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NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:49:00 - [601]
 

Right now, I'm training Citadel Torpedos 4, and after that, Minmatar Dread 4 before finishing up with Cruise Missiles 5 for those fancy new capital missiles. Once that's done, I'm gonna train up Caldari BS 5 so I can also plug in the Caldari Dreadnought skill. My next neural remap is somewhere next summer, after I am supposed to finish Nidhoggur training. Man, I wish I was one of those Mothership pilots/speculators that got ****ed around on this. That looked like such a happy problem, comparatively.

Facepalm
Amarr
Battlestars
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:51:00 - [602]
 

This expansion is garbage. Just delay it, shatcan all this garbage and start from scratch. Seriosly, I'd be ecstatic about a "patch" -- not expansion, just a single patch -- that nerfed DDs like they should've done years ago.

Besides that, what do we really have to look forward to? Everything else is all jacked up garbage that you know they'll end up reworking 10x over, all the while making us suffer through it in the mean time.

Sooshie
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:52:00 - [603]
 

WTT: NYX for Faction BS's.

Ivan Shenovich
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:04:00 - [604]
 

If CCP Nozh is a trolling acct it's bloody well done (other than jerking around your income base)

If CCP Nozh is for real and something happened to CCP Abathur,

1. Nozh should be moved away from capital portfolio
1.a Nozh doesn't seem to know how target painters work
1.b Nozh doesn't know how cap fights work
2. Abathur's supercapitals, the ones the players tested and approved should be the ones implemented
3. Ignore 1, just move him away from EvE and anything related. Goons are terrible at EvE. He is terrible *for* EvE if the last month is any indication.
4. I thought T20 would be the pinnacle of my distaste for CCP (Does he still work there? If so does he still post? If so what name does he post under?
5. Free CCP Abathur

Still think it's a troll, though.

Sannye
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:04:00 - [605]
 

Phoenix is utter crap after this "expansion"

Can we have a SP refund? All the skillpoints are compleatly wasted, as NO FC will EVER field an utter crap ship like that.

I would rather have 5 RR battleships on the field than 1 phoenix and the 4 TP frig (witch is needed after the insane EXP radius nerf for the phoenix to give any damage)

Of cause, you can give up the torps and use cruise - but for what end ? Their damage is so low, that a few battleships will have higher impact that fielding a dread.

Just remove the phoenix and citadel torps allready - maybe we could get some sort of refund of the skills if it was just removed.

Alar Tangor
Caldari
Decadence.
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:10:00 - [606]
 

its quite interesting to watch this thread get shorter and shorter really.......

come on... some dev has to post already, this way the thread most likely would move from "enraged mob" to "sensible discussion" pretty fast

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:10:00 - [607]
 

I'm sorry, but I have to make these points:

You MUST get a handle on the specific roles of Dread, Carrier, Super Carrier, and Titan... and how they counter balance each other.

In most players minds Super Carriers will always be Mother Ships, and Mother Ship conjures the mental image of a huge ship devoted to the transportation and support of an invasion fleet while still being well able to defend themselves with massive waves of fighters and a huge capacity to absorb damage. They should be devoted to the support of their own fleet, and be highly effective at killing enemy support.

The name Titan conjures the image of a lumbering monstrosity that slowly and majestically surveys the field of battle, shrugging off huge amounts of damage while unleashing tremendous firepower and the occasional "death ray". They should be devoted to the task of destroying enemy cap fleets, and be feared for their reputation of being nearly un-killable.

Titans should be the key to killing Mother ships.
Mother Ships should be the key to enabling fleets to kill Titans.
Their capabilities should reflect these roles.
Mother Ships should work best in a fleet environment and/or in combination with other Mother Ships.
Titans should not require nor even be able to receive benefit from Carriers/Mother Ships.

Either allow Target Painters to work on the targets suggested in this blog, or give Mother Ships a module that will have a similar effect on targets that conventional EW will not effect (or a special ability that allows them to use conventional EW modules on some of these targets).

