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Telender
Reblier Innovations
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:44:00 - [571]
 

Edited by: Telender on 20/11/2009 04:45:35
I agree that I think CCP should show some good faith for once and admit that none of this is going according to plan. I hope those at the top realize that this only has partly to do with the substance of the changes and a whole lot to do with the manner in which the changes were proposed and how feedback to those changes was responded to.

Posting from the top of page 22 in the persistently shrinking thread.

Tango Zulu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:45:00 - [572]
 

Originally by: Sebastian Su

To which almost every MMO in history has responded, "Oh yeah? Prove it." See post 542.


You sir, made the mistake of assuming post 542 would be post 542 for long. In the time it took me to find where your post went, you receded 7 posts.

Elvid Tanz
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:45:00 - [573]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

While we all appreciate that this is a very hot topic item we would urge you to be constructive and on topic with your feedback. Personal attacks, flaming and trolling will not be permitted and posts of this nature will be removed by the Community team and may result in a warning or ban. We want you to discuss this issue but it must remain on topic and friendly.

We would also advise you that posting "٩๏̯͡๏)۶" or "Free Abathur" are considered spam and will also be removed.




Questioning the competence of someone empowered to make decisions that affect you isn't trolling, is it? At least some of the posts made good arguments that there is some level of detachment from in-game reality.

Aveeva Serenity
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:47:00 - [574]
 

Quote:
Admit your mistakes and DELAY DOMINION. Do not let stubborn pride force you to rush out an obviously unfinished expansion just to meet an arbitrary deadline.



This. Or stop removing resources from eve for other projects.

I don't care about caps, but I do care about getting lied at as a paying customer.

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:48:00 - [575]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
It is funny how dumb the Eve community has become, as it thinks that all those changes that were brought by CCP Nozh (carrier nerf, speed nerf, missile nerf and now supercarrier mess) were his ideas or done by him. He's just the bad messenger, who communicates stuff that was designed and done by others or at least by a team.

Actually I have to gree with a poster above on the assumption that CCP Nozh isn't a real person but a char that is used by many devs when they communicate bad news. No one wants to be the bad messenger, since bad messengers are usually the first one to receive the beating. In Middle Ages the bad messenger was usually decapitated, today they drag him through the mire on the forums. The reason for making such non-personal poster char is obvious, comments about how bad and evil that non-existent CCP Nozh guy is, are therefore sheepish and simple-minded.


It's very easy to avoid such a beating. Man up, come forward, speak plainly and simply, admit your mistakes, lay out a path on how you're moving forward, and interact with your followers. Will they be frustrated sometimes? Yes.

Will they be ****ed off and waving the pitchfork if you HTFU and include them in the loop? Nope.

If a Dev, or a series of Dev's came on, right now, and posted on their mains, and detailed what happened, why it happened, and what their reasoning was..and then stuck around and answered questions until they had to go (posting that they were heading home or some such so we don't assume you've gone silent for no reason)..all this forum flame would go *poof*. No more PR nightmare. It's just a matter of time before this hits digg, slashdot, and all the MMO websites.

Zarlis
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:50:00 - [576]
 

aha bombers gone but the art dept used them on the Dominion splash on the front page oops.

Doc Imp
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:50:00 - [577]
 

I can't believe all the crying, obviously you guys missed the good in this blog. Clearly target painters are being boosted to work on capitals. Don't worry, I can use t2 target painters we're saved!

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:53:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
You now have over 20 pages of near-unanimous agreement that your balance efforts are a terrible idea, and that your non-answers are not acceptable. The solution is very very simple:


Admit your mistakes and DELAY DOMINION. Do not let stubborn pride force you to rush out an obviously unfinished expansion just to meet an arbitrary deadline.


Once you have removed the deadline, put Nozh to work on something less important (like level 1 courier missions), and listen to your players. Abathur's changes were 95% complete, with a little extra time before patch day, they could easily be finished and make Dominion the awesome patch it is supposed to be.


