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Jonathan Ross
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:35:00 - [901]
 

so what about the characters literally trapped in 14 billion isk ships that are the prime targets for being 1 shot by two titans

Titus Balls
Minmatar
Balls Independent Traders
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:35:00 - [902]
 

Edited by: Titus Balls on 20/11/2009 16:40:32
Edited by: Titus Balls on 20/11/2009 16:40:09
And your first reply is to post more graphs? I agree with Lofe sXe ^^

As to the docking games - a good suggestion has already been made here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1216618

(Edit: adding docking games link)

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:35:00 - [903]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.



why not leave them ALL as they are now on tq and review in 6 months?

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:35:00 - [904]
 

Edited by: Serena Ku on 20/11/2009 16:44:40
Thanks for finally responding to the EVE community Nozh. Wink

Edit- lol 5x DCU graph... well that's something. Very Happy

Edit Ver.2- I think the sensible thing to do at least for the Motherships/Supercarriers is to give them a HP buff for Dominion.

Kernok
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:37:00 - [905]
 

"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.

MAKE

STATIONS

SPITTERS


we'll dock em up and kill the station humpers 1 at a time when they undock.

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:38:00 - [906]
 

So Titans don't have a defined role, but you are still going to release them with their incredibly powerful buffs, yet completely ignore motherships for another six months. Why not just release the incredibly powerful buffs to motherships until they have a defined role? The logic doesn't even begin to make sense.

Also, if Dreadnoughts can no longer shoot battleships effectively, I expect battleships to no longer be able to shoot cruisers effectively. If the most expensive ships in the game aren't allowed to defend themselves from a smaller ship class, than the mentality should go all the way down the ship tree.

Kieselguhr Kid
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:38:00 - [907]
 

yep that graph makes 15 billion isk ships that can't dock with limited HP that relies upon glorified drones hideously unbalanced. why, after its drones got there, it'd have done as much damage to a dread as 2.5 dreads. can't have that!


The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:39:00 - [908]
 

Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.

Krutoj
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:39:00 - [909]
 

From everyone here in Legion of xXDEATHXx, CCP Nozh, you have no idea how 0.0 capital warfare works.
Please give this job to someone with a clue CCP.

/Signed
Legion of xXDEATHXx


P.S.: we own the most amount of capitals per person per corporation in the entire Eve, so whatever changes you make, affect us badly and if they affect us, it will affect you too.

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:39:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras

Also, if Dreadnoughts can no longer shoot battleships effectively, I expect battleships to no longer be able to shoot cruisers effectively. If the most expensive ships in the game aren't allowed to defend themselves from a smaller ship class, than the mentality should go all the way down the ship tree.


Nozh Expects you to fit Cruiser guns on your BS so you can kill Cruisers.

True Story.

Kuar Z'thain
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:40:00 - [911]
 

I love how the graphs even mention Target Painting. Rolling Eyes

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:40:00 - [912]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.


You still haven't answered any questions, all you did was requote your changes basically. F'n FAIL

Pelleaon
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:40:00 - [913]
 

Originally by: Battle Tested
"Regrettably, we've come to the point where we can no longer commit to making Motherships the monsters they're supposed to be for Dominion. However, we are going to continue refining their schematics, keep our welding torches hot and you should see them undocking from the shipyards again once we and the community are happy with their balancing."

WE, the community, WERE happy with the balanced changes from CCP Abathur.....YOU, CCP Nozh, changed it to make us unhappy with them. And all the while WE, the mothership owners, spent billions of isk for a ship that has and will remain broken after all the positive work, testing, and feedback towards it? It is YOU, the developers, who cant seem to get it right. YOU, CCP Nozh, have completely screwed up the titan, mothership, naglfar, and phoenix. THIS, capital warfare, is the most sought after pvp amongst most 0.0 players. WE, the ones who fly capital ships, have told YOU what we thought was right and wrong in these changes/fixes and yet YOU refuse to listen and/or respond to us. Do YOU expect us to just sit back and remain calm while YOU destroy the ships that we have spent so many months to fly? Convert that game time over to real life money @ 15 USD per month....in truth you are literally ripping us off. Change the isk value of a mothership to GTCs and convert those same GTCs to real life money and see how much you are ripping us off for....Is that any way to treat your customers? Do you really want to ignore your customers? Research other MMO's that aren't around anymore that were blackballed by the playerbase (I wont mention the companies b/c you ninja delete any that refer to specific ones) and you will find the #1 reason why they got blackballed is because the playerbase's feedback was ignored. History repeats itself and YOU should learn from the mistakes made in the past from other companies similiar to CCP. WE aren't telling YOU these things to troll or flame...WE are telling YOU these things because WE love the game and WE want to see it improved.