DO NOT ignore Super Carriers in this expansion. If the original rework is deemed to cause problems as Super Carriers become more common in a few months then make a adjustments to their special abilities to tone things slightly. Whatever you do, do it fast.

Balance bandwidth issues to allow more fighters to be launched than fighter bombers. Do not balance this to the point where Super Carriers launch fewer fighters than Carriers do. People need to feel that Super Carriers can launch and control more fighters that Carriers can. Preferably tweak the stats on Fighter Bombers in preference to nerfing their numbers overly much.

Just my 2isk...











Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:10:00 - [608]
 

Target Painters
***Do NOT Work***
on Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps


٩๏̯͡๏)۶

Ash Bringer
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:14:00 - [609]
 

Ok I'll tell the truth about motherships

Take out RR capabilities of Super carriers.

So;
1- Carriers still will be usefull
2- There wont be any EW resistant Super Spider Tanks that doesnt die.
3- Scarrier + Titan combo will not be the ultimate combo. Actually there wont be such a combo but just coincidence.
4- Dreads will be happy as they can still pawn carriers (triaged or not)
5- Scarriers will be happy. Still moving and pawning capitals and still have huge buffer to remote rep from carriers
6- Carriers will be happy, still usefull
7- Support will be happy. still can jam or kill carriers.

Magic rule take out the Remote reps from motherships.

Kwa Zulu
Minmatar
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:16:00 - [610]
 

If you want to revert changes please let that guy loose on the old cap jump effects

Flaming Lemming
Caldari
Puppeteer Press
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:21:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: Flaming Lemming on 20/11/2009 06:21:49
Originally by: Alar Tangor
its quite interesting to watch this thread get shorter and shorter really.......

come on... some dev has to post already, this way the thread most likely would move from "enraged mob" to "sensible discussion" pretty fast


This seems fair..just someone SAY SOMETHING! Maybe you can at least take the edge off of the enraged mob. Just deleting posts will make things worse.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:23:00 - [612]
 

just delay dominion already, its the smart move.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:27:00 - [613]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/11/2009 07:25:09
Thanks for the devblog.

Although it's a bit unfortunate to postpone the mothership change, it's probably the right decision.
I guess the number of motherships started to climb very fast and was about to reach an alarming level. Ah well, just a guess.

Regarding XL turrets, I would've liked to see some more complex balancing around ship+weapon instead of weapons only. It would be a little bit more interesting that way. When one ship gets a RoF bonus (Minmatar racial trait) and the other one gets a simple damage bonus, the first turrets need to be a bit weaker than the second. Etc.
I also doubt, like some others, that close range capital fights are as rare as you make it sound.

Apart from that, guys please stop the personal insults on Nozh. This is not constructive.
At least try to be unfriendly and polite. It's possible, trust me.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:32:00 - [614]
 

Originally by: Trazis
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Trazis
Will citadel cruise missiles require training of cruise missiles to 5 to use?

This would be a pretty bad move on ccp's part imo as the nag already is the most skill intensive, slapping another 30 day train time on there really doesn't seem fair. Now nag pilots have to train 60+ days more minimum then moros/rev pilots do...

I'm assuming, and going out on a limb here that ccp knows you can't target paint towers sieged dreads or supercaps. So assuming they have some sort of bonus to the phonix/nag where they can get a special bonus allowing them to tp the un-tp'able in the works that leads me to a question.

theyve said that yes, you will need cruise missile five for citadel cruise missile launchers. now naglfar pilots have to train three skills to be the worst dread


*halts training on minmatar bs 5... looks at phonix and the all lvl 5 shield skills he already has...... starts training amar bs 5


Psst...Phoenix is Caldari not Amarr....

Kel Arkir
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:33:00 - [615]
 

/me has the urge to personal insult Nozh tho

This must be some form of bad joke. Not implementing atleast the very basic upgrades like EHP boost and Jumprange boost means with Dominion the MS will be nerfed even further?
Announcement not even 2 weeks before Dominion?
I am lacking words to describe my anger Confused

paik
Minmatar
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:34:00 - [616]
 

LOL I got forum banned for roleplaying in a video game forum.

