Jack Gilligan

As I have said, I STRONGLY suspect the massive nerfs and dumbing down of the sov system have nothing to do with EVE as we knew it and EVERYTHING to do with their Dust514 pet project and the "millions" of "konsole kiddies" they think they are going to get and make massive profits off of.


I don't think there's an agenda here. Supercarriers are as hard to fly and use well as they ever were, it's just now they're kinda useless, bereft of a tactical role and too expensive & vulnerable to use. These changes just appear to result from confusion and a poor understanding of the game, which is worse in a way.

Varrakk
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.20 21:34:00 - [1200]
 

CCP not listning or having a real dialog with its 0.0 player base is pretty risky. We are probably your biggest and most dedicated customers, running multiple accounts.

In addition you going against Super Capital pilots, and especially the Titan pilots which has influence in their Alliances. You are creating negative publicity.


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