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Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:53:00 - [931]
 

Edited by: Sertan Deras on 20/11/2009 16:53:55
You know, I went and re-read Nozh's reply, and uhh, Nozh, it makes you look worse than the original dev blog did. It shows you don't even have a fleeting grasp on how we actually use these ships.

Here's a hint: No one target paints anything in a capital fight, making your graphs absolutely worthless. The only line on that graph that matters is "15 Fighter Bombers - Base/Siege", and it's barely 2700 DPS. My Revelation did 5200 DPS with max skills and faction gear. 2700 DPS was not unbalancing, it was not even out of the realm of normal, it was barely half of what a good Revelation will do. Especially when you consider that DPS is based on drones that have travel time and can be killed.

The Titan debacle is just hilarious. For months we've been told you DID have a role in mind for titans, as front line anti-capital, anti-structure fighters. Now, suddenly, in your great wisdom, you have decided titans are now gigantic logistics ships, and SHOULDN'T have a lot of direct damage capability...but wait, you are going to release them with the turret buffs and capital death ray in tact anyway.

This whole thing is just a complete and total mess, and shows a level of incompetence and total break down of sane communication at CCP.

Gieron
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:53:00 - [932]
 

Originally by: Thrud Valkyries
If the dread siege YOU CANT USE TPs ON IT!
So that number is totaly usless.

There might be more ships there?

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:53:00 - [933]
 

Originally by: Kraken Kill
You dont seem to understand, Motherships- will NEVER use drone control units.



This is the truth. Also WHY was Abathur's work discarded?

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:53:00 - [934]
 

Originally by: Kaeser
Irony = CCP Corporate Statement on their website here : http://www.ccpgames.com/

"We Care More. We Work Harder"

Perhaps everyone should email or phone through their (civil) note of disappointment using the contacts link on the page so that we know that CCP management is aware of peoples feelings in regard to the game and the current situation ?




This will probartly work.

Pedron Niaal
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:54:00 - [935]
 

Quote:
WE, the community, WERE happy with the balanced changes from CCP Abathur.....YOU, CCP Nozh, changed it to make us unhappy with them. And all the while WE, the mothership owners, spent billions of isk for a ship that has and will remain broken after all the positive work, testing, and feedback towards it? It is YOU, the developers, who cant seem to get it right. YOU, CCP Nozh, have completely screwed up the titan, mothership, naglfar, and phoenix. THIS, capital warfare, is the most sought after pvp amongst most 0.0 players. WE, the ones who fly capital ships, have told YOU what we thought was right and wrong in these changes/fixes and yet YOU refuse to listen and/or respond to us. Do YOU expect us to just sit back and remain calm while YOU destroy the ships that we have spent so many months to fly? Convert that game time over to real life money @ 15 USD per month....in truth you are literally ripping us off. Change the isk value of a mothership to GTCs and convert those same GTCs to real life money and see how much you are ripping us off for....Is that any way to treat your customers? Do you really want to ignore your customers? Research other MMO's that aren't around anymore that were blackballed by the playerbase (I wont mention the companies b/c you ninja delete any that refer to specific ones) and you will find the #1 reason why they got blackballed is because the playerbase's feedback was ignored. History repeats itself and YOU should learn from the mistakes made in the past from other companies similiar to CCP. WE aren't telling YOU these things to troll or flame...WE are telling YOU these things because WE love the game and WE want to see it improved.


Signed.
you did not even answer on any question and points we mentioned.
You totally ignored all the players hard work and reducing Titans the biggest ship in the game to a jumpportal doing NOTHING. Why not reward players that spend billions of virtual money on one thing with a Ship that can REALLY achieve something. (Like killing things).

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:54:00 - [936]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
You know, I went and re-read Nozh's reply, and uhh, Nozh, it makes you look worse than the original dev blog did. It shows you don't even have a fleeting grasp on how we actually use these ships.

Here's a hint: No one target paints anything in a capital fight, making your graphs absolutely worthless. The only line on that graph that matters is "15 Fighter Bombers - Base/Siege", and it's barely 2700 DPS. My Revelation did 5200 DPS with max skills and faction gear. 2700 DPS was not unbalancing, it was not even out of the realm of normal, it was barely half of what a good Revelation will do. Especially when you consider that DPS is based on drones that have travel time and can be killed.