Nope; i don't want to see it. GTFO

Kalissa
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:41:00 - [914]
 

Having read this thread nearly everyone is on the same page, and considering you have IT alliance and Goons agreeing on something it's a fair indication to CCP that they fouled up.

The question I have is a simple one.

What was it about the changes that most people liked and had tested out on Sisi that made CCP decide they DIDN'T like? You have been so vague on this it's unbelieveable, people might actually understand more if you explained WHY you made the changes.

Thrud Valkyries
Minmatar
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:42:00 - [915]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.



Ok, you need to clear a few thing here, Nozh.

Fighter Bombers vs Phoenix - 15 FB with 3 TP on a dread?
Have you totaly lost it?

If the dread siege YOU CANT USE TPs ON IT!
So that number is totaly usless.

15 FB - Base Siege.... the MS is dead before you have time to do anything about that.
It will be one vollyed by the dread/titans.

Thanks, Nozh
You have totaly ********************* my weekend.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:42:00 - [916]
 

Could you change the bonuses on the nag back to a double turret damage bonus please?

5% damage 5% rof should be ok. It was like drawing blood from a stone trying to get those bonuses through in the first place, to have them undone at the shiny drop of a hat is kinda dis-curious.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:43:00 - [917]
 

Originally by: Kernok
"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.

MAKE

STATIONS

SPITTERS


we'll dock em up and kill the station humpers 1 at a time when they undock.


I prefer the term 'poopers' myself. Very Happy

Sannye
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:44:00 - [918]
 

So what excactly do YOU think the phoenix has as a role after your insane nerf to citadel torps, and giving a compleatly new launcher the long range ability?

Do you actually think anyone wants to waste capfuel on a utterly fail ship like the cruiselauncer phoenix? Or, even worse, a torpfitted phoenix?

None of them will ever be used again, reprocess the crap and get a revelation.

Would you at least TRY TO FLY THE FREAKING SHIPS before you present the pretty graphs that doesnt matter at all?

Try to hit a moving target, then try to hit one of the TP immune targets with any phoenix fits.

You have all your pretty graphs and base all your dev blogs on EFT crap fits - try log into the game and actually play a siege - you know, where the graphs doesnt matter, but real fittings do?

If theese changes go through on the live server, I cant see myself playing this POS anymore.

I have NEVER seen any online game, where the dev's are so utterly out of touch with the playerbase as this one - and I have never seen any dev as arrogant in his reply as the one in this thread. You put CCP to shame.

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:44:00 - [919]
 

Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
yep that graph makes 15 billion isk ships that can't dock with limited HP that relies upon glorified drones hideously unbalanced. why, after its drones got there, it'd have done as much damage to a dread as 2.5 dreads. can't have that!




Completely ignoring the fact that we are STILL getting Titans that have a weapon that does 400x the DPS of Dread in one button press. So this idea that motherships would have someone been this horrible balance monstrosity is laughable at best. Again, obviously Nozh has also never used fighters and only see the THEORETICAL DPS potential, rather than the PRACTICAL DPS potential, which are usually much different numbers.

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:44:00 - [920]
 

Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 20/11/2009 16:44:58
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



So why does your graph, VS A PHOENIX show damage using 3 target painters? 3 TPs on a shield tanked ship?!?

Who would ever do that, and let alone let you slap on 15 bombers and 3 TPs and not be in siege mode?

PretendRussian
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:45:00 - [921]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 20/11/2009 16:41:57
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided a single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.

Kaeser
Caldari
Invictus Australis
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:47:00 - [922]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


Answer this please Nozh and leave out the statistically flawed graphs, please.

Why further unbalance capitals by buffing some and inadvertently as a result further nerfing others by not providing an across the board rational balance to all capitals ?

T'Karr
Minmatar
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:47:00 - [923]
 

Edited by: T''Karr on 20/11/2009 16:47:03
Quote:

"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.



