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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:09:00 - [961]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 20/11/2009 17:11:08

Disclaimer: I've never flown a Capital ship (despite having the skills) but have been in Cap Ship fights.

I do feel that with the new Titan Superweapons though, doesn't this make Motherships relatively too vulnerable without some large boost to HP?

Whats the salvage like on a Mothership anyway? I'm glad you've delayed the proposed changes - I hope you now actually plan to make them mobile base style "Motherships" rather than "Super-carriers". Always plenty of good ideas in the ideas forum for them, Cheers. Wink

Other than that I like the new "Short range" balancing. I hope that the DPS advantage of Short Range Sieged is enough compared to Long Ranged Seiged to make it worthwhile.

I see lots of flames for you here Nozh, I know it comes with the job, but I hope you dont get to blinkered in your own way of thinking (like you did with all the Gallente changes past! Razz), because some of the players will probably know better than you the reality of using these ships from day to day experience. (But not me, so meh...Wink)

Thanks for the blog anyway.


Akay Quinn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:09:00 - [962]
 

Why is the answer to "Capital ships cant be Target painted so the new Phoenix weapons wont do max Damage" a set of graphs of Fighter-Bombers against a phoenix... with Targetpainters used that couldn't be used against it in siege?

Shigsy
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:09:00 - [963]
 

Seeing as MoMs arent getting any changes can we stop calling them ****ing super carriers now? Rolling Eyes

Agmar
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:10:00 - [964]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...
Out of curiosity, have you ever PLAYED this game?

If so, have you ever played in 0.0? Because, of these changes, it certainly seems like you're just changing things to prove that you can change them. That philosophy is working out GREAT for Obama.

Tea Spoon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:11:00 - [965]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh

Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.



This sentence makes no sense to me however many times I read it. How does activating a siege/triage module increase the damage received as it provides immunity from the Target Painters needed to take full damage from certain weapons ?

If English is not your native language and have problems expressing a point in it there must be someone there to help you communicate.

Stora's Lemming
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:12:00 - [966]
 

all i think that surly its wrong to have a 18Bisk worth of ship to be able to die in 2 shots!


Aethrwolf
Caldari
Podrratu
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:12:00 - [967]
 

Originally by: Aethrwolf
I gotta ask.. is he from the southern USA? as in * trolling remark removed - CCP Ildoge?



well, gonna restrain from replacing what was removed FOR THE MOMENT. Just gonna point out that while the sentence containing the snipped phrase WAS deliberately offensive, it was the part you DIDN'T remove that made the rest offensive, otherwise it was just a hillbilly/redneck joke, and since I are one, I can make those jokes and not be considered a bigot. pitiful, just pitiful. I wont go on cause that would be discussing moderation which is not allowed.

lets see, you want constructive criticism at the least.. since you ideas seem to not jibe with ours.. DEFINE CONSTRUCTIVE!

I know why you have links with China now.. you adopted their ruling style. Don't earn the name CCCP, please

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:13:00 - [968]
 

Originally by: T'Karr



HAHAHA epic.... so true. It worked on the test server, so it can work on TQ...


The last time I played around on SISI was after the nerf. I don't have anywhere near super capship skills and yet was able to hold off I believe, 3, motherships after I dropped into siege for a good 6-7 minutes.

I'm sure it'll work great on TQ as it is. Thank god I have no interest in doing any sort of capship fighting right now.

getting alpha'd by a titan death ray was fun though.

Hockenheim
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:13:00 - [969]
 

Nozh, change race please, don't dishonour Caldari

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:13:00 - [970]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
I don't even log into eve-online, a game about spaceships, and yet I know that you can't target paint supercaps or sieged dreads.

I also know, despite not being a player, that cap fights often take place within ridiculously short range.

Welp, this makes next week's column an easy topic. "New CCP vs Old CCP," something about how the older class of 'dev who doesn't know anything about the game' is managing to force out the newer, former-player devs with actual experience.


I wish to quote this post for ironic effect.

Now, where's my msn...

Arramis
Minmatar
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:14:00 - [971]
 

Edited by: Arramis on 20/11/2009 17:18:56
Edited by: Arramis on 20/11/2009 17:14:55
Again graphs show everything, you m8 "has" NO CLUE, how things work in 0.0 or worce in CAP FIGHTS, or how we fit our dread`s, ms`s etc... and I BET you can`t understand why NAGLFAR is the LOLDREAD.

We wold understand that it`s short therm until december 1 and we must have patience so you could READ the feedback of ABATHUR`s changes and talk to the man.
Quoting kittens:

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
..stuff...
..other stuff...

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

...and other stuff.

And we expect you to have the decenty to say you`re sorry, to leave the work to someone that knows what he`s doing. PLEASE!

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!.


Klisejo
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:16:00 - [972]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.




But you said "The new version of the Citadel Torpedo follows the same trend as other unguided missiles. The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential."