The Titan debacle is just hilarious. For months we've been told you DID have a role in mind for titans, as front line anti-capital, anti-structure fights. Now, suddenly, in your great wisdom, you have decided titans are now gigantic logistics ships, and SHOULDN'T have a lot of direct damage capability...but wait, you are going to release them with the turret buffs and capital death ray in tact anyway.

This whole thing is just a complete and total mess, and shows a level of incompetence and total break down of sane communication at CCP.


You shouldnt have stated the numbers on your revelation, Nozh is gonna ninja nerf it now

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:55:00 - [937]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
If they're using SCRUM metholody properly, they will be having regular meetings and discussions on game design changes before they're agreed upon and therefore before they get into devblogs. Frankly, I don't believe that's the case because someone would have twigged on that some of these changes were garbage or at least picked up on the obvious target painter mistake. CCP has hundreds of employees, a lot of whom play EVE. Surely at least one person working on the Dominion expansion actually plays EVE and takes part in the activities they're redesigning and balancing. They would certainly have spotted those mistakes had it been discussed with them.

What it sounds like to me is that Nohz has been given free reign on game design decisions on this expansion and he isn't consulting other people on it. He's already overriden other people's hard work on the issue such as the past month of work on capital balancing on Sisi. A lot of this stuff is subjective but some has obviously not been run by the other people working on the expansion or even current EVE players before being finalised. Siege torp changes relying on target painters? Docking motherships? Any player could see he's just grasping at straws with very little idea as to what the problem is. He needs to discuss these changes with people who actually play EVE and start taking on board the work already done by other developers.

Didn't you guys hire Seleene? Good god, go and ask him for input. You've run out of development time.
QFT and you, sir, are a genius.

More on SCRUM here.

I do not post the above to troll CCP. Rather, I expect CCP to professionally communicate to its client-base what took place in the context of the design, development and testing cycle(s). As well as what CCP will do to prevent this type of mess from happening again.

As easy a target as Nozh presents him or herself to be (truly, no other entity could paint a bigger bullseye on their own back than Nozh), CCP the company is responsible for this debacle. CCP the company needs to police its own and bring sanity back to the capital design and development life cycle.

This is the point where a true leader in CCP steps up and takes charge of this [now] one-way dialog.

Brobuck
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:55:00 - [938]
 

Originally by: The Mittani

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.



It looks to me like a bad case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because you are new to the position doesn't mean you have to discard all the progress that was made prior to your arrival. Just looking at the response of the membership here should give you some small glimpse at the obviously enormous amount of pushback. CCP has often stated that they want to be responsive to player feedback, what is the justification for planting your heads in the sand on this one?

CaptFlemming
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:56:00 - [939]
 

Edited by: CaptFlemming on 20/11/2009 16:56:12
Nozh, i just wanted to say, you have a really firm grasp on what is going on out there. Keep up the goon work.

٩๏̯͡๏)۶

Overlord Anubis
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:56:00 - [940]
 

giant roids, letís make it less profitable for high end miners. Large roids that spawn everyday will saturate the market with mega and zyd. What is the lure for miners in null sec when that happens? Next Ice miners sorry we are screwing you over via all the alliances no longer needing all that fuel.

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:56:00 - [941]
 

Originally by: Battle Tested
Originally by: Sertan Deras
You know, I went and re-read Nozh's reply, and uhh, Nozh, it makes you look worse than the original dev blog did. It shows you don't even have a fleeting grasp on how we actually use these ships.

Here's a hint: No one target paints anything in a capital fight, making your graphs absolutely worthless. The only line on that graph that matters is "15 Fighter Bombers - Base/Siege", and it's barely 2700 DPS. My Revelation did 5200 DPS with max skills and faction gear. 2700 DPS was not unbalancing, it was not even out of the realm of normal, it was barely half of what a good Revelation will do. Especially when you consider that DPS is based on drones that have travel time and can be killed.

The Titan debacle is just hilarious. For months we've been told you DID have a role in mind for titans, as front line anti-capital, anti-structure fights. Now, suddenly, in your great wisdom, you have decided titans are now gigantic logistics ships, and SHOULDN'T have a lot of direct damage capability...but wait, you are going to release them with the turret buffs and capital death ray in tact anyway.

This whole thing is just a complete and total mess, and shows a level of incompetence and total break down of sane communication at CCP.


You shouldnt have stated the numbers on your revelation, Nozh is gonna ninja nerf it now


Don't care. I sniffed out months ago that CCP was going to hamfist the entire capital/super capital side of this patch, and put the wheels in motion to sell my maxed out capital pilot. I sold him for a damn good price the day before this dev blog hit, which is great, because capital character prices are going to tank hard after this mess.

