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Cataclysm Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:39:00 - [661]

Edited by: Mioelnir on 20/11/2009 08:40:24
CONCLUSION to the "How It Should Be" Naglfar from this posting
Btw, I loved the 5 minute delay. Oh, and pending a few deletions, the link may or may not point to the correct posting.

This Naglfar is 8.9% better than the current Sisi proposal in a LR setup, but still 9.05% below current TQ stats which is comparable to other dreads. Its higher LR DPS compared to, for example, the Phoenix, gets countered by the reduced effectiveness of damage mods.

The SR setup is 4.95% better than the current Sisi proposal, but still -3.82% below the Phoenix and -10.45% below the "monster". With Torps not hitting the broad side of a barn, and the reduced effectiveness of damage mods inherent to the weapon systems layout, this works out just fine.

There, Naglfar fixed. Thank you, you are welcome.

[Edit]Fixed the link. But it looks like its still on the same page.

Millstone Industries
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:40:00 - [662]

Please scrap the whole supercapital concept. It was a gamebreaking idea in the first place. You realized it (too late, too little though) but now you just won't make the right conclusions.

Either nerf them so that they're not much more than e-peen extensions for rich players (like moms now) or give them a decent role that doesn't involve capital combat.

Speaking of roles (which you mentioned twice in your blog) how about a mothership does what one would expect from a MOTHERship? And no by that I certainly do not mean fighter bombers...

In your changes you altered the name to supercarrier because you apparently realized that they are nowhere near the common idea of a ms. Now that you feel the scarrier has no role how about you go back to the roots and instead try to change moms so they do deserve their name?

Just my 2cents

(Also I agree with the sentiment that nozh does not exist at all. It would explain everything about his (at times) erratic behaviour. He's just a meatshield for when the **** hits the fan.)

Lira Reib
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:40:00 - [663]

Originally by: Eniy Oh
Edited by: Eniy Oh on 20/11/2009 07:53:13

Admit your mistakes and DELAY DOMINION. Do not let stubborn pride force you to rush out an obviously unfinished expansion just to meet an arbitrary deadline.

I'm going to go ahead and quote this. The other stuff is good as far as I know, but call the capital changes dominion 1.5 and take a few months to come up with something that doesn't cause instant threadnaughts.

Destructive Influence
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:41:00 - [664]

can u make ms pilots dock in npc stations till u get a clue what u do with them?
im sick of sitting another 6 month in a ****ing pos and do ****all because u have no idea what u do!!

just waiting for the dev blog to read dominion will not launched.

Der Lemming
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:45:00 - [665]

How can your company afford this level of incompentency???

Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:46:00 - [666]

Originally by: nilie
can u make ms pilots dock in npc stations till u get a clue what u do with them?
im sick of sitting another 6 month in a ****ing pos and do ****all because u have no idea what u do!!

just waiting for the dev blog to read dominion will not launched.

You know if you held 0.0 space you might actually be able to use it :smug:

however if Motherships aren't changed at all, there's no way I'm taking mine even close to the edges of a POS shield if there's even the slightest chance a hostile titan (or samhandwich) may be within jump range.

The New Era
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:47:00 - [667]

Poor nag. Goodbye MS pilots, we barely had gotten to find out who you were again. On the bright side, I now know why my Phoenix kept dying so quickly in siege, it was being target painted. Only way to explain why in those non-existent short range fights I was dying.

CCP- Completely Competent People

Fire Nozh, stop censoring, listen to your customers

John Smedley- "Because we didn't listen. I think we were a little too arrogant as a company. We thought we knew what was best as a company, and we should have listened more. That's really the biggest lesson we've learned as a company in the last eight years. Listening to our customers is everything."

Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:49:00 - [668]

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 20/11/2009 01:03:43
Target Painters
***Do NOT Work***
on Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps


Astal Atlar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:50:00 - [669]

So we have no answer from ccp as always. But as we hoped dominion will bring fresh things to o.o It is doing the oposite.
No ms fun 2 dd killing ms is overkill,even with the 5-6 bil price of ms proposed, with the officer's mods ect it is still about 10-12 bil investment to get poped in 1 min yeah cool thing ccp.
Why should we stuck alts sitting in them on poses,and using them for pve asigning fighters ect. Fun why is almost 2 years training going to be worth nothing at all.
As for dreads thank god I fly revelation, phoenix is broken and naglfar gets kick in the teeth too.

Muadd Dibb
Universal Industry
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:51:00 - [670]

Im soo lost on what you are doing now CCP

You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back
You change it then change back

Need I go on

JUst cos a few pilots moan and whine that somthing they have will be nerfed you get all worried and change it

Damm CCP there are 50000 plus players in EvE NOT 450.

