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Sea Sharp
Posted - 2009.11.16 01:19:00 - [1]
 

So I've been scanning down and checking out wormholes recently and noticed that most of them (actually all of them, out of the 15 or so I found) are either already in use (onlined POS in system) or exploited (no sites left). Has half the Eve universe de-camped into W space or something? Anyone got any decent stats on W space exploitation in general? I would be interested to know.

Newbie Ned
Minmatar
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.16 02:33:00 - [2]
 

Similar experience! I think that perhaps the "deeper" WH space is less inhabited, but the basic stuff that you can get in from empire / low sec is pretty full. More, please!

Snowball Kate
Posted - 2009.11.16 06:24:00 - [3]
 

2 out of 5 WHs I've checked have had POSes, only 1 didn't have any sites... I guess its just luck.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.16 08:14:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 16/11/2009 08:17:00



Yeah, it's getting crowded. Means it's too easy, especially now that everything is documented and guide'ified as extensively as it is, so that any numpty can be a pro.

Come on CCP, make w-space living tougher, randomise, have sleepers bust pos's, make it deeper (new systems not connected to k-space), make some super-sicrit signature spawn at 257 au from a planet tough enough so the first 100 who try it get owned by the sleepers, randomise the spawns, and DO NOT copy this site to sisi whatever you do, but make sure its rewards are glorious. And....well, you get the general idea I guess.

Losmandy
Amarr
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.16 10:24:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Edited by: Qui Shon on 16/11/2009 08:17:00



Yeah, it's getting crowded. Means it's too easy, especially now that everything is documented and guide'ified as extensively as it is, so that any numpty can be a pro.

Come on CCP, make w-space living tougher, randomise, have sleepers bust pos's, make it deeper (new systems not connected to k-space), make some super-sicrit signature spawn at 257 au from a planet tough enough so the first 100 who try it get owned by the sleepers, randomise the spawns, and DO NOT copy this site to sisi whatever you do, but make sure its rewards are glorious. And....well, you get the general idea I guess.



So you didn't use information offered by others for your wh adventures, but deny the same chance to new explores.
Your statement implies you a self taught explorer maybe.Very Happy

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:57:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 16/11/2009 11:58:50
Originally by: Losmandy
So you didn't use information offered by others for your wh adventures, but deny the same chance to new explores.
Your statement implies you a self taught explorer maybe.Very Happy


Your sentence confuses me, but yeah, been there almost since launch ugh, with a couple breaks, and no, there were obviously not any guides, at all, at that time. I dunno what I'm denying from anyone though?

And yes, I would have preferred that CCP never copied W-space to sisi at all, and that no guides were available on w-space. That way, there would have been more of "the unknown" left at this point. Still not denying anyone anything that I've ever had. Too late now of course, all the secrets are out of the box for a long time already, so these are just my musings.


As it is, there's so much information already publicly available, and you can test and practice to your hearts content on sisi if you want, risking nothing. All that's missing is db sites with precise data (hp, dps, optimal, tracking, speed, orbit, cap, ewar, expvel/rad etc) for each sleeper, like we have on k-space rats.

It's come to the point now where I can...not solo, but multibox any sleeper site, and our corp runs through a whole bunch of the toughest ones in an evening, with the only dangers being gross ****ups, or larger hostile gangs. It's too ****ing eeeeasy, is what I'm saying. CCP should make it a bit tougher again.

POS's springing up all over the place, is a symptom/result of that.

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.11.16 13:11:00 - [7]
 

Class 6 Wink

Losmandy
Amarr
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.16 14:31:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Losmandy on 16/11/2009 14:32:35

Originally by: Qui Shon
Edited by: Qui Shon on 16/11/2009 11:58:50
Originally by: Losmandy
So you didn't use information offered by others for your wh adventures, but deny the same chance to new explores.
Your statement implies you a self taught explorer maybe.Very Happy


Your sentence confuses me, but yeah, been there almost since launch ugh, with a couple breaks, and no, there were obviously not any guides, at all, at that time. I dunno what I'm denying from anyone though?

And yes, I would have preferred that CCP never copied W-space to sisi at all, and that no guides were available on w-space. That way, there would have been more of "the unknown" left at this point. Still not denying anyone anything that I've ever had. Too late now of course, all the secrets are out of the box for a long time already, so these are just my musings.


As it is, there's so much information already publicly available, and you can test and practice to your hearts content on sisi if you want, risking nothing. All that's missing is db sites with precise data (hp, dps, optimal, tracking, speed, orbit, cap, ewar, expvel/rad etc) for each sleeper, like we have on k-space rats.