RogueMind
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:57:00 - [942]
 

I've honestly never seen every alliance in nullsec combine together as one like this.
CCP, do we have your attention yet?

Will Hunter
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:57:00 - [943]
 

Originally by: Tor Vanderwal
Quoting The Mittani

"He completely ignores the big issue here, which is that the community and the dev team worked together to achieve a supercapital reform package that was broadly popular and exciting.

For no reason - none has been provided - Nozh showed up and threw all the playerbase's work with Abathur out the window."

Tyby
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:58:00 - [944]
 

Edited by: Tyby on 20/11/2009 16:58:59
so, log on test server, spend hours/days testing.... we do not care about your conclusions anyway! Laughing it's our game, we can do whatever we like with it!
now get out from your basements, and go drink a beer and meet a nice girl....
Twisted Evil
p.s. don't forget to pay the monthly subscription, tho






The Medusa
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:58:00 - [945]
 

Edited by: The Medusa on 20/11/2009 16:59:30
I guess the minmatar titan, evasive man gang links and halo implants just became useful.

Hey Nozh!!! :condi:

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:59:00 - [946]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 20/11/2009 17:16:26
Originally by: Tappits

Not him. HE looks nothing like nore does he sound anything like the real one.


I hear this is closer:

Nozh


Also lol @ Nozh's "Big Picture".

Major Roy
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:00:00 - [947]
 

I recommend u give the current DD to MS !

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:01:00 - [948]
 

Originally by: RogueMind
I've honestly never seen every alliance in nullsec combine together as one like this.
CCP, do we have your attention yet?


it's not even that... there was a PERFECTLY buffed MS on SISI. A True capkiller that would strike fear into capship pilots when they'd come on.

The ship was balanced. The titans were perfect. the nag was usable. the Phoenix... well, anyway as I was saying....


Things were GREAT.

Titans and MSs would destroy dreads and carriers, but the titans couldn't alpha the MSs. The MSs in turn could put the hurt on titans.

And for some reason, it didn't make cute graphs. So it had to be nerfed.

Angel HUN
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:01:00 - [949]
 

Edited by: Angel HUN on 20/11/2009 17:02:07
So far CCP has had a Dev with 0 credibility undo broadly popular changes. Why is it that this same Dev is the one trying to reason with the community. It is amazing how someone who started with no credibility apparently expects to be heard in a reasonable manner.

Lose the graph jockey. The graphs do nothing for his credibility, and honestly are a liability.

T'Karr
Minmatar
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:01:00 - [950]
 

At the end of the day, we dont like what you are proposing Nozh... we prefered Abathurs, and we tested it, and we liked it. We had a lot of fun with it. And we all wished this fun would finally be introduced full time to the game. Now you have scrapped it all and have decided to introduce some stupid ideas, with some equally stupid grpahs.

The community dont like what you are proposing. Put Abathurs ideas back into motion and lets get the best expansion to date FINISHED AND DONE WITH ABATHURS IDEAS.

Ralph42nd
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:02:00 - [951]
 

Hey wait ... when did ccp buy failblog?

Fire CCP Nozh-Nothing About Eve

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:02:00 - [952]
 

All your graphs tell me is that if we're ganking a lone dreadnaught or two and someone brought along target painters for some reason we'd do a lot of damage under your changes. That's pretty nice I guess I sure am glad I spent 18 billion on mine. In a real fight we'd be worth half a dread though, that's kinda sad.


Anyways a brief summary of the changes so far.

Step 1: We have a good idea.
Step 2: Test good idea.
Step 3: dfgdgfdhhdfgsdgderhgggbubbbfguydrtgr
Step 4: Write a blog about it

Ka'lorn Font'a
Amarr
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:02:00 - [953]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


Posting to agree with Mittani... Again. ugh

Commander Tigre
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:03:00 - [954]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
So Titans don't have a defined role, but you are still going to release them with their incredibly powerful buffs, yet completely ignore motherships for another six months. Why not just release the incredibly powerful buffs to motherships until they have a defined role? The logic doesn't even begin to make sense.


GIVE THE MOTHERSHIP THE HP BUFF!! It will not make it superpowered, it will make it VIABLE!

Quote:
Also, if Dreadnoughts can no longer shoot battleships effectively, I expect battleships to no longer be able to shoot cruisers effectively. If the most expensive ships in the game aren't allowed to defend themselves from a smaller ship class, than the mentality should go all the way down the ship tree.