Stick with your program and make your changes and stick with it

When everybody went off on one about torps or the speed nerf 10 times as many ppl complained yet for some reason you still went trough with it. So my question is who rattled your cage enough to drop any changes.

I think your devs should stop mining and get it sorted and leave it alone and let ppl emmo rage quit and let ppl whine with there 9 accounts. If they dont like the game anymore go play WoW

I personally think the changes you made were slightly odd but we have to deal with that and just get on with it

EvE is still a great game

Oh btw if any devs emmo rage quit can i az there stuff Very Happy

Alar Tangor
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:54:00 - [671]

its still quite faszinating to watch my own posts scale 2 pages back by now though... only 21 pages to go till it reaches page 1... ill give it another 2h or so lol

also: please: some of you elusive devs: just say that you at least read this thread instead of just silently deleting stuff...

4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:54:00 - [672]

Originally by: iP0D
He and you missed something.

The "excellence focus" was the "post Dominion" focus, when CCP starts to develop more products within the EVE universe, interconnected yet seperate commercial products, leaving less time and resources for EVE, and thus the switch to less large expansions with less extensive feature sets but with a higher focus on the quality of those feature sets.

This was the manager talk about "EVE Forever". EVE will continue, but since they will expand on product lines it will receive less attention and focus then thusfar. To compensate for that they will continue to deliver free expansions, just smaller ones, with less stuff, but small pieces of good shiny which will be introduced "perfect".

The problem here might be that the product they already have is broken to hell and back. There are so many things not working or hardly working in eve.
Diverting majority of assets to a new product does not solve existing problems it just creates new ones for both old product and possible new one, not to mention the gamble of new product being a total fail.

Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:00:00 - [673]

Edited by: Fuujin on 20/11/2009 09:02:08
Hey CCP Nozh I'ma let you finish but

Target Painters
***Do NOT Work***
on Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps

So your theories in 'balancing' the citadel missiles are fundamentally flawed. Do the right thing: Delay Dominion until you have more things working than you had to "put off" due to the artificial Dec 1 constraint.

Thank you!

murder one
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:02:00 - [674]

Just... LOL.

Again it appears that CCP Nozh has no clear design document constructed for the changes he's implementing. You guys (the CCP dev team) are sitting around at the 11th hour and JUST NOW decide that you don't have a firm direction with which to proceed on Mom/SC changes?

The radical variation in changes being put forth by the design team is a solid indication that the team/person in charge has no idea what they're doing or where they're going with respect to the changes. CCP Nozh is once again trying to 'hero mode' it at the last minute and throw something together in the hope that it somehow works.

Well this time, instead of being in charge of T3 stuff that nobody yet owns and isn't that expensive or game breaking, he's now in charge of the most expensive and powerful ships in the game and he's totally screwed up the job. I would have thought that Torfi and crew would have had a tighter leash on his bunch, but I guess not. How does this crap even get past peer review? Does Nozh even submit daily or weekly reports for review? WTH is going on at CCP that this can happen at all?

Now we're going to be suck with no mom changes, but with the Titan changes going forward. Really? Now Titans are going to two volley a mom. What are the mom pilots going to do? Probably go to lowsec where they can operate yet not be threatened by Titan DDs. But my point isn't to lament the woes of lowsec with this post.

The manner with which CCP has conducted the development of the SC change is unprofessional and irresponsible. Yes, there is a myriad features that are really incredible that are coming with Dominion. But SCs aren't on that list.

Nozh was in charge of T3 in Apocrypha and look where that got us. Bland ships with only a few unique capabilities and we're still missing the 5th subsystems that were planned. Nozh barely made it out of that one alive and then CCP turns around and hands him even more responsibility? I don't get it.

Heck, for the T3 stuff Nozh didn't even have a design doc written up until a group of players wrote their own and sent it to the dev team themselves because they were so concerned about the well being of the game they love. Why let this kind of thing continue? Get someone else who can do the job, and do it properly. Supercaps isn't something to play the guessing game with.

Also, I think a lot of players would be VERY interested to see what the chain of command is regarding these supercap changes. Who's responsible and who's responsible for double checking their work, and who's approving it. Inquiring minds want to know.

Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:05:00 - [675]

CCP in "Doesn't know what it is doing ITExpansion" shock.

Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:10:00 - [676]

Target Painters
***Do NOT Work***
on Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps

Igor Epocci
Fringe Industries EMS
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:11:00 - [677]

Edited by: Igor Epocci on 20/11/2009 09:14:32
Edited by: Igor Epocci on 20/11/2009 09:13:54
so let me see if my carebear self understands this all correctly:
-titans are being relegated to bookends
-moms are still bookends
-moms are less useful than the rorquals they are parked next to
-best DPS from a dread is to throw it at someone

well crap. Between this and Sov, my hopes of breaking into 0.0 are more like x_X
I appreciate it.

no, really.ugh

maybe I could just fly a target drone...
oh, wait. I already do...Shocked

oh. um. Nozh? I knew that target painters don't work on the aforementioned ships/towers/etc.

Milano II
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:14:00 - [678]

Did somebody say Jumpgate Evolution will have a good dev team?

Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:14:00 - [679]

Hmm.. we all know that most Companies producing Games are recruiting their Developers from accounting and legal nowadays ..

I still don't understand why the working (IMHO pretty nice) Changes were changed, rolled back a mere two weeks before release.

I just don't get it.

Well maybe CCP will use the remaining time to fix important bugs like missing turret recoil animation instead,

Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:15:00 - [680]

CCp Nozh
"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

No they never happen at close range......

North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:15:00 - [681]

Originally by: Vile rat
"Dear Eve community:

In our effort to bring cool new content that we felt players would enjoy we fell into the same trap that numerous other game development companies have fallen into and for this we apologize. We came up with capital ships and they were clearly popular with the playerbase but we made a slight miscalculation when we introduced the concept of an alliance level supercapital ship. You see we never actually tested the effect that these originally invincible monsters would have on overall gameplay and we freely admit our rookie mistake. In our misguided attempt to balance the cost vs utility of these items we quickly realized that to make them worthwhile is to have a game breaking platform that ruined overall gameplay and destroyed any chance of mass alliance vs alliance warfare that is anything remotely close to fun.


We've realized that there is no way to introduce these broken items in any form into the game without making everybody unhappy so we are going to reimburse all owners of these items to their build cost and we will not introduce them into the game again.

Sorry for any inconvenience and we'll strive not to make such a mistake again. Also ignore any of our attempt to try and duct tape this broken concept into semi usefulness, that was just the effort of a few misguided dev's who while meaning well, didn't know when to just say 'ok this whole concept is dumb and we're cutting our losses'.

Best regards,

Your dev team"

No need to thank me, I can see the gratitude in your hearts.


Vile rat


٩๏̯͡๏)۶ = cool little angry man = :) me lol

Anyway this topic is fail.......
get rid of suppercaps totaly and give isk backs to the peoples and let them move there skills about a bit after years of training for them.

Eniy Oh
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:21:00 - [682]

Quoting myself, originally posted this here:

Apparantly it belongs here.

"Normal" game developers delay releases all the time. CCP should try it and stop with rushing an expansion which obviously still has many faults. Everyone who follows the dev blogs, spends time on Sisi, is part of a 0.0 alliance, reads the discussions, knows there's an incredible ammount of things wrong with Dominion. I'm not gonna detail that here, I'm just gonna assume people who agree with me have more or less the same information.

Releasing Dominion within 1,5 week from now with so many obvious flaws will have the potential of bringing EVE closer to MMO Death.

Maybe the corporate owners of CCP don't care. Maybe their marketing guys whispered in their ears that "there absolutely can't be any delay". Maybe competing space MMO's are rushing towards the limelight and CCP has to block their moves with a high-profile high-powered PR buffed expansion.

CCP: don't be tempted by external forces to ignore things you should fix internally! Also go back to two-way feedback between developers trusted by the community and the community itself. Maybe in your opinion it won't affect the bottom line much, but for us players getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about the devs and what they're trying to do is very important regarding our CONSUMER BEHAVIOUR: do we continue to buy this product or not? Are we pleased by the company's service? Do we have the feeling the company is taking his clients seriously?

At the moment, we, the consumer, are not being taken seriously.

CCP, make a good expansion and communicate with your clients more effectively. Recognize the fact that ****ing off your long-term subscribers, who've been with you for years, can be the ultimate recipe for MMO death. For killing your own child.

Anyway, I could rant a lot longer... I'm under the impression a lot of people know very well what I'm talking about.

I'm simply calling here that the CSM put forward to CCP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, the very simple idea of POSTPONING the release of Dominion.

And let CCP developers without - or at least with less - time stress get it right. You made us wait for WiS/Incarna for like 3 years, we can wait for a better 0.0/supercap patch a bit longer...................