It's come to the point now where I can...not solo, but multibox any sleeper site, and our corp runs through a whole bunch of the toughest ones in an evening, with the only dangers being gross ****ups, or larger hostile gangs. It's too ****ing eeeeasy, is what I'm saying. CCP should make it a bit tougher again.

POS's springing up all over the place, is a symptom/result of that.


Agreed the 'deny' part was not quite correct. Just that your post 'suggests' that there are to many players in wh space who are there because of a plethora of information, guides etc.

Indeed CCP encourages this and even promotes guides to many aspects of the game on this very forum.

Incedentally I'm in a Kor-azor space wh atm and and yet to find a any player structures.YARRRR!!



Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.16 14:55:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Losmandy
Agreed the 'deny' part was not quite correct. Just that your post 'suggests' that there are to many players in wh space who are there because of a plethora of information, guides etc.


Yes, that is what I'm saying, and I have no doubt it is true. It's getting crowded, is how I feel about it.

CCP does indeed encourage guides... these days. Saves them writing any documentation Wink, something Eve has always been short on.

Of the 11 systems mapped and connected to "home" as of this writing, 5 are unoccupied. I.e. Less then half. If you've lived a while in W-space, you'll know that you don't actually "live" from the sites in your home sys, but of the ones in connecting systems. Therefore, >50% occupancy is too high.

More importantly (at least for me) the one and only place that actually felt a little like space (w-space), is being reduced to the same "ghetto neighbourhood" feel that the rest of Eve has.

Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
Class 6 Wink
Changes nothing. Without actually checking the numbers, it seems to me about 40-50% of C6 systems are occupied atm, and this percentage is quite rapidly rising. Our corp has visited over 100 C6 systems, iirc our "cartographer" said all but 4 of them, but I don't recall exact figures.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.16 15:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: "Myself, I'm that conceited"
Therefore, >50% occupancy is too high.


Just wanted to expand upon this a bit, since I suspect it might get misunderstood.

What the rising occupancy means, is that w-space will eventually stop being a place for smaller corps to thrive, because the bigger corps, like mine, will simply take any valuable sites you have. Of course only after attacking you, if given the opportunity. So then you'll get more and more bigger corps, because it allows security, until the smaller guys find themselves constantly outnumbered.

I don't want that to happen. But we are heading that way.

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2009.11.16 15:12:00 - [11]
 

WH space is now considered a success, I guess, as it was designed for small corps to have a piece of Eve they couldn't get with existing 0.0 space locked up by large alliances.

I've taken some time to train up to use an Orca as an exploration base, and as a Lone Wolf, myself and my two alts are just about ready to test the WH waters.

I have noticed a lot of POS's in WHs I have explored, one even had a carrier parked inside. Hopefully, there is some rotation of WH's where access to unexplored and unsettled territory still exists. Just have to keep trying, but the thought of going back to doing missions is certainly not an alternative.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.11.16 15:26:00 - [12]
 

I've been in 6 wormhole systems over the last week. Only two had POS operations going.

One was a 4 person corp, who I observed gas mining from linking systems. The other was a 2 POS, 40-60 person corp operation that looked very well supplied.

Of the 4 empty systems - one was a class 3, two were class 5, and one was class 6.

We tend to enter and exit wormhole space from 0.0 - it seems we find the deeper, less crowded systems this way.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2009.11.16 15:48:00 - [13]
 

This is not a hard and fast rule, but does seem to serve as a general guideline.

The higher the class of the system, the less likely it is to have residents. This is both due to the innate difficulty, and the logistics involved. Nowhere near the full amount of wormhole dwellers can handle class 5-6 sites, so that's a much smaller subset. Plus you have the time involved in scanning a route out to take materials out to sell and import fuel and stuff you need.

Also, any system that connects to hi-sec is far more likely to be inhabited than one that connects only to low-sec or null-sec. The majority of wormhole dwellers seem to be based around hi-sec, so you don't see nearly as many coming from the wilds.

Deathswiper
Posted - 2009.11.16 17:00:00 - [14]
 

I think the assumptions here are a little far reaching...

Yes, class 2 and class 3 sites that have a static hi sec entrance are pretty well occupied at this point.

We still find class 1's unoccupied, but that's probably because it can be hard to justify the operating costs of occupying one (due to the entry limits on mass). That's not true if it has a static to another wormhole though.

We still find tons of class 4's and up that are unoccupied. I think your issue is that you are exploring in hi sec. Unless you get lucky and find an unoccupied wormhole that doesn't have a static, but a temporary entry to hi sec, you are really going to have a tough time finding one that's unoccupied.

I don't see this as a problem, even for the solo player. You have several options...