So what am I shooting with my citadels that I CAN use a target painter on? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not throwing citadels at a BS blob. Why even mention a target painter at all?

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:16:00 - [973]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



How do these graphs comparing Torpedo carrying fighter-bomber damage to fighter damage help prove your point that Citadel Torpedoes are balanced against other Dreadnought weapon systems?

Originally by: CCP Nozh"

"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.


If both Mothership and Titan changes are both works in progress, why are Mothership changes being rolled back but Titan changes are going ahead full steam? In your opinion, what should be the primary role of a Titan? Why should people get excited about paying $15/month to do that and nothing else?

Von Kleist
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:17:00 - [974]
 

Edited by: Von Kleist on 20/11/2009 17:18:27
what happened to seleenes changes?
why is this moron in charge of caps?
does he have ANY experience or reason to be there, or did you just have a job opening?

Way to ruin all of the interesting parts of the expansion.

Oh and by the way, the loot tables and bounties suck on anomalities, so thanks for dumping more of them in a system as a reward for sov, nice touch.

forum leak:

I can't believe how on top of this thread CCP is, if they put the same effort into making this game better that they do with modding their forums I might not have to be drunk and high to play it. - Puss Bag

Kuar Z'thain
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:18:00 - [975]
 

Originally by: Ralph42nd
Nozh-Nothing About Eve

Akay Quinn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:19:00 - [976]
 

What did we, as a community, ever do to wrong you CCP overlords, that you felt it just to replace Abathur with Nozh?

Why were Abathur's changes, which were worked on and settled on by the better part of the community, just tossed out the window? Why in hell are you ignoring this question?

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:22:00 - [977]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.

Stop posting.

Titus Balls
Minmatar
Balls Independent Traders
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:22:00 - [978]
 

Well until CCP respond with some valid feedback and listen to users, I can see only one course of action:

Operation Nerf Nohz

CCP might get the hint if on a pre-determined day very shortly NO ONE from any of the 0.0 alliances logs on for a whole 24 hour period. Regardless of anything you need to do, on that day if CCP see that 80-90% of the userbase refuse to log in to show their distain with what's happening then maybe they will get the hint and actually start listening to players (and hopfully nerf Nohz)???

Brokers Clone
Amarr
Northgate
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:25:00 - [979]
 

For now, just sit back and wait... While waiting, rename your motherships

"New Coke"

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:25:00 - [980]
 

Originally by: Titus Balls
Well until CCP respond with some valid feedback and listen to users, I can see only one course of action:

Operation Nerf Nohz

CCP might get the hint if on a pre-determined day very shortly NO ONE from any of the 0.0 alliances logs on for a whole 24 hour period. Regardless of anything you need to do, on that day if CCP see that 80-90% of the userbase refuse to log in to show their distain with what's happening then maybe they will get the hint and actually start listening to players (and hopfully nerf Nohz)???


nah the protest multi-alliance empire jihad sounds like it'd be more fun then just not logging on.

Lilinane
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:25:00 - [981]
 

Edited by: Lilinane on 20/11/2009 17:27:08
does CCP have another dictatorial position open, I would like to apply for.
Resume
Lilinane
Telephone : Dont have I-Hub yet so not upgrades as of now
Email: Same as above

I have lots of experience on doing whatever i like not matter what other think of it it actually make me feel good.

I can provide very nice references upon request.
Please let me know i can start as soon as posible since i lost my job since Obama took over the presidency in US.


Chris Rittenhouse
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:25:00 - [982]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


I don't think this can be quoted enough. To be perfectly honest I think what most of us want is a tiny bit of transparency.

Why was Abathur/Seleene removed from head of capital changes after being so well received?
Why did I waste 5 hours to get into Sisi to play with Titans and Supercarriers (and enjoy the time I did play with them) only to see them go out the window?
Why did you throw all of Abathur's and the communities' hard work in playtesting the changes right out the window for some half-arsed garbage that was clearly never thought through entirely?
Why are you, Nozh, ignoring the playerbase and insulting us with bull posts for hypothetical situations that never, ever, ever happen in game and telling us, the capital pilots, how they happen when in reality they happen nothing in the way you describe.
Tell us, how are we going to Target Paint a dread or carrier in siege/triage respectively when they become immune to EWAR and Target painters are considered EWAR?
Why are you insulting us with graphs of a mothership with 5 drone control units when that will never, ever, ever happen in the game? Carrier pilots don't even use DCU's unless they're assigning fighters to rat with or ratting in the carrier itself.
Who the hell put you in charge, and why?
Why are you making a change to citadel torpedoes that causes them to do reduced damage and point-blank range where they are supposed to excel and destroy their target and can only realize their full damage if triple-target painted targets are present and the target isn't in siege. Because seriously, we all know that point-blank capital fights never, ever happen, and that in said capital fights no one is ever in triage or siege trying to punish the other fleet as quickly as they can. Right? Rolling Eyes
Why are capitals unable to defend themselves from sub-capital fleets now? What the hell is the point of that? Is your rationale that we shouldn't be deploying capitals without a sub-capital fleet present anyways?