They announced the release date for Dominion literally before they even knew how the new Sov system was going to work. I wish I was kidding.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:56:00 - [579]
 

Good Call on the moms, abarthurs changes on the titans would be nice however im not greedy ;)

Telender
Reblier Innovations
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:58:00 - [580]
 

http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/features/revelations2/vid-ivar.swf


Everyone say hello to young Nozh.

Commander Tigre
Minmatar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 04:59:00 - [581]
 

I love how CCP is removing so many posts. I am almost more interested in why they feel the posts are bad and needed to be removed as opposed to addressing the questions that are legitimately posed in this thread.

Answer the questions that you want us to ask instead of wasting effort on removing posts that hurt your reputation.

Greatest Lottery
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:03:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
You now have over 20 pages of near-unanimous agreement that your balance efforts are a terrible idea, and that your non-answers are not acceptable. The solution is very very simple:


Admit your mistakes and DELAY DOMINION. Do not let stubborn pride force you to rush out an obviously unfinished expansion just to meet an arbitrary deadline.


Once you have removed the deadline, put Nozh to work on something less important (like level 1 courier missions), and listen to your players. Abathur's changes were 95% complete, with a little extra time before patch day, they could easily be finished and make Dominion the awesome patch it is supposed to be.


And send Nozh over to lucasarts. I'm sure he could fix SWG.Laughing

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:03:00 - [583]
 

Originally by: Aveeva Serenity
Quote:
Admit your mistakes and DELAY DOMINION. Do not let stubborn pride force you to rush out an obviously unfinished expansion just to meet an arbitrary deadline.



This. Or stop removing resources from eve for other projects.

I don't care about caps, but I do care about getting lied at as a paying customer.


Oh stop crying people.

Except for the horrific series of mothership changes almost all the ideas from dominion have been good, and I doubt most people would be able to honestly argue that it sounds more bad for the game than good as-is. Not like the game will be permanently frozen in place afterward, either.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:04:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Good Call on the moms, abarthurs changes on the titans would be nice however im not greedy ;)


Your Sig belies your post.

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:04:00 - [585]
 

Edited by: Schmell on 20/11/2009 05:08:51
Edited by: Schmell on 20/11/2009 05:04:33
Btw i like how are capital projectiles are clearly **** on all graphs Laughing

Quote:
The new and altered picture shows the difference in damage has been decreased, as well as a clear siege artillery falloff advantage.


OH TY VERY MUCH DEVS, now i know projectiles are not intended to have advantages.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:07:00 - [586]
 

sensible move this close in

angeleyess
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:15:00 - [587]
 

* troll comment removed - CCP Ildoge

Seriously though, it's a terrible plan to have potential changes, put them on SiSi, have a majority of the player base agree the changes are good and then say, wait no, we don't like these changes actually.

Azairen
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:20:00 - [588]
 

1. the guy should be moved away from capital portfolio
2. he doesn't seem to know how target painters work
3. he doesn't know how cap fights work
4. abathur's supercapitals, the ones the players tested and approved should be the ones implemented

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:22:00 - [589]
 

Edited by: Adam C on 20/11/2009 05:23:51
I admire CCP's determination to change the game up every year, more or less.

I'm 50/50 on the changes wholey on a personal level I don't much really care im just a player. I'll play the game regardless of its adaptations. I'm confident that a bad change to TQ would be amended after a while.

So basically right now CCP are saying they dont like capitals, they want to mess them up enough for players not to care about them, trouble is, is capital proliferation, not only that but ISK inflation.
Not only that but game mechanics, and development in a game that can not pass the community acceptance.

Can I mention handicapping the vision of capital warfare? How bad is it that I a player needs to tell CCP how they lost their vision for capital warfare in EVE ONLINE. That to me tells me that CCP suffered a negative development transition.


RISK VS REWARD CCP make capitals expensive. make them uber simple. nerf isk.

ive got the same stand point for aoe titans dds no need to remove it, make it insanely expensive!