CCP Dominion is terrible your dev Nozh is not very good and doesnt understand the game content he is changing.

lolzrelgions
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:35:00 - [617]
 

With a rag in fleet you can literally signature tank sieged dreads.

Jack Sparroxx
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:44:00 - [618]
 

Edited by: Jack Sparroxx on 20/11/2009 06:46:30
Well the current MS have no place on the the cap battle field. thats not secret, and with the titan chnages actually going ahead, then MS sure as s.. never will be fielded. With other words, it will be even more broken now.

So since they arent giong to be buffed this time around, then the MS is more then ever reduced to a baseship. I liked the original idea on the MS changes. And so did just about every one else.

This will hopefully give ccp the time to make a tier 2 carrier and keep the MS in the game with out reducing it to a mere carrier. When thats said, I woudl really like to have some sort of explagnaition on why they didn't want to push the original buff ideas from seelene? I know you DEv guys dont have too, but with all the **** flying around on this topic, I think it would be a really good idea for you to tell us why.. At least from a PR perspective

Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:50:00 - [619]
 

Nozh, I have a few suggestions for ways to make dominion less terrible

here are some changes I would like to recommend.

Here are some of my ideas:


-Change Polycarbon Engine Housing and Nanofiber Internal Structure to affect mass instead of a split bonus to speed and agility.

-Make Warp Scramblers NOT turn off microwarpdrives.

-Double the effectiveness of webbers so a Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I or equal % webs decrease speed approximately 90%

-Make higher meta level microwarpdrives increase the speed boost that they give.

-Make Interdictors have higher base speed.

-Make Battleships have higher base speed.

-Reduce Frigate base speed.

-Increase the amount High-grade and Low-grade Snake Pirate implants affect speed so that a full hg set is around 40%

-Move CY-1 and MY-1 Implants out of slot 6 to slot 7 and slot 9.

-Change the Skirmish Warfare skill to affect speed instead of agility.

Sorted.

MirrorGod
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:52:00 - [620]
 

1. Nozh should be moved away from capital portfolio
2. Nozh doesn't seem to know how target painters work
3. Nozh doesn't know how cap fights work
4. abathur's supercapitals, the ones the players tested and approved should be the ones implemented

Isil Rahsen
Gallente
Ferrum Superum
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:53:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
The new version of the Citadel Torpedo follows the same trend as other unguided missiles. The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential. They do considerably more damage than their missile counterparts, with reduced range and velocity.

If ever there was clear evidence that Nozh should not be in charge of balancing a paper bag, this is it. Instead we get no changes for motherships, but still get changes for titans that will ensure we never see moms fielded when they can be blown away so easily. To top it off the Nag gets reverted to it's ****ty split weapon bonus form and becomes a ****ty dread again. Phoenix also gets skull ****ed. This is just hilariously bad decision making, based on an obviously flawed understanding of game mechanics. CCP Abathur did a much better job with the original changes. While they were not perfect they are leaps and bounds better than the abortion that dominion is becoming.

EveFairy0
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:55:00 - [622]
 

Edited by: EveFairy0 on 20/11/2009 06:58:34
- Mom improvements scrapped - lol (and I almost started saving isk for one, mabbe i'll buy some ibises with that) Edit: give them the HP and jump range bonuses or they'll still say sat on a pos until you figure some proper role for them.
- Naglfar getting double nerfed (new set of guns [cruises], losing proper turret bonuses) - lol (why not just make it 3-turret ship like everything else, jeez)
- lol, how do capless guns help with anything, you could just "balance" it with the ship having less overall capacitor
- "With a single Gyrostabilizer it overtakes.. " - lol, like when the moros doesn't use mag stabs, as in never (besides, what does it help when Nag is split weapons which leads to totally different problems with fitting damage mods)

Nice work on the turret balancing tho, i guess. But more importantly, what do we use capitals for in dominion, apart from hotdropping or trying to take the random moon with some decent goo in it? And, will the deathray work on towers?