1. Farm class 1's
2. Be social...just because a site is occupied, does NOT mean you will get insta-popped, if you talk to the occupants. Many are industrial and only care about grav/mag/rad/lad sites, and are fine with you popping combat sites. Others are the complete opposite (they farm sleepers and dont mine or touch ladar sites).
3. Don't be social and watch your directional...many of the "occupants" aren't actually online in the wormhole, and you can take out one or two sites without permission. Just be paranoid. And realize you'll lose some ships, but with a few nanoribbon drops and using t1 bc's, you'll still come out ahead.

Or, get yourself a small corp and move to a class 4. They are still out there, just don't have static hi secs.

If you are specifically trying to take over a class 2/3 with a hi sec static, you may have a lot of searching to do. And if you find one that is unoccupied, I might make you an offer for it you can't refuse :)

Hope that helps a bit...Good luck!

Sea Sharp
Posted - 2009.11.16 18:03:00 - [15]
 

Good advice death. I don't have access to 0.0; at least not the kind of access that would allow me to get organised and into a decent WH with the required ships. Ok I could do class 1's or 2's with a zealot and single scanning frig, but I'd quite like to mine rares as well, so a POS is needed. I can just about make it to low sec (0.1); perhaps I'll have better luck there.

Arik VanClaw
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2009.11.16 18:59:00 - [16]
 

What if there was a mechanic that made the POS structures more vulenerable and thus not require a fleet of dreadnaughts (that can't hardly make it into the WH anyways) to dislodge. I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of anomaly that would make the POS forcefield inoperable in wormhole space. Modules would still work as normal, just you'd need an active and responsive defense force, instead of a semi AFK corp that just comes on to save their station after the forcefield goes down.

Maybe that is a ludicrious thought but I'd love to see a little more risk involved to setting up shop in a WH. As it is, unknown space is becoming quite crowded and any 3 man alt corp can drop a tower that is hell for any other small corp to bring down.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2009.11.16 19:00:00 - [17]
 

I went into WH space... found it to be a bore... so i left... Laughing

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.11.16 19:38:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sea Sharp
Good advice death. I don't have access to 0.0; at least not the kind of access that would allow me to get organised and into a decent WH with the required ships.


Everyone has access to 0.0, that's the beauty of lawless space. You should team up with some good scouts. Access to 0.0 can be gained by begging permission from those who think they own it, or it can be gained by just learning how to fly there without "permission".

Xonus Calimar
Amarr
CaeIum Incognitum
Posted - 2009.11.16 19:51:00 - [19]
 

Personally, I think POS's shouldn't have been allowed in wormhole space in the first place. Although there may be many logistical difficulties in maintaining such a structure, it's definitely much easier that it should be.

I liked the whole "unknown" theme behind the wormholes. You don't know where you are, who is in the system with you, or what to expect from an encounter with Sleepers. To me, having a POS ruins the fun of it.




Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:30:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
What if there was a mechanic that made the POS structures more vulenerable and thus not require a fleet of dreadnaughts (that can't hardly make it into the WH anyways) to dislodge. I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of anomaly that would make the POS forcefield inoperable in wormhole space.


WHs are too good as is, if you also let the big corps easily pop the POSes in there all you'll get is 0.0 reloaded.

Bodega Cat
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Xonus Calimar
Personally, I think POS's shouldn't have been allowed in wormhole space in the first place. Although there may be many logistical difficulties in maintaining such a structure, it's definitely much easier that it should be.

I liked the whole "unknown" theme behind the wormholes. You don't know where you are, who is in the system with you, or what to expect from an encounter with Sleepers. To me, having a POS ruins the fun of it.






Actually, I disagree.

In my opinion, the fun is in being a frontiersman who has to setup an outpost, and take a small trusted crew in with him and completely become self sufficient. You have logistics guys, combat guys, miners, industrials etc. You need everyone to participate and specialize in lots of things to work the hole accordingly and to be honest, without that expansion, I doubt I would be interested in playing EVE at all anymore. I could never go back to high sec mission running, and the odd silly station game war decs. In wormholes, you get to taste it all in the good spirit of the game!

This type of content has proved to be very successfull and lends itself very well toward the "exploratory" allure of space based gameplay. Man has always looked toward the stars with the compulsion to master it, and wormholes allows us to play with that end user fantasy of it.

Now that being said, yea good things are not always meant to last. I'm sure their will come a time when we'll all say "remember way back when wormholes were FUN and new and challenging". CCP does need to think of a way of honoring the spirit of exploring the unknown, and come up with some sort of way of keeping this type of content fresh and unpredictable. That could just be wishful thinking though.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
What if there was a mechanic that made the POS structures more vulenerable and thus not require a fleet of dreadnaughts (that can't hardly make it into the WH anyways) to dislodge. I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of anomaly that would make the POS forcefield inoperable in wormhole space.