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:23:00 - [590]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Currently on Tranquility, XL Turrets are balanced around Dreadnoughts. The tracking speed, damage output and performance of XL Turrets in general are modified significantly by the siege module as well as ship bonuses. In order to allow the XL Turrets to be viable on other ship classes, aside from the Dreadnoughts, various tweaks were required.


Aren't most weapons balanced around ships of equal size? I mean Battleship vs Battleship, Cruiser vs Cruiser, etc, with the only exception being the Stealth Bomber? So why would you want to mess up the Dreadnought vs Dreadnought balance?



Originally by: CCP Nozh
The new values give each weapon type a unique advantage. The Ion Siege blaster has the highest amount of damage, while lacking in optimal and falloff. The Dual Giga Pulse Laser has a range advantage. While the 6x2500mm Repeating artillery might look poor, the fact that it doesn't consume any capacitor must be taken into consideration. With a single Gyrostabilizer it overtakes the Ion Siege blaster in damage and has excellent falloff.


You do realize that the Naglfar only has 2 turret slots? It also has 2 missile turrets. So basically your killing it as a ship class. Obviously you've never trained for caps or flown one.

These changes are bad :(.

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Due to the changes made to XL Turrets, Citadel Missiles/Torpedoes and projectile turrets, the Naglfar became an absolute monster, not in a good way. The weapon bonuses on the Naglfar had to be adjusted to keep the balance intact.


You do realize the Nag was one of the worst Dreads prior to this :(. So basically your now nerfing it to make sure its the worst. Minmatar ships already require the most training as we have a lot of split turret/launcher ships a mix of armor/shield tanking ships, need drones etc. Why don't we take in the training time necessary for flying a ship with all its fitted weapons into its balance equation. A ship that takes more skills to fly should be stronger than one that takes less.

Originally by: CCP Nozh
The new version of the Citadel Torpedo follows the same trend as other unguided missiles. The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential. They do considerably more damage than their missile counterparts, with reduced range and velocity.


I suppose the qualifier many is meant to be a clever way to acknowledge that you know that you can't target paint ships immune to EW....like motherships, titans, and sieged ships....

Thus though I'm seeing above a big nerf to the Nag this is gonna be a huge nerf to the Phoenix. I suppose rather than trying to make the Dreadnoughts all work equally well it was rather decided to make them as poor a possible.


The good thing in this is the Titan changes in relation to the loss of the area of effect for a death ray. Should of been a death ray all along it was suggested the last time Titan's were balanced.

Motherships most folks other than the renaming of them were looking forward to Fighter Bombers and the general reworking of these ships. If you don't give them the hp buff then titans will one shot them..... Don't get so stuck on each different class must have a special purpose or its own niche, that rarely happens in navies, there are generally multiple classes that fit the same role especially during times of great war (WWI, WWII etc...don't look at modern navies). You unfairly limit your choices by doing so. It's perfectly fine for a ship just to be a bigger improved version of another ship....like the supercarrier just being a bigger carrier....


Red Rose
Thundercats
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:26:00 - [591]
 

did ccp ever play (not test) their own game? has anyone of those who worked on that changes ever been part of a great 0.0 campagin?

you ccp are the reason why my day will become bad ShockedShockedShocked

Danyael Tyren
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:26:00 - [592]
 

1. Nozh should be moved away from capital portfolio
2. Nozh doesn't seem to know how target painters work
3. Nozh doesn't know how cap fights work
4. abathur's supercapitals, the ones the players tested and approved should be the ones implemented

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:28:00 - [593]
 

Is it jsut me, or do the moros/revalation get OutDPS'd by a rifter now? Meanwhile the phoenix and naglfar fail to hit anything that's not a MWDing titan...

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:33:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: Xing Fey
Is it jsut me, or do the moros/revalation get OutDPS'd by a rifter now? Meanwhile the phoenix and naglfar fail to hit anything that's not a MWDing titan...
only if the titan is just idling with the mwd on and not actually moving

Trazis
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:34:00 - [595]
 

On a non troll post that I doubt ccp will answer I have 2 questions ccp still hasn't answered, or even addressed to my knowledge.

Will citadel cruise missiles require training of cruise missiles to 5 to use?