Trazis
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:58:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Trazis
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Trazis
Will citadel cruise missiles require training of cruise missiles to 5 to use?

This would be a pretty bad move on ccp's part imo as the nag already is the most skill intensive, slapping another 30 day train time on there really doesn't seem fair. Now nag pilots have to train 60+ days more minimum then moros/rev pilots do...

I'm assuming, and going out on a limb here that ccp knows you can't target paint towers sieged dreads or supercaps. So assuming they have some sort of bonus to the phonix/nag where they can get a special bonus allowing them to tp the un-tp'able in the works that leads me to a question.

theyve said that yes, you will need cruise missile five for citadel cruise missile launchers. now naglfar pilots have to train three skills to be the worst dread


*halts training on minmatar bs 5... looks at phonix and the all lvl 5 shield skills he already has...... starts training amar bs 5


Psst...Phoenix is Caldari not Amarr....


Psst even with all lvl 5 shield tank skills rev is better still Rolling Eyes

p diddle
Posted - 2009.11.20 06:59:00 - [624]
 

Itt: what nazh would do
Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde
Nozh, I have a few suggestions for ways to make dominion less

-Change Polycarbon Engine Housing and Nanofiber Internal Structure to affect mass instead of a split bonus to speed and agility.

-Make Warp Scramblers NOT turn off microwarpdrives.

-Double the effectiveness of webbers so a Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I or equal % webs decrease speed approximately 90%

-Make higher meta level microwarpdrives increase the speed boost that they give.

-Make Interdictors have higher base speed.

-Make Battleships have higher base speed.

-Reduce Frigate base speed.

-Increase the amount High-grade and Low-grade Snake Pirate implants affect speed so that a full hg set is around 40%

Sorted.

Warp scramblers double as a web with a 90% speed penalty.
Regular webs are now high slots
Who uses interdictors? its all about HICs now days
Higher meta MWDs will give a higher speed boost at a 2x signature radius increase over t1 meta 0
Snake implants will now have a 4x drop rate through epic arcs

VonRijSE
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:00:00 - [625]
 

and again amarr is favored.

ccp, you want to redo those dps graphs when you also take in reload times.
wonder who will have highest range AND highest dps as well thanRolling Eyes

and either way, the verry little boost moros has over revelation on current screens in no way justifies the huge gap in range difference

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:06:00 - [626]
 

Read dev blog.

What the hell is this ****?

First reaction: This is a great troll. Checks date, not april 1, and says from CCP.

Must NOT be a troll then.

Second reaction. I'm being told as a nag pilot that nerfing the dread I fly to stats worse than it originally had when it was fixed - which was only the last major patch cycle, after quite literally years of complaining is great for the game. I'm also being told that the inferiority of autocannons can be fixed if I fit only 1 gyro, which means of course that I have 1 less effective slot on my ship than everyone else. I'm being told that close range capfights don't happen, despite the fact that of all the ones I've been on (I have 75+ cap kills) all but one of those happened at 50km or less, and in a K25 fight against solar fleet I could have hit the enemy capitals with a broadsword if I had brought one. Last but not least, I'm being told that painters are the future of cap warfare in eve, despite the fact that they don't generally work on capitals or POS related items, or the minor fact that most cap engagements occur at POSes and anything with a painter bonus would die instantly to POS guns.

I can draw only 2 logical conclusions from these facts above. Either the person who knows this knows less about capital warfare than a 4 day old n00b in eve-uni's public chat, or they do know, and assume that I'll simply believe any kind of bull they're telling me because they're telling me it.

Either scenario is deeply personally insulting, because it either means you think I'm a complete idiot, or that I should not expect a return on the time or money that I've put into this game. Considering that's 5 years of both, that's effectively insulting a customer to their face. I'll give you a tip from someone who actually works in customer service for a company that's considered to be very good at it: You don't insult your customers. Never. For some reason, it's generally bad for business.