I predict capital ships to be lost left and right to small battleship blobs now because capitals cannot properly defend themselves against the smaller ship classes (other than with drones).

Riflektshon
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:06:00 - [955]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1195556

[Edit: updated dates, fixed errors.. check back soon for more updates on testing schedule]

Dominion is just around the corner and it brings more improvements and enhancements with it. We think you'll be happy with the changes we've made; of course now we need to put it to the test in a "live-like" situation! To that end we will be running a series of fleet fights and other mass-tests on our main test server, Singularity.

These tests will begin Thursday, October 15. We need at least 100 pilots, preferably 400+Ö the more people who show up, the better.
_________________________________
Test schedule:

Thursday [October 15] @ 17:00 GMT -- Finished
Thursday [October 29] @ 17:00 GMT -- Finished
Friday [October 30] @ 17:00 GMT -- Finished
Thursday [November 12] @ 17:00 GMT -- Finished
Thursday [November 19] @ 17:00 GMT -- Fleet Finder test
Thursday [November 26] @ 17:00 GMT -- Final Mass-test before Dominion release! - QuestionWHYQuestion

Traxio Nacho
Dark Knights of Deneb
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:07:00 - [956]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


Think Mittens says it right there really, Nozh you haven't given an explanation or reasoning why you even changed Seleene's ideas (unless I missed it), Supercarriers (MOMS) had been tested people liked them and old and new mom pilots were really looking forward to having a use for this ship again.

Then you came along Nozh and decided to **** things up against the wall, lets hope you didn't have much input in any other bits of Dominion otherwise god help us and CCP's subscriptions Very Happy

You also made yourself look like a clueless muppet saying Target painters would be needed to increase Cit Torp damage when they don't work on the ships you suggest, only to reply basically saying well you don't need target painters really.

You're also a silly see you next Tuesday for changing the Nag again!!!!


Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:07:00 - [957]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive.

For this sentence to work, Siege Module I and Triage Module I would have to have a signature radius penalty associated with them. They do not. What do you mean with this sentence?

Quote:
... due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.

It does not make an iota of a difference if the damage from short range XL guns drops after 5km, 10km, 20km or 40km. When you enter Siege, you are anchored stationary for 10 minutes. Any counter deployment of capitals knows that you have fitted SR guns prior to jump in because they can see them. Which means they can and will jump in at a range beyond your damage dealing ability and pick you off, one by one.
As the concept of SR XL guns can not ever overcome this restraint in their design, no amount of damage dealing will ever make them useful.

Naglfar

You chose to not address this issue. Please read this posting and give us feedback.
We do not demand to obtain the one dread to rule them all, but we - hopefully understandably - do not want to sink into the depths of clear inferiority again either.
Naglfar pilots have fought years to get rid of the split weapon bonus, which has known and acknowledged problems (see for example Dominion faction ship revamp that removed all the split weapon bonuses). Don't shoehorn it back down our throats.

Titans and Moms
Going forward with the Titan changes and deploying the new superweapons that were in part balanced around the supercarrier/mothership HP buff, without actually implementing the MS/SC HP buff is wrong.
Please do not do that.




T'Karr
Minmatar
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:07:00 - [958]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines


Things were GREAT.

Titans and MSs would destroy dreads and carriers, but the titans couldn't alpha the MSs. The MSs in turn could put the hurt on titans.

And for some reason, it didn't make cute graphs. So it had to be nerfed.



HAHAHA epic.... so true. It worked on the test server, so it can work on TQ...

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:07:00 - [959]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
You know, I went and re-read Nozh's reply, and uhh, Nozh, it makes you look worse than the original dev blog did. It shows you don't even have a fleeting grasp on how we actually use these ships.


This is so sad. I must fully agree with a goon.

Nozh's reply really showed how messed up things are. He has absolutely NO CLUE whatsoever. How could anyone let him get anywhere near such important things like capitals?

Stop using completely irrelevant graphs, what are you trying to prove? That you are RIGHT and everyone else an idiot not understanding you? Have you considered that it might be just the other way round?

EVERYONE, every single alliance involved in capital warfare tells you over and over again the same thing. Doesn't that tell you something? No? BUT IT SHOULD!!!


Also: What was wrong with Abathur's version of (super)capitals that you had to scratch it?

Amra Khanii
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:08:00 - [960]
 

So, how about those pesky ninja salvagers, huh?


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