This would be a pretty bad move on ccp's part imo as the nag already is the most skill intensive, slapping another 30 day train time on there really doesn't seem fair. Now nag pilots have to train 60+ days more minimum then moros/rev pilots do...

I'm assuming, and going out on a limb here that ccp knows you can't target paint towers sieged dreads or supercaps. So assuming they have some sort of bonus to the phonix/nag where they can get a special bonus allowing them to tp the un-tp'able in the works that leads me to a question.

Seeing as the nag most of the time and the phonix all of the time are shield tankers..... where do they put the tp?

.... do you really want to drop the caldari DEDICATED SHIELD TANK SHIP to a 6 slot tank while giving the rev a 8 slot tank and 1/2-1/3 the train time on weapons... sure they have to drop a slot for a gank mod its still a 7 slot tank with out having to waste yet another slot to fill the dreaded em hole shields have.

Basicly the phonix has a 5 slot tank as it stands right now considering we will have to drop a place for an em hardener and drop a slot for a tp... is that really a good number of slots for a ship whose race entirely is based around shield tanks to have...



Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:35:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: Xing Fey
Is it jsut me, or do the moros/revalation get OutDPS'd by a rifter now? Meanwhile the phoenix and naglfar fail to hit anything that's not a MWDing titan...


If everything either has crap DPS or can't hit, that's balance right? Laughing

I had a lot of love for Nozh when he was listening to us in the projectile balance thread, but I've just been seeing massive swings in hyper-correction lately. This sounds bad, bad, bad.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:37:00 - [597]
 

Originally by: Trazis
Will citadel cruise missiles require training of cruise missiles to 5 to use?

This would be a pretty bad move on ccp's part imo as the nag already is the most skill intensive, slapping another 30 day train time on there really doesn't seem fair. Now nag pilots have to train 60+ days more minimum then moros/rev pilots do...

I'm assuming, and going out on a limb here that ccp knows you can't target paint towers sieged dreads or supercaps. So assuming they have some sort of bonus to the phonix/nag where they can get a special bonus allowing them to tp the un-tp'able in the works that leads me to a question.

theyve said that yes, you will need cruise missile five for citadel cruise missile launchers. now naglfar pilots have to train three skills to be the worst dread

Trazis
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:42:00 - [598]
 

Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Trazis
Will citadel cruise missiles require training of cruise missiles to 5 to use?

This would be a pretty bad move on ccp's part imo as the nag already is the most skill intensive, slapping another 30 day train time on there really doesn't seem fair. Now nag pilots have to train 60+ days more minimum then moros/rev pilots do...

I'm assuming, and going out on a limb here that ccp knows you can't target paint towers sieged dreads or supercaps. So assuming they have some sort of bonus to the phonix/nag where they can get a special bonus allowing them to tp the un-tp'able in the works that leads me to a question.

theyve said that yes, you will need cruise missile five for citadel cruise missile launchers. now naglfar pilots have to train three skills to be the worst dread


*halts training on minmatar bs 5... looks at phonix and the all lvl 5 shield skills he already has...... starts training amar bs 5

Severion Atarkos
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:42:00 - [599]
 

1. Nozh should be moved away from capital portfolio
2. Nozh doesn't seem to know how target painters work
3. Nozh doesn't know how cap fights work
4. abathur's supercapitals, the ones the players tested and approved should be the ones implemented

Trazis
UNKN0WN ENTITY
Posted - 2009.11.20 05:49:00 - [600]
 

You nerfed the damage mod on the nag =_=

So after that 60+ 30$ training time... you nerf their dps..... why? If you want people to pay you 45$ in trainng time just for the weapons on this ship let alone the 15$ on bs 5 and 15$ on jump drive skills and 30$ for decent support skills in gunner & missile..... you ask me to pay 105$ and sink 7 months dedicated training into flying a ship.... and you nerf it... without even an announcement thats up for discussion....

You give us a buff to our guns and ammo and in return make us train a bit more ok.... but then you stab us in the back with the nerf bat....

you coy little ***** ccp


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