Edit: if you don't believe this is not a troll check my posting history. I never speak up on Eve-o unless I have something to say which I deem to be important. So please treat this post seriously.
Another edit: this is my personal opinion and doesn't reflect what my corp and/or alliance thinks. This is me, as a PAYING CUSTOMER (I pay for 5 accounts), bringing this issue to the CSM.

Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:23:00 - [683]

Edited by: Gnulpie on 20/11/2009 10:49:36
Can we please get a dev in charge who HAS A CLUE about the game??

"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."
Capital fight ALWAYS happen at short range!

"In order to allow the XL Turrets to be viable on other ship classes..."
What other ship classes?? Titans?! You said they should be logistic beasts.

"Due to the changes made to XL Turrets, Citadel Missiles/Torpedoes and projectile turrets, the Naglfar became an absolute monster."
Enough comments on that in this thread already. Just shows that obviously that dev either cannot understand his own changes or that he is just to lazy and doesn't care about them and makes things up out of the blue.

"The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential."
Target painters do not work on structures, supercapitals or sieged capitals.

"As we said, roles are what matter."
Okay, then tell us what roles you propose for the carrier, dread, mothership and titan. Because I haven't heard A SINGLE word about that so far.

And I don't really want to comment about the fact that we had a nice working solution for those supercapitals thanks to Abathur's good work together with the players. Then suddenly out of the blue Nozh appears, destroys everything, changes everything to the worse and makes everything a complete fail so that a nice part of the expansion must be cancelled (balancing supercapitals). Yeah, great work there Nozh and great game CCP for letting this guy ruin AGAIN (it is not the first time) some interesting stuff. No, I won't comment, I would get only upset.

Blue Republic
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:23:00 - [684]

I really lost count how often Eve has died Rolling Eyes

The Kan
The Circle
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:27:00 - [685]

thank you for reversing the moms change, now we can be insta-pop'ed by titan

give the moms a HP buff or imunity to the ddd so we dont drop like fly's, this is nuts!!

Aequitas Veritas
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:28:00 - [686]

Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 20/11/2009 09:29:45
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 20/11/2009 09:28:44
CCP what do you loose out on by implementing what Abathur has suggested for Dominion and lets see how things evolve? Doesnt keep you from making changes again in a month or two and everything is better than the situation we have now. Use the watered down version that can launch 10 or 15 fighterbombers and 20 fighters (limited through bandwith). Keep the clone vat bay. Continue the price as it is now and increase the HP suggested. You'll get a ship that ppl will use untill you figure out what roles you want for the different ships.

Same goes for Titans - they are currently mobile jumpbridges that will at most be used in their current form to do drivebys with meds filled with sensor boosters to gank a few capitals before returning to the safety of posshields. There is no incentive for putting them on the field. They need their 200% damage pr level or they will not be used at all on the field, with or without HP boost.

So Motherships
- Same cost as today
- HP boost
- Limit number of fighterdrones to 10 + DCU's through bandwith and not number of drones launched (still 20 fighters / drones)
- Keep the clone vat, ECM, EW-immunity
- No dock

- 200% damage to guns / level or these ships wont be used for anything but jump bridges and I sure want to see these babies on the field so they can be killed

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:32:00 - [687]

Hey guys, I thought target painters didn't actually work on sieged Dreads, POS, MS or Titans, can someone confirm this please?

Rolling Eyes

Zaiyo Modi
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:32:00 - [688]

People complaining that a mothership is too vulnerable to a titan have their priorities wrong im sure. Are capital ships meant to be single player assets? I would say yes and NO. It's ones loss anyway, but that shouldn't be dictating the game mechanics by insisting on the one guys shiploss.

Imo, there is no real scale of balance. And everything should be viewed in context of this game being a multiplayer game, with existing game mechanics and player base. So, one might have to realize that using a mothership in any and all situations might be a bad idea.

I can understand the horrible loss, with having ones expensive capital ship blow up. Time to harden up.

One flaw I believe is there in eve online, is the notion of pitting a ship against another ship for the sake of "balancing" the ship stats.

/me start to play a sad tune on a violin

Jarnis McPieksu
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.20 09:34:00 - [689]

Originally by: Alar Tangor
and again: if goons, IT AND AAA all agree on one topic there is a strong chance that there is a problem somewhere that needs to be addressed...

...and NC.

It is cats and dogs... end of the world etc.

Posted - 2009.11.20 09:41:00 - [690]

... this blog would be far more usefull if it contained actual ship/weapon stats, instead of EFT-style pseudo-analysis.

Like, you know, what's the actual cooldown timer for new DDD, are any ship bonuses changed, etc.

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