As for the other changes, congratulations in making it seem that absolutely nothing you say can be believed from here on in. This is since you literally seem to have no idea what you're doing overall, and therefore since you have no clue or design document guiding your decision making process, you keep making radical changes with seemingly diametrically opposing goals. From now on no one will know if you come out with a major announced change if you actually mean it, or if you're just playing Lucy to Charlie Brown's attempt to kick the football again. In other words you've managed to destroy a large segment of trust your playerbase had in your company, effectively undermining the confidence that your customer base has that you can make correct decisions. I wonder what side effect that kind of thoughts might have.

I suggest you remove Nozh from anything having to do with capitals. Even if these ideas didn't even come from him and he's just your designated scapegoat for all of this, in general players now have 0 confidence in his work, and continued involvement will only make the situation worse. You can fix the current situation but you have a very short time to do so.

Time however, is wasting. I suggest you get working.

paik
Minmatar
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:07:00 - [627]
 

What was wrong with Abathur's blog? The community loved the changes.

Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:08:00 - [628]
 

:ccp:

/facepalm

So much fail in one single devblog.

Also, what is this; "Base tracking speed values of the XL Turrets will be decreased greatly to reflect their role as heavy weaponry."

Didn't we already explain once that yes, Dreads sometimes have to fire at battleships (out of siege). If you muck up XL turret tracking, Dreads will become lawn ornaments.

Battleships are already much more flexible (and cheaper to field - no jump fuel costs, much less ISK risked per DPS on the field) than Dreads. If you muck up with Dread tracking like this, nobody will field a Dread as battleships would eat them alive. In order to get a Dread vs. Dread fight, you need to have a scenario where fielding Dreads in the first place makes sense.

Right now, on TQ, it goes like this: "Large immobile targets -> drop a Dread fleet on them -> BS fleet can either try to take out a couple of individual ships while siege mode is active and possibly continue fighting once Dreads out of siege while taking considerable losses. To really respond, the enemy has to field their own capitals -> Dread fight"

Based on this, it sounds like the new plan is "Large immobile targets -> drop dread fleet on them -> BS fleet shows up speedtanking the lolXLguns at close range (where RR BS fleet excels) and takes the fleet apart (why drop your own dreads if BS do the job?) -> Dreads no longer fielded and we get to enjoy hour long BS pos/station/hub shoots"

Also, I'm not gonna even get started on the missile and split damage type stuff... it has already been said ten times over.

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:11:00 - [629]
 

Edited by: Garia666 on 20/11/2009 07:15:07
Originally by: The Mittani
The playerbase tested the new motherships over several weeks on SiSi and found them good.

Some genius put you in charge of Abathur's good work, and now you've not only screwed up all the effort that went into testing those ships, now there's to be no improvement at all.

Where is your credibility on caps? Who are you? Have you fought in a supercapital, lost a supercapital on the field?

Is this the new CCP, or the old CCP rearing its terrible, incompetent head?


hehehe goons suck

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.11.20 07:14:00 - [630]
 

CCP isn't known to cut features like this so late in the game. The only thing that comes close was Combat Simulators, which was never announced nor play-tested.

This isn't just a case of not being "able to commit". Ok, so it would be postponed to a subsequent patch(Dominion 1.1?), right?

CCP has been "proud" about it's SCRUM structure and how the individual teams commit to the task they work on. Given that the teams ought to be in their last sprint(1 Sprint = 2 weeks or so), only realizing that the planning(Nor the actual feature) worked out poorly this late in the game is simply inexcusable.

What happened to Abathur's mothership implementation? It had a huge sisi-testing session that yielded great feedback. Why was it killed?

It seems like anything Nozh touches is bound to fail. Look at T3 and how it was seemingly done during the very last couple of sprints. Aren't we still missing the last subsystems for that, by the way?


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