Seriously, any transparency would be great, not your insulting posts trying to save face because you don't have a clue what actually happens during a capital fight.

Any thread that unites enemies should be a clear indication of the 0.0 playerbase's feelings for a change.

Answer some questions, resign your position to Abathur, and get ****ed you clown.

Christos Hendez
Warhamsters
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:27:00 - [983]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


Completely agreeing with Mittens...now if you look at my alliance ticker, youll know this is a big deal.

Kymlicka
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:28:00 - [984]
 

I only have an indirect at best vested interest in capitals/supercapitals, but I'm much more disturbed by CCP discarding the transparency and player base communication approach to game development-- it has taken years to get to a point where players on all sides were collaborating with actively engaged and interested developers to balance, revise, and expand game mechanics. Now it seems like a return to the glory days of CCP when patches would break things without any explanation, or, at best, an explanation that suggested the people who made decisions weren't actually aware of how to play the game in which they ostensibly have so much invested.

How is that progress? As entertaining as it is to watch a dev fail to explain the necessity of nonsensical and non sequitur supercap changes, I would much prefer an explanation of why, after years of developing rapport with the community and creating two way channels for discussing and elaborating fundamental game play changes, we now have returned to the glory days of CCP Useless putting on his paper crown and declaring useless game changes from his throne.

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:28:00 - [985]
 

Edited by: cpu939 on 20/11/2009 17:29:02
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:



dear god man one moment your stating facts then your going here is how it would have worked with a graph for dps inc upto 3 tps. also why did you not show the dps from 20 fighter-bombers was it over 9000

Originally by: CCP Nozh
"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


this is true that you can't change range when in siege wait wait wait is there not long range and short range ammo. did you see the video i posted a link to you know the one with x ammount of caps all under 5km apart this is called a hot drop

Originally by: CCP Nozh
"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


this is true apart from the hp count a frig trying to play docking games will die a bs playing docking games can also be killed.

we the players still want to know what your problem is with teh mother ship your putting out the titan with it changes then your going to work on them why not the mothership so why change one and not the other one.

i think nozh you should stay away from the spreedsheets when trying to put your case across you just look stupid.

so what i will say i this how about you put the changes out and see if the player base has any compaints about it and work to change it you are trying to pre nerf not always the best way to go

p.s. to nozh sorry if i come across as harsh but i think you need it, your trying to show how you think it could work with out trying it out like we the players did.


Titus Balls
Minmatar
Balls Independent Traders
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:28:00 - [986]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: Titus Balls
Well until CCP respond with some valid feedback and listen to users, I can see only one course of action:

Operation Nerf Nohz

CCP might get the hint if on a pre-determined day very shortly NO ONE from any of the 0.0 alliances logs on for a whole 24 hour period. Regardless of anything you need to do, on that day if CCP see that 80-90% of the userbase refuse to log in to show their distain with what's happening then maybe they will get the hint and actually start listening to players (and hopfully nerf Nohz)???


nah the protest multi-alliance empire jihad sounds like it'd be more fun then just not logging on.



AAAHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LALALALALALALALALALALLAAL (yea that could work too :) )

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:29:00 - [987]
 

I would just like a straight up answer from CCP Nozh....What part of CCP Abathur's proposed "Supercarrier" was overpowered or broken? I want to hear it directly from you Nozh...tell us!

Major Roy
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:29:00 - [988]
 

so nozh...how much of CCP stock does your dad hold ?

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:29:00 - [989]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
[Stuff]
I note that you did not deign to explain why it was necessary to revert the Naglfar's bonuses back to the horrid split-weapons version that was changed just recently by CCP after many months of player and CSM lobbying. Especially when it has been proven that it could have been brought into line by reducing the magnitude of the bonuses.

Why must the Minmatar dreadnought pilots suffer with two half-bonuses and the requirement to fit double the damage mods to get the same effect as the other three dreadnoughts, especially after training for two (soon three) capital weapon systems? Did you change them without looking up the recent history of the ship? Do you just loathe Minmatar?

Kim Wilde
Gallente
Covenant
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:31:00 - [990]
 

well thx for giving the titans there death sentence as usefull combat ships so far, nerfed into oblivion and why would you risk brining a 75b+ ship unto the field when 2-3 dreads will normlly achieve the same result(altho takes a few mins to reach same dmg numbers) while being just 6bill isk oin the line

you can deploy 50dreads and loose em rather than loosing a titan, spot the error here in cost effective deployments
as the owner of a erebus i can just say mine is now entering deep/cold storage for when they have a role!
except being a big mobile stargate with a bullseye painted on it


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