People are not happy about Moms being able to dock because they have a HUGE tank... They could take up all their armor damage then dock up, rep it up for FREE then undock again... This is HARD to do with smaller other classes of ships... You can gank a cruiser/BC/BS/carrier on a station after agro, a mom is a lot harder especially if it can dock up and then rep its armor back up in an instant for free.

yes docking games are stupid, but thats not what the original problem was, it was with the fact that something with such a big tank can be able to play docking games....

Solution to docking games: MAKE ALL STATIONS KICK OUT STATIONS.

Quote:

"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.


Im pretty sure this was discussed ages ago... why are you pulling this discussion back again? I thought CCP had already agree'd that titans would be in the middle of fleet fights, with a huge tank and DD'ing ships. Thats a pretty obvious role if you ask me. Now your saying that the Titans role SHOULD NOT BE DIRECT DAMAGE. Im pretty sure the new DD is as direct as you can get..... are you kidding me?!?!

WELL DONE FOR COMPLETLY IGNORING THE MOTHERSHIP PROBLEM THAT IS THE MAIN CAUSE OF ANGER FOR THE COMMUNITY You cant buff up Dreads and then buff up the Titans, but leave the Mothership behind, making it an even WEAKER ship.... honestly.... sort it out.

H Zebra
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:47:00 - [924]
 

Originally by: Kaeser
Originally by: The Mittani
You have not addressed the issues of the community at all. For weeks, the Abathur version of motherships was tested; feedback was given from players and listened to by the devs. Broad consensus was achieved.

You have not provided single rationale for abandoning the efforts of hundreds of players working in concert with Abathur and the other devs on the supercapital reform project.

Why is this being done? Why are you even here? Where is your credibility? You offer us 'fixes' for problems which do not exist.

The Abathur version of the supercapitals was the only one that was created with the input and feedback of players. That is what should be reverted to, and you remove yourself from the capital dev portfolio entirely.


Answer this please Nozh and leave out the statistically flawed graphs, please.

Why further unbalance capitals by buffing some and inadvertently as a result further nerfing others by not providing an across the board rational balance to all capitals ?

Voight Kampf
OEG
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:48:00 - [925]
 

Edited by: Voight Kampf on 20/11/2009 16:51:52
CCP Nozh, my child
Please answer one question: Did you actually participate in any 0.0 capfight? not on Polaris frigate but as a member of 0.0 alliance?

Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:49:00 - [926]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.


And yet you still have no ****ing idea what your talking about good job i hope you ruin this game and turn CCP into SEO.

Tor Vanderwal
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:50:00 - [927]
 

Quoting The Mittani

"He completely ignores the big issue here, which is that the community and the dev team worked together to achieve a supercapital reform package that was broadly popular and exciting.

For no reason - none has been provided - Nozh showed up and threw all the playerbase's work with Abathur out the window."

Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:51:00 - [928]
 

Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 20/11/2009 16:53:02
Originally by: Sannye
So what excactly do YOU think the phoenix has as a role after your insane nerf to citadel torps, and giving a compleatly new launcher the long range ability?

Do you actually think anyone wants to waste capfuel on a utterly fail ship like the cruiselauncer phoenix? Or, even worse, a torpfitted phoenix?

None of them will ever be used again, reprocess the crap and get a revelation.

Would you at least TRY TO FLY THE FREAKING SHIPS before you present the pretty graphs that doesnt matter at all?

Try to hit a moving target, then try to hit one of the TP immune targets with any phoenix fits.

You have all your pretty graphs and base all your dev blogs on EFT crap fits - try log into the game and actually play a siege - you know, where the graphs doesnt matter, but real fittings do?




No sir, you need to convo or evemail the other capship pilot and politely ask that they sit still so we caan shoot them, duh.


Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:51:00 - [929]
 

You dont seem to understand, Motherships- will NEVER use drone control units.

You just dont seem to understand anything. Its unreasonable that Capital Weapons cant hit Capital ships for full damage.

Kodiz
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
Session Changes
Posted - 2009.11.20 16:51:00 - [930]
 

Edited by: Kodiz on 20/11/2009 16:51:33
I have an idea lets all go ride bikes! Since there's no way those can possibly ruined by someone else right!?


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