WHs are too good as is, if you also let the big corps easily pop the POSes in there all you'll get is 0.0 reloaded.


Quite the opposite. The big 0.0 corps don't operate well without all the infrastructure and towers. The harder it is to keep towers running, the fewer large groups you'll see in w-space.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.16 21:01:00 - [23]
 

The quoted numbers on occupancy rates are way off for higher class WHs. We have a static C6 which is closed several times a day. I would say around 20% or less of C6 systems are inhabited. It does scale pretty linearly down with the class of wormhole, and it does seem like way more than 50% of systems with highsec connections are occupied at this point.

I also would love to see Class 7 and 8 sites with the difficulty ramped up some. Even the hardest C6 sites aren't all that hard anymore, unless you have stuff like your voice comms go down (cost us a couple of T3's last week).

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.16 21:49:00 - [24]
 

Today I personally watched two new pos's being set up. Both already had their shields up when I noticed them, and were anchoring mods. Key Tech Limited and Laude Magnum.

Just thought I'd share that info, so you can perhaps see why I feel the way I do.

Xonus Calimar
Amarr
CaeIum Incognitum
Posted - 2009.11.16 22:11:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Bodega Cat
... to be honest, without that expansion, I doubt I would be interested in playing EVE at all anymore. I could never go back to high sec mission running, and the odd silly station game war decs. In wormholes, you get to taste it all in the good spirit of the game!


Have to agree with you there, was pretty much the same thing for me. (Although, to be perfectly honest, CCP had me in the bag when they introduced the Magnate back in Empyrean Age.)

The way it looks to me so far, W-space is kind of the "end game" for PVE, and 0.0 is the "end game" for PVP. Although both areas have capacities for PVE and PVP, most of the people you meet in W-space are probably more concerned with Sleepers and salvage, while most of the people in 0.0 will be more concerned with their sovereignty and killboard.

Although setting up an outpost on the frontier and establishing a settlement in previously unoccupied space might seem cool in real space, I'm against it in EVE. In this game, we have a limited number of systems and spaces for people. I wouldn't mind if someone set up a cabin in the forest somewhere and occasionally hunted. But, if everyone set up a cabin in the forest somewhere, it would cease to be a forest. If everyone and their alt is able to settle in W-space, it would just become like any other space, and variety is the spice of life. Wink


Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.16 22:21:00 - [26]
 

I've stopped doing WH's for this reason. I'm not moaning as it shows what a good idea they are (no bubbles, camps, blobs or capital ships=win for some of us) Hopefully they will add more in.

I also suspect some of the POS's have been abandoned. It would be good to have a way to remove these as they are effectively untouchable right now and wont get destroyed.

Shana Matika
Posted - 2009.11.17 12:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
I've stopped doing WH's for this reason. I'm not moaning as it shows what a good idea they are (no bubbles, camps, blobs or capital ships=win for some of us) Hopefully they will add more in.

I also suspect some of the POS's have been abandoned. It would be good to have a way to remove these as they are effectively untouchable right now and wont get destroyed.


That's more or less a general problem, not just in WH.
A good solution would be:
  • In known space the POS will be delivered to the nearest Office or the HQ of the corp with a fee from the SCC/Concord.

  • In WH space the tower will just unanchor and everyone can Redeploy/Scope this tower or the tower despawn

This should happen after more then 40Day without interaction (add fuel for example). When i remeber right a tower can hold fuel for about 30 days max so after about 1 week after the fuel run out the tower count as lost. Could think of another mini profession here: Scan and scoope abandoned towers.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.11.17 14:06:00 - [28]
 

One of my corp-mates needed to head into "civilization" for some shopping yesterday, so we found a route from the class 5 we're in through a new class 5 and then to 0.0

The new class 5 was totally empty and packed full of signatures. So far on this expedition that's 2 occupied and 5 unoccupied systems.

JonShannow
Caldari
Regante
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:03:00 - [29]
 

I have to agree, its been feeling a little crowded lately, been here since a day or so after apoc launched and luckily we can collapse the one regular wh we get with no real problems till we find an unnocupied wh.

I seem to remember ccp stating that it would be easy to add more systems, maybe if we start up a petition they would be able to add some more space.

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:07:00 - [30]
 

Yep, I've noticed the same thing. The last 4 WH's I probed out (from 0.5 sec space) were all either occupied or empty of